[aaaaah]

Question, if I was to do this, why would I not put the Etons front and rear? I have the HK setup. Otherwise I'd be looking at Focal ISC100s or Morel Maximo Ultra 402s, or the suggests JL Audios instead.

Viffermike

[ChrisFulton]

Originally Posted by aaaaah

Question, if I was to do this, why would I not put the Etons front and rear? I have the HK setup. Otherwise I'd be looking at Focal ISC100s or Morel Maximo Ultra 402s, or the suggests JL Audios instead.

Viffermike

I've been wondering the same thing.
Is using the JL or other speaker in the rear just a cost consideration?
I think that the Eaton B 100 XW would be a direct fit in the rear?
Is there a reason that a component speaker in the rear is not ideal?
When I look at a high end speaker like the Morel Hybrid Integra 402, they have a rather larger crossover thingy. Where would you mount that?
Do the stock HK speakers and the upgraded Eatons for the front not have a crossover thingy?

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by ChrisFulton

I've been wondering the same thing.
Is using the JL or other speaker in the rear just a cost consideration?
I think that the Eaton B 100 XW would be a direct fit in the rear?
Is there a reason that a component speaker in the rear is not ideal?
When I look at a high end speaker like the Morel Hybrid Integra 402, they have a rather larger crossover thingy. Where would you mount that?
Do the stock HK speakers and the upgraded Eatons for the front not have a crossover thingy?

To answer these questions (which will hopefully answer those of aaaaah ):
At the time this thread started, Eton did not make a 4-inch coaxial that matched the Eton component set, and honestly, components in the rear are totally unnecessary unless you're building a reference-level system. While selmeralto was considering this upgrade, I suggested the JL Audio C2-series coaxial to him as a speaker that would likely match the Eton's timbre and output fairly well. Turns out it was good advice.

What you ideally want to do is use the same exact speakers -- same brand, same line, same series, same generation of that series -- in the front and in the rear. When this is not possible, your next best bet is to use an equivalent from the same brand. For instance, if you install Morel Hybrid components in the front but don't want to mess with components in the rear, your best best would be a set of Morel Hybrid Integras, or maybe even some Morel Tempo Integras.

When neither of the above is possible or desirable, things get more complicated because you'll need to pay attention to speaker specifications between models to maximize system compatibility. But beyond that, you'll also need to learn what you like in a speaker's 'sound' and apply that to practical sonic considerations: What brands have a 'sound' you're likely to dig, what does and doesn't work well together, etc. The only way to do that is threefold:
- Go listen to as many broken-in brands as you can, preferably in a car and NOT a showroom
- Learn about the different types of drivers, what they tend to do well (and not), and what other types of drivers they tend to match well with
- Ask good questions to people who know how to talk about sound objectively (i.e., who are not trying to sell you something).

All of that stuff above is how I was able to suggest the JL C2 coax to go along with the Etons even though I'd never heard the Etons.

As for the crossovers: most people mount those somewhere inside the door on the fronts; not sure where you'd mount them in the rear, but there's plenty of room underneath the bulkhead that holds the rear speaker deck. Note that if you install an amp with channel crossovers or a DSP unit with crossovers, you do not need to use a standalone crossover unit. This is known as running "active" speakers.

Oh, and one more bit of advice: have fun learning and listening.

[aaaaah]

Ok, so what I read from that is that in the beginning there were no matched Eton speakers for the rear shelf beyond the existing B100N component set. Though now they make a B100XN coaxial.

And because having separate tweeters in the rear isn't really that necessary, the extra money for the component set wasn't worth it.

So then the next best substitute was chosen that might match the Etons was selected, which helpfully saves money.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by aaaaah

Ok, so what I read from that is that in the beginning there were no matched Eton speakers for the rear shelf beyond the existing B100N component set. Though now they make a B100XN coaxial.

And because having separate tweeters in the rear isn't really that necessary, the extra money for the component set wasn't worth it.

So then the next best substitute was chosen that might match the Etons was selected, which helpfully saves money.

You got it.

[ChrisFulton]

Viffermike, that was an excellent explanation and I (we) REALLY appreciate it!
If you don't mind, a couple more . . .

Originally Posted by Viffermike

As for the crossovers: most people mount those somewhere inside the door on the fronts; not sure where you'd mount them in the rear, but there's plenty of room underneath the bulkhead that holds the rear speaker deck. Note that if you install an amp with channel crossovers or a DSP unit with crossovers, you do not need to use a standalone crossover unit. This is known as running "active" speakers.

