11-30-2020, 08:25 PM | #1 |
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Stage 3 Dinan FBO. Looking for extra Umph
Hey everyone, my 2016 M235i's current setup engine wise is Dinan S3 tune, Dinan CAI, Dinan FMIC, and M-performance exhaust.
I'm looking to expand on this with charge pipe, and catted downpipe and maybe a different tune. What are y'all's recommendations as a path forward? Would I gain a lot by switching to Bootmod3 or JB4 at this point? TIA |
11-30-2020, 09:00 PM | #2 | |
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https://www.2addicts.com/forums/show....php?t=1122931 You should definitely get a charge pipe and downpipe though. The DP will add some power (~15-20whp/20-25wtq) and more importantly, reduce heat/load on the turbo.
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11-30-2020, 09:32 PM | #3 | |
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Poochie9104.50 |
11-30-2020, 09:57 PM | #4 | ||
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Do you have a preference on brand? I'm leaning towards VRSF or FTP |
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11-30-2020, 10:03 PM | #5 | ||
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I'll definitely take a little more oomph or "umph" for nearly no extra cost when available. Hah |
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11-30-2020, 11:00 PM | #6 | |||
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12-01-2020, 06:44 PM | #7 |
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I'm not seeing how the numbers work out to where I'd be seeing more from going Dinantronics Stage 3 to the flash Stage 1. Peak numbers are pretty far off from what I should potentially be at at the crank. Running 93 octane. Are the stage 1 flash numbers with an OEM vehicle?
Plus there's always the $1100 difference in initial Costs if I were to do the trade in offer. |
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12-02-2020, 08:30 AM | #8 | |
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Next thing to note is that the DINANTRONICS data was derived from a hub based Dynapack dyno in California whereas the Flash data is derived from a Mustang dyno in Alabama and VERY differnt times (years apart) on different vehicles so a direct comparison is difficult at best for absolute numbers. The best course is to compare gains as those numbers should be independent and consistent regardless of ending/starting points. So if you are just looking at the base numbers (peak and max) below then they look very similar and within margin of variance given different cars, times/seasons, dyno's, etc. DPT Stage 3 vs Stage 1 Flash Peak HP - 395 @ 5500 RPM vs 384 @ 5500 RPM Peak TQ - 417 @ 3000 RPM vs 414 @ 3500 RPM MAX HP gain - 99 @ 5000 RPM vs 92 @ 4500 RPM MAX TQ Gain - 104 @ 5000 RPM vs 115 @2500 RPM However, when you start to dig into the numbers/graphs a bit you see where the "robustness" of the flash actually shines. Where the DINANTRONICS power curve steadily improves to redline the flash tune is actually delivering much more power earlier on in the power band and holding it there for the duration. Upper RPM power is great but for a lot of folks is meaningless since you don't spend so little of your time in that RPM window during daily driving. The flash delivers so much more power starting at ~2500-4000 RPM where DINANTRONICS does not and is simply more meaningful for the average consumer as they spend most of their time in that part of the power band. In short the flash essentially gives you the upper end power that the stage 3 DINANTRONICS would give you but adds in a much healthier bottom end. A quick look at a few RPM point for illustration... DPT Stage 3 vs Flash Stage 1 HP Gain at 2500 RPM - 28 vs 55 TRQ Gain at 2500 RPM - 58 vs 115 HP Gain at 3000 RPM - 49 vs 63 TRQ Gain at 3000 RPM - 87 vs 110 HP Gain at 4000 RPM - 41 vs 74 TRQ Gain at 4000 RPM - 59 vs 111 Hopefully that helps and doesnt create more confusion. |
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Poochie9104.50 |
12-02-2020, 02:19 PM | #9 |
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I think flash tunes are the ideal way to go, but if you have the Dinantronics Stage 3, I'm really not seeing the point to flash tune at this point.
