[BEM-S4]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

And, it's predictable and explainable. For all sorts of reasons, justifiable or otherwise, we allow people below 25 with inherently not-yet-developed brains to drive cars. The periodic sad outcomes will always be with us.

http://nautil.us/issue/15/turbulence...frontal-cortex

Any correlation between that and being able to rent a car at 25 or just an odd coincidence? I cut my teeth driving a 2 year old Audi wagon then a 2 year old Volvo cross country (this was before the huge boom in SUVs). Thought it sucked at the time but would do the same thing if I had a young driver. Forgetting the "want a nice car work hard to afford it and appreciate it" logic which I am also a big believer in as opposed to handing kids very expensive cars, what's the logic behind getting a kid a car like an M235? I'm honestly asking. Dad's ego is the only thing I can up with, or I grew up poor so I want my kids to have nice things. Can't come up with a solid reason to get a sports car though. $50k spent on a fully loaded XC60 seems like an infinitely better idea.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by BEM-S4

Any correlation between that and being able to rent a car at 25 or just an odd coincidence?

Not a coincidence at all!! Insurance and car rental companies have this well figured out, and field data supports it.

[wjjkoevoets]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

And, it's predictable and explainable. For all sorts of reasons, justifiable or otherwise, we allow people below 25 with inherently not-yet-developed brains to drive cars. The periodic sad outcomes will always be with us.

http://nautil.us/issue/15/turbulence...frontal-cortex

Generally speaking, I think you’re absolutely right. There are so many irresponsible kids on the road causing all sorts of dangerous situations.

I would just like to point out that this doesn’t necessarily have to be the case for every 18 year old.

My first car was a RWD 136HP mid-engine convertible. Granted, in the US that’s not a very fast car. To put things in perspective, however, out of the 8 million cars in this country, only 1.5 million cars are faster OR have more HP. With a top speed of just over 125 MPH and 0-60 rating of 8.9 seconds most shit boxes on the road here don’t stand a chance. Not the most sensible option for a 18 year old, right?

I drove 95 miles a day with that wonderful, wonderful piece of British engineering (crappy interior quality, Rover K-series head gasket was complete shit, but that car was such a blast to drive, really amazing!). Never pulled off any crazy stunts or did anything stupid with it. And on an unrelated side-note: It actually had an oil temperature gauge :P

Heck, my parents had no problems lending me their 1 year old RWD MB E320 CDI with a top speed limited at 155 MPH and 0-60 rating of 6.8 seconds at the age of 18 (mind you, only 184,000 cars are faster OR have more HP over here!). Never pulled of any stunts with that car either, always drove responsibly with it. Still, not the kind of car you would let your 18 year old drive around with, it has every potential to be a recipe of disaster.

Now I’m 25 and driving an M235i (only 33,000 cars are faster OR have more HP!). Still not being an irresponsible road toddler. I’ve made it a sport to drive like a complete grandma in Eco PRO driving to work, doing 8.7l/100km or 27 mpg on a 13.5 mile trip, while people are hating me for driving slowly in a 6-cyilinder turbo when they're behind me in their 0.8l 2 cylinder turbo lol :P

Again, not everyone is irresponsible at the ages 18 to 26 (I believe that’s the age a brain is fully developed, generally).

Don’t get me wrong, there are plenty of idiots out there, being all cool in their cardboard tuned 92’ Honda CRX with noisy quad exhausts and zero wheel traction, but it’s definitely not everyone.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by wjjkoevoets

Generally speaking, I think you’re absolutely right. There are so many irresponsible kids on the road causing all sorts of dangerous situations.

I would just like to point out that this doesn’t necessarily have to be the case for every 18 year old.

My first car was a RWD 136HP mid-engine convertible. Granted, in the US that’s not a very fast car. To put things in perspective, however, out of the 8 million cars in this country, only 1.5 million cars are faster OR have more HP. With a top speed of just over 125 MPH and 0-60 rating of 8.9 seconds most shit boxes on the road here don’t stand a chance. Not the most sensible option for a 18 year old, right?