So do the stock HK speakers and the Eaton replacement speakers have a "crossover" or are they "active" because the stock amplifier has "channel crossovers?"

Is the JL Audio 600/6 six-channel amp that you installed running the front speakers "active" or "passive?"

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by ChrisFulton

Viffermike, that was an excellent explanation and I (we) REALLY appreciate it!

My pleasure, y'all!

Originally Posted by ChrisFulton

So do the stock HK speakers and the Eaton replacement speakers have a "crossover" or are they "active" because the stock amplifier has "channel crossovers?"

There is certainly a crossover network somewhere in the system, but it is not user-adjustable, nor is it really desirable for any speakers other than the OEM HK ones. We don't even know what the crossover specs are regarding frequency, slope, etc. The OEM one will work OK with replacement 2-way component speakers (separate woofers/tweeters), but an aftermarket set with a passive crossover included will likely (but not always) operate far better with its own crossovers installed -- even with the OEM crossovers still operational.

Even so, that last point is a primary reason why component speakers should ideally be used on conjunction with an aftermarket amp -- so any DSP in the OEM system (a portion of which are surely software-based crossovers) is eliminated. You can run aftermarket components only, as many have done with the Etons and others, but it is not ideal.

Originally Posted by ChrisFulton

Is the JL Audio 600/6 six-channel amp that you installed running the front speakers "active" or "passive?"

I had it running passive because I didn't have components installed (I have a HiFi system). To run components 'active', you need to drive each speaker with its own channel, so that the two tweeters and two woofers in a 2-way component set would be driven by four of the 600/6's six channels.

[ChrisFulton]

Viffermike,

I learned so much from your last two responses. Again, I really appreciate it!

Given what you have said about crossovers, I have to assume that in an original HK system in a 235, there is a passive crossover somewhere in the wiring. So for example in the door, there is a simple passive crossover allowing different frequencies to the 4" speaker and the tweeter.
So the components in upgrades like the Eatons and the Bavsounds are still being supplied there respective frequencies from this crossover.

I must assume then that coaxial speakers have some sort of passive crossover built into them, sending different frequency ranges to the speaker and tweeter that sits on top of it.

If so, wouldn't replacing the rear shelf speaker in a 235i with the HK system which has a tweeter in the rear be somewhat less then ideal as you are just simply leaving the tweeter disabled, and if the passive crossover exists somewhere in the wiring between the amp and the speaker, isn't your new coaxial replacement speaker not receiving the full frequency range?

[BEM-S4]

Originally Posted by ChrisFulton

So the components in upgrades like the Eatons and the Bavsounds are still being supplied there respective frequencies from this crossover.

Not sure if this answers your question but in an HK car it's wired as follows: signal comes from car into mid, then from mid to tweeter. When you switch to Bavsound it's: signal from car to splitter cable, one end connects to mid other to tweeter.

[ChrisFulton]

Originally Posted by BEM-S4

Not sure if this answers your question but in an HK car it's wired as follows: signal comes from car into mid, then from mid to tweeter. When you switch to Bavsound it's: signal from car to splitter cable, one end connects to mid other to tweeter.

Interesting.
So in HK car there must be some sort of passive crossover in the wiring prior to where the Bavsound splitter cable connects?

[BEM-S4]

Originally Posted by ChrisFulton

Interesting.
So in HK car there must be some sort of passive crossover in the wiring prior to where the Bavsound splitter cable connects?

I'd call them and ask if Viffermike doesn't know for sure, I am barely following this conversation. I know what sounds good to me but the tech side of it is over my head. I THINK the stock HK mid has the splitter inside it, and accomplishes the same thing Bavsound does with the external Y-cable.

[ChrisFulton]

Originally Posted by BEM-S4

I'd call them and ask if Viffermike doesn't know for sure, I am barely following this conversation. I know what sounds good to me but the tech side of it is over my head. I THINK the stock HK mid has the splitter inside it, and accomplishes the same thing Bavsound does with the external Y-cable.

I really appreciate your answers/contribution.

Over my head too but after Viffermike's explanations I am beginning to understand enough now that: 1) the stock amp is not sending separate frequencies (channels) to the HK speakers/tweeters, therefore 2) there must be some sort of passive crossover somewhere.
If this is correct then, the Eatons and Bavsounds must be "using" this crossover.

If you replace the speaker/tweeter in the rear shelf of an "HK car," is this passive crossover located somewhere that your coaxial replacement speaker is now not receiving the higher frequencies that were being sent to the original tweeter that you disconnected?

[BEM-S4]

Originally Posted by ChrisFulton

If this is correct then, the Eatons and Bavsounds must be "using" this crossover.

That makes sense to me, but I outsource a lot of knowledge on this stuff and subcontract the "how" of all of this stuff. I can tell if something sounds good or not and that's about it.

On a convertible there are many fewer options since mounting the back speakers is much more problematic than a coupe. For that reason I started and ended my search with Bavsound - with their 100 day return I thought f*ck it I know it will work and if the sound isn't good I'll just return it.

I was really worried about getting creative with speakers I couldn't return if they didn't work in a convertible or sounded shitty.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by ChrisFulton

I really appreciate your answers/contribution.

Over my head too but after Viffermike's explanations I am beginning to understand enough now that: 1) the stock amp is not sending separate frequencies (channels) to the HK speakers/tweeters, therefore 2) there must be some sort of passive crossover somewhere.
If this is correct then, the Eatons and Bavsounds must be "using" this crossover.

If you replace the speaker/tweeter in the rear shelf of an "HK car," is this passive crossover located somewhere that your coaxial replacement speaker is now not receiving the higher frequencies that were being sent to the original tweeter that you disconnected?

Actually (now that I think about it) I'm fairly certain that the passive crossover on the HK components is within the woofer driver somewhere, which would explain the 'lead' wire that goes from the woofer to the tweeter. That means by uninstalling the OEM HK component woofer, you are also eliminating the crossover.

It makes sense because almost all coaxial speakers have a very simple crossover included as part of its cone wiring. All the HK components are doing differently from that is featuring an outboard tweeter with a wire harness that's 'detachable' from the woofer assembly.

Theoretically, the above also means you can run the HK tweeters with any crossover if you wire it into the system separate from the HK woofers.

[ChrisFulton]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

Actually (now that I think about it) I'm fairly certain that the passive crossover on the HK components is within the woofer driver somewhere, which would explain the 'lead' wire that goes from the woofer to the tweeter. That means by uninstalling the OEM HK component woofer, you are also eliminating the crossover.

It makes sense because almost all coaxial speakers have a very simple crossover included as part of its cone wiring. All the HK components are doing differently from that is featuring an outboard tweeter with a wire harness that's 'detachable' from the woofer assembly.

Theoretically, the above also means you can run the HK tweeters with any crossover if you wire it into the system separate from the HK woofers.

It's as if the clouds have lifted and I can now see the light.
This explanation makes perfect sense.
Thanks once more because I've learned a lot and feel more certain as I decide how I'll do my own upgrade.

[ChrisFulton]

OK, I've officially gone "crossover crazy."

On Eton's website it says that when upgrading the BMW system with the B100W speakers:

"Attention: For using the ETON UG loudspeakers directly with the OEM system / DSP amplifier, you had to use additional the B100 XHP crossovers."

http://www.eton-gmbh.com/en/products...uct/b-100-xhp/

Did anyone who installed the Eaton speakers use this thingy?

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by ChrisFulton

OK, I've officially gone "crossover crazy."

On Eton's website it says that when upgrading the BMW system with the B100W speakers:

"Attention: For using the ETON UG loudspeakers directly with the OEM system / DSP amplifier, you had to use additional the B100 XHP crossovers."

http://www.eton-gmbh.com/en/products...uct/b-100-xhp/

Did anyone who installed the Eaton speakers use this thingy?

That suggests that the OEM crossover for components is DEFINITELY within the OEM woofer, and that the B100W woofer does not come with one built in ...

... in fact, in looking at Eton's website, none of its sets come with a crossover -- even its coaxial sets. This is suspicious because a coaxial speaker with no internal crossover makes little sense on its face -- but then it makes total sense because an external crossover allows one to run the coaxial with any crossover you want and with any amp you want. So:

I'm now scanning the User Guide for the B100 series, and there's conflicting info. From Page 4 (emphasis added):
"We recommend using a 4-channel amplifier to operate our speaker and subwoofer system in semi-active mode. In this case two channels
will drive the midrange/tweeter door system with a build-in highpass crossover. The other two channels should operate the underseat subwoofer with a build-in lowpass filter."
This suggests that the Eton speakers have a high-pass filter built into them, which contradicts the recommendation that ChrisFulton notes.

Now, from Page 7:
"The midrange loudspeaker is equipped with two terminals. The first terminal is for the factory installed speaker cable, the second one is for the crossover cable. After connecting the crossover, you can plug in the tweeter cable. This feature allows you to build up a full active system if you wire an additional cable in the door. The tweeter is delivered with a mixed-up-proof cable crossover which is always connected between the midrange loudspeaker and the tweeter. Except in full active operation."
This is incorrect because a crossover is only active if it is being controlled from a DSP unit or an amplifier with built-in crossovers -- basically, something that has its own power. I think this may be a translation issue.

Anyone with the Eton components care to chime in?

[mburg]

I am joining in this conversation late and it may be that I am not fully understanding the crossover issue. I did the changeover to the Eton set-up in the doors of my 228i. The Etons came with an 'in-wire' capacitor(/), which I assume(d) functions as a crossover.

If I now look foolish, please pass me a donut (DOH!)

[ChrisFulton]

Originally Posted by mburg

I am joining in this conversation late and it may be that I am not fully understanding the crossover issue. I did the changeover to the Eton set-up in the doors of my 228i. The Etons came with an 'in-wire' capacitor(/), which I assume(d) functions as a crossover.

If I now look foolish, please pass me a donut (DOH!)

I appreciate your contribution and I'm just trying to understand the crossover location and how various aftermarket speakers work.
The info I found on the Eton website suggests that their speakers need an additional component (a special crossover) to work ideally with our cars.
Perhaps this is a mistake or a translation issue. IDK.

I think if it was an issue, people like yourself who have upgraded would probably sense that somethings wrong.

What do you think about the Etons? Do you think they are working properly?
How do you like the sound? Noticeable but small improvement, or BIG improvement?
Thanks for checking in!

[mburg]

I did the full changeover - disconnected center speaker, replaced fronts with Etons, back with JBLs, all as suggested at the beginning of this conversation. Change was night and day. Well worth the investment in time (not that much) and cash (not that much either).

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by mburg

I am joining in this conversation late and it may be that I am not fully understanding the crossover issue. I did the changeover to the Eton set-up in the doors of my 228i. The Etons came with an 'in-wire' capacitor(/), which I assume(d) functions as a crossover.

If I now look foolish, please pass me a donut (DOH!)

ChrisFulton Keep in mind that Eton has significantly broadened its product line since the beginning of this thread. It could very well be that mburg installed an earlier version of one of the component sets before Eton made a decision to sell them without the "capacitor", i.e., an in-line crossover.

Because Eton has since added several coaxial models without a built-in crossover -- which is a fairly unusual build, particularly for a direct-replacement speaker line -- I'm willing to bet this is exactly what has happened. Eton is plainly aiming its now-substantial product line to appeal to both:
- those installing its speakers to run with the OEM amp, and
- those installing its speakers to run with an aftermarket amp
And it is now giving buyers the option of purchasing an in-line crossover for OEM systems instead of including it with the sets to both:
- reduce the price of each system, and
- prevent user error: those who install the in-line crossover and run another crossover of some sort, not realizing what the in-line unit actually is.

Someone should verify all of this with Eton, but it makes total sense.

Bottom line for you, Chris: Buy that Eton crossover if you're installing the components. If you end up adding anything with a crossover at a later date (i.e., an amp with them, or a DSP unit), you'll likely need to uninstall those crossovers -- but only if you decide to use the crossovers in whatever you add.

[ChrisFulton]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

ChrisFulton Keep in mind that Eton has significantly broadened its product line since the beginning of this thread. It could very well be that mburg installed an earlier version of one of the component sets before Eton made a decision to sell them without the "capacitor", i.e., an in-line crossover.

Because Eton has since added several coaxial models without a built-in crossover -- which is a fairly unusual build, particularly for a direct-replacement speaker line -- I'm willing to bet this is exactly what has happened. Eton is plainly aiming its now-substantial product line to appeal to both:
- those installing its speakers to run with the OEM amp, and
- those installing its speakers to run with an aftermarket amp
And it is now giving buyers the option of purchasing an in-line crossover for OEM systems instead of including it with the sets to both:
- reduce the price of each system, and
- prevent user error: those who install the in-line crossover and run another crossover of some sort, not realizing what the in-line unit actually is.

Someone should verify all of this with Eton, but it makes total sense.

Bottom line for you, Chris: Buy that Eton crossover if you're installing the components. If you end up adding anything with a crossover at a later date (i.e., an amp with them, or a DSP unit), you'll likely need to uninstall those crossovers.

Excellent point. That makes sense.
I really appreciate all the help. I've really learned a lot!