As I posted before, an M235 6MT with the Dinantronics Stage 2, DP, intake, exhaust, and CP made between 366whp and 383whp and 381wtq and 394wtq on a Dynojet depending on gear and in pretty terrible ambient conditions (85 degree temps) AND without an intercooler. Adding an IC would have allowed the M235 to make more power. Also, an M235 6MT with the Dinantronics Stage 1 and exhaust made around 340whp and 360wtq on the Dynojet and in terrible ambient conditions and no IC. https://www.2addicts.com/forums/show....php?t=1126138 I underline Dynojet because in my experience with modding cars since the mid-1990s, Dynojets are without a doubt the most consistent dynos on the market due to the way they measure power and calculate correction factors. You can compare Dynojet numbers fairly reliably and draw fairly accurate ballpark comparisons about what your car may make in terms of power based on what others have seen with their Dynojet runs. For example there are a number of Dynojets showing bonestock M235s making around 295-310whp and 315-330wtq depending on transmission and drivetrain with the Xdrives making the least and the RWD 6MTs making the most. Same goes for M2s. They consistently make around 330-340whp and 350-360wtq on the Dynojet. I have a 6MT M235 running the Dinantronics Stage 2, DP, M2 lower airbox, MPE, and CP. I'm running newer 245/35R18 Michelin Pilot 4S tires and I've got an LSD. I find the car to make way more than enough torque in the low to midrange. Even with the tires warm, I can sometimes light the tires up from a 40mph roll in 2nd. 1st is sketchy from a roll. I actually have better 1st gear traction when launching from a stop. When temps dip below 60 and I'm still on the 4S tires, I can induce spin from a 3rd gear roll at 3000rpms. 1st and 2nd gear are a handful. Point being, I not sure adding more lower rpm torque is necessary. More importantly, the extra torque a flash tune might add below 4000rpms won't be used in a racing situation as full power is not realized in 1st gear due to the dynamics of a turbo and all upshifts land well above 4,000rpms, especially in the automatic cars where upshift entry rpms are near and beyond 5,000rpms. That means even with added torque in the lower rpms, there will be no measurable improvement 0-60, 1/4 mile, etc. When the S55 M3/M4 came out, they had a ton of low and mid range torque. This made the cars quite a handful and snappy as they came in and out of boost. As the years went on, BMW adjusted the boost strategy to make the torque delivery more linear. The result was a better driving car that actually proved be quicker on the race track because it was easier to control. Just something to think about because linear power delivery was what Dinan touted with Dinantrponics piggybacks. I haven't seen a dyno for a Dinantronics Stage 3 M235 or 3 series with the N55 EWG. Given the numbers we've seen with the Stage 2 M235s, I would imagine a Dinantronics Stage 3 M235 with a DP, CP, IC, intake, and exhaust is going to be seeing north of 380whp and 400wtq. That's Stage 2 flash tune territory. If it were me, I'd first be looking into a 300 cell catted DP. I think you'll be quite surprised at the difference in power and improved driveability, turbo response, and sound.
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Last edited by XutvJet; 12-02-2020 at 02:27 PM.. |
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Poochie9104.50 |
12-02-2020, 02:38 PM | #10 |
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More power and less money = flash Less power and more money = dinan Get the charge pipe and get the cat outta there and you're good to go on a stage 2 flash. |
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12-02-2020, 02:54 PM | #11 | |
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Not sure I'd agree with less power with the Dinan though. Dyno numbers seem to show otherwise.
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12-02-2020, 05:42 PM | #12 |
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Bm3 and mhd will do everything the dinan tune will but won't require you going to a tuner everytime you want to change something. You can change settings and reflash yourself with a phone or a laptop. Another benefit is everyone is running one or the other, if something comes up there's tons of people to help. With the planned mods running the stage 2 tunes from either place will get you close on the stock turbo to what dinan has showing with their big turbo.
Last edited by jb-slow; 12-02-2020 at 05:47 PM.. |
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12-02-2020, 06:10 PM | #13 |
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I have the Dinan P3 package on my 2016 M235i and couldn't be happier. Power and torque is a monstrous improvement over stock. And the exhaust sound is magnificent. Such a low growl when you start it up. It's great.
Stage 4 tune, intercooler, bigger turbo, exhaust, intake, etc. And you should've gotten a new charge already, just so you don't have to worry about failure of the stock charge pipe.
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Dinan Stage 4 Tune (Big turbo, exhaust, intercooler, etc) Dinan lowering springs, bump stops, front and rear sway bars. |
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12-02-2020, 08:42 PM | #14 |
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Stage 3 Dinan FBO. Looking for extra Umph
DINAN- you made some great points and really highlighted the benefit of the flash over the S3. Although the initial numbers you wrote for the 335i/435i don't exactly line up with the numbers I'm seeing in the graphs on the website. That's neither here nor there though. I see how the lower end power will be experienced by your everyday driver such as myself. I rarely touch 5000+ rpm. Although to quote XutvJet, I already feel like have have a ton of power down low. Breaking the tires loose with my 245's MPSS is no problem in first and second. So I'm not sure if more lower end is what I'd be wanting, but still something to consider.