I drove 95 miles a day with that wonderful, wonderful piece of British engineering (crappy interior quality, Rover K-series head gasket was complete shit, but that car was such a blast to drive, really amazing!). Never pulled off any crazy stunts or did anything stupid with it.

Heck, my parents had no problems lending me their 1 year old RWD MB E320 CDI with a top speed limited at 155 MPH and 0-60 rating of 6.8 seconds at the age of 18 (mind you, only 184,000 cars are faster OR have more HP over here!). Never pulled of any stunts with that car either, always drove responsibly with it. Still, not the kind of car you would let your 18 year old drive around with, it has every potential to be a recipe of disaster.

Now I’m 25 and driving an M235i (only 33,000 cars are faster OR have more HP!). Still not being an irresponsible road toddler. I’ve made it a sport to drive like a complete grandma in Eco PRO driving to work, doing 8.7l/100km or 27 mpg on a 13.5 mile trip, while people are hating me for driving slowly in a 6-cyilinder turbo when they're behind me in their 0.8l 2 cylinder turbo lol :P

Again, not everyone is irresponsible at the ages 18 to 26 (I believe that’s the age a brain is fully developed, generally).

Don’t get me wrong, there are plenty of idiots out there, being all cool in their cardboard tuned 92’ Honda CRX with noisy quad exhausts and zero wheel traction, but it’s definitely not everyone.

And, of course, you are correct as well! In any population, there is variance, both for the ability/willingness to learn, as well as in neurological development. Sounds like you have been ahead of the curve!

[wjjkoevoets]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

And, of course, you are correct as well! In any population, there is variance, both for the ability/willingness to learn, as well as in neurological development. Sounds like you have been ahead of the curve!

Thanks. I didn't mean to brag. I'd like to think that my parents are responsible for raising me this way. They've been very laissez-faire in their way of dealing with things, but strongly emphasized responsibility and consequences of one's actions. I learned to appreciate everything that I have in life and understand that I've been very lucky. It always felt morally incorrect to throw it all away for something stupid like excessive speeding in a car or some stuff. Sorry if I'm getting a bit incoherent here, it's really late and English isn't exactly my native language.

[BEM-S4]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

And, of course, you are correct as well! In any population, there is variance, both for the ability/willingness to learn, as well as in neurological development. Sounds like you have been ahead of the curve!

Absolutely agree. I think we're all talking your "average" kid that age. Just a matter of time behind the wheel more than anything - more is better until you hit grandpa style can't drive for shit anymore.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by wjjkoevoets

Sorry if I'm getting a bit incoherent here, it's really late and English isn't exactly my native language.

You must be kidding! Your writing skills exceed the majority of the native English-speaking population! Congratulations to you and thank your teachers!

[EEBreh]

I purchased my first car when I was 16 and it was a 1989 Porsche 944 S2. I spent a majority of my time working on it and doing Autocrosses / Drivers ed events. I finally picked up an M235 for a second car and I am currently 23. I see a majority of idiotic posts on the F22 Facebook group and the BMW 135 335 535 facebook groups with people who talk about street racing or highway pulls. Simply idiotic. Age certainly does not dictate in every case if a person is mature or not. That news article is sad and I am sorry for the families involved.

[BEM-S4]

Originally Posted by EEBreh

I purchased my first car when I was 16 and it was a 1989 Porsche 944 S2. I spent a majority of my time working on it and doing Autocrosses / Drivers ed events. I finally picked up an M235 for a second car and I am currently 23. I see a majority of idiotic posts on the F22 Facebook group and the BMW 135 335 535 facebook groups with people who talk about street racing or highway pulls. Simply idiotic. Age certainly does not dictate in every case if a person is mature or not. That news article is sad and I am sorry for the families involved.

There was a thread where some guy took an iPhone photo of his speedo when he was doing 140 on the NJ turnpike. Got flames. Stupidity is exclusive to the young. Track days exist for a reason!

[isthar]

"My wife and I live in the neighborhood. We went to the scene when we saw, from the other side of River Road, the enormous number of emergency vehicles and amount of activity. We spoke with a witness, perhaps the only one to the collision. (She was behind the family's car, also planning to turn left into Pyle Road.) It is not clear that a traffic light would have prevented this tragedy. Traffic was light when this occurred. The BMW (which was the only car moving west at the time, according to the witness) had the right of way (going straight); the left-turning car had to yield. The witness said the family's car waited, then went into the intersection and appeared to hesitate. Then it appeared that the BMW appeared to speed up and to the witness, a collision appeared inevitable. Had the family's car simply waited for the BMW to pass and clear the intersection, this terrible tragedy would have been avoided. Still, other factors support installing traffic signals at this intersection."

Thing with any discussion on "but speeding caused it" is that.. well... doing 26mph in 25mph zone is speeding... and it is not possible to find any valid number of cars ever not speeding (on any 'highway' type road). Obviously the bmw was speeding. I sadly believe the fault was the family driver (should have given right of way). the bmw driver clearly does have some record, and very VERY likely was driving at a high rate of speed (but frankly I would not be surprised his speed was not actually reckless per-se).

I focus more on ... wow, death in a 2016 chevy volt? oopsies (and this isn't a full on 65mph highway collision either...).

[overcoil]

You think the BMW sped up to get by the Volt so the Volt could complete its turn....

[BEM-S4]

Originally Posted by ScottSinger

You think the BMW sped up to get by the Volt so the Volt could complete its turn....

Not saying that this was the case here, but especially with a quick car it's sometimes best to get out of a hairy spot as quickly as possible. Slowing down or stopping isn't the right thing to do 100% of the time. Remember once coming out of the Lincoln Tunnel I was in the back seat of my mother's Volvo race wagon, dad was behind the wheel and we avoided a 4 car pile up because he saw it coming and got us the hell out of there. Of course at the time I thought it was insanely awesome, being 8 years old.

[MASHCT]

Originally Posted by xantdieselx

As someone mentioned the article stated the other driver turned left and was hit. The would give the M235i right of way regardless of speed unless there was a control present.

It's tragic the people lost their lives but I don't see how the driver's age plays anywhere in this scenario. The 2 series is a very safe vehicle and I'm sure played a part in the drivers survival.

While I certainly respect others' opinions, but right of way "regardless of speed"? Umm.. no. If the other driver was speeding, he is at fault, period - albeit perhaps not 100%.

A local television reports that the driver of the other car has prior violations including:

- Pleaded guilty to negligent driving in 2013
- speeding
- unsafe lane changing
- driving on the wrong side of the road
- spinning tires

You don't kill 3 people, and critically injure another passenger going 45 miles an hour. And as you will see in the video clip - the Chevy Volt was pushed WAY off the road and smashed all to hell.

Speculation at this point, but if I was to place my bet... speeding played a part, big time.

http://wjla.com/news/local/three-kil...sh-in-maryland

[mankid247]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

And, it's predictable and explainable. For all sorts of reasons, justifiable or otherwise, we allow people below 25 with inherently not-yet-developed brains to drive cars. The periodic sad outcomes will always be with us.

http://nautil.us/issue/15/turbulence...frontal-cortex

I Disagree, I believe it's less about the age and more about the driver. I just turned 21 today and have had my M235i going on two years this month. In high school I drove a combination of a 2009 x5 4.8, a 2010 range rover super charged or on some occasions my dad's 2009 M5. Did I enjoy having the ability to go faster and have some spirited times? Yes, however I never went to far. I also got my pilots license at 16 and to this day have had one accident in a car on the ground that involved me being the third car in a chain of traffic rear ends. still no accidents air or ground in a plane. It's more about how responsible you are with power and less about the persons age.

[aerostar]

Originally Posted by MASH65

While I certainly respect others' opinions, but right of way "regardless of speed"? Umm.. no. If the other driver was speeding, he is at fault, period - albeit perhaps not 100%.

A local television reports that the driver of the other car has prior violations including:

- Pleaded guilty to negligent driving in 2013
- speeding
- unsafe lane changing
- driving on the wrong side of the road
- spinning tires

You don't kill 3 people, and critically injure another passenger going 45 miles an hour. And as you will see in the video clip - the Chevy Volt was pushed WAY off the road and smashed all to hell.

Speculation at this point, but if I was to place my bet... speeding played a part, big time.

http://wjla.com/news/local/three-kil...sh-in-maryland

If you t-bone a Chevy Volt that's not moving at 45 miles an hour, you would be surprised what 3,500 lbs of metal will do at that speed.

I'd say that second crash is about 50mph. I'd say you can definitely throw a chevy volt down an embankment with our car. And also, you should keep in mind that t-boning a car is the absolute worst place for a car to be hit. There is not nearly enough crumple zone there to absorb the impact on the t-boned car. All the energy that doesn't get absorbed by the metal gets dispersed through the rest of the car, including the occupants.

[BEM-S4]

Originally Posted by mankid247

I Disagree, I believe it's less about the age and more about the driver. I just turned 21 today and have had my M235i going on two years this month. In high school I drove a combination of a 2009 x5 4.8, a 2010 range rover super charged or on some occasions my dad's 2009 M5. Did I enjoy having the ability to go faster and have some spirited times? Yes, however I never went to far. I also got my pilots license at 16 and to this day have had one accident in a car on the ground that involved me being the third car in a chain of traffic rear ends. still no accidents air or ground in a plane. It's more about how responsible you are with power and less about the persons age.

First off, you are far from your typical 21 year old driver. Second, I think we are using age as a proxy for wheel time. How many hours did you have to log to get your pilot's license? My GF got her drivers license when she was in her 30s because she lived in the city her whole life. She was a HORRBILE driver because she had no experience even though she was much older than this driver. Think all we are trying to say, aside from the typical kids do stupid shit argument, is that someone who is 30 typically has more time behind the wheel than someone who is 20, so more experience to draw upon when making driving decision.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by BEM-S4

First off, you are far from your typical 21 year old driver. Second, I think we are using age as a proxy for wheel time. How many hours did you have to log to get your pilot's license? My GF got her drivers license when she was in her 30s because she lived in the city her whole life. She was a HORRBILE driver because she had no experience even though she was much older than this driver. Think all we are trying to say, aside from the typical kids do stupid shit argument, is that someone who is 30 typically has more time behind the wheel than someone who is 20, so more experience to draw upon when making driving decision.

Your points about experience are certainly valid, but it's also about neurology. Although every population has variation, someone 21 inherently does not yet have the full potential his/her brain will have at 25 or 30 for risk assessment, judgement, and decision-making. Some start ahead of others, and our young poster may be at the head of his age class, combined with teaching and experience, to make him among the most responsible young users. And, there is no doubt that there are plenty of older folks whose behavior would make us wonder whether their brains ever matured! However, huge sample data over many years, from a variety of sources, shows that, for the overall population, youth increases risk of bad outcomes.

[BEM-S4]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

Your points about experience are certainly valid, but it's also about neurology. Although every population has variation, someone 21 inherently does not yet have the full potential his/her brain will have at 25 or 30 for risk assessment, judgement, and decision-making. Some start ahead of others, and our young poster may be at the head of his age class, combined with teaching and experience, to make him among the most responsible young users. And, there is no doubt that there are plenty of older folks whose behavior would make us wonder whether their brains ever matured! However, huge sample data over many years, from a variety of sources, shows that, for the overall population, youth increases risk of