For those suggesting going to another flash, I hear your points of the support system behind others, which is why I'm asking. But that's the beauty of Dinan as of now with it on my car for a few years now, I haven't need any assistance except for updates. As well as very similar power. 🤷🏻*♂️ probably will be eating my words now. Haha. I know I 100% need that charge pipe, getting it on order very soon, and based on what I'm reading from those with a lot more knowledge than I have. I'll very likely be trying to get a dyno performed on my car to see real numbers before I leap to another flash. Not sure how it works if I want one before DP and one after... pay twice I assume? |
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12-02-2020, 09:30 PM | #15 | |
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12-03-2020, 12:11 PM | #16 |
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OP - I have the FTP charge pipe and it's been great. It comes with all the o-rings and C-clips as well.
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12-03-2020, 12:23 PM | #17 |
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I think a lot of people assume since the Dinantronics is a piggyback, it has some wonky power delivery the JB4s were famous for. That couldn't be further from truth. Since the Dinantronics patches into most of the DME harness, it considers a multitude of sensors and readings to determine the appropriate and safe power delivery. The JB4 only taps into about 4 sensors and doesn't have computing or analytical capability, much less the build quality of the Dinantronics.
I bought my Dinantronics Stage 2 about 1.5 years ago and it was used (2 years old at the time). It's been flawless. I got it for $500 and would have never paid list price for it (would have gone flash tune). I had the Dinansport prior and while a great mod for the money, power delivery could be a bit abrupt in the lower rpms and sometimes inconsistent. The Dinantronics Stage 2 has very smooth, OEM like power delivery. Power doesn't hit like a sledgehammer, but it's more than enough power to blow the tires off from a roll in certain conditions and the car is way more powerful than stock in any situation and rpm. 60mph+ acceleration is impressive and is where I really notice the difference. It's like riding a wave of power. The negatives are lack of datalogging (I use a Torque App), no way to determine true boost being made, no optional tunes other than to switch to Stage 1, and a pretty sensitive accelerator when in the Sport throttle setting. The Dinansport did this too and it sometimes makes it hard to drive the 6MT smoothly (been driving manuals since 1989). If I were to flash tune (quite likely at some point), I'd go MHD. If I'm going to flash, I want the control. IMO, BM3 tends to push the power limits a bit too hard. Too many people have fueling and driveability issues with the BM3 Stage 2 flashes. The MHD is more conservative and focused more on driveability and reliability.
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Poochie9104.50 |
12-05-2020, 02:43 PM | #18 | |
Luxury at the redline :)
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Everyone just immediately jumps on the DINAN is shit bandwagons because, let's be honest, they are fixated on the price tag but as they say; you get what you pay for. I don't know about newer DINAN products, since they recently changed ownership, location and staff. However, I can concur that the F-Series Dinantronics ECU is just as effective a flash tune, plus you have the benefit of not having altering the original factory software or possible trigger a tamper code. Just know, not everyone can be as open-minded as us. BTW, my Dinantronics was free but I recognize quality and given the opportunity, I would pay full price for one, any day over some aftermarket re-flash tune that pushing the motor to the edge of reliability and traction limits but that's just me. 🤷🏻 |
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K2daA086.00 |
12-05-2020, 09:09 PM | #19 |
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12-05-2020, 09:21 PM | #20 |
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Poochie - appreciate the video, that's a great synopsis of Dinan products. I honestly love my current tune, and love the spark of appreciation for Dinan that this thread accidentally sparked. That's hard to find on these forums as most are anti-Dinan from my perspective.
I was, and am seeking additional power from my car, but based on the information provided it seems I'm at a good place once I do the bolt-ons I mentioned without replacing my turbo. |
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Poochie9104.50 |
12-09-2020, 12:13 PM | #21 |
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For what it's worth, I switched from Dinantronics Stage 2 to their flash tune when it first came out and I can say it was probably one of the best ~$100 (labor to remove Dinantronics) I've spent on my car. The car pulls MUCH harder and the power and delivery just feels 'healthier' and more consistent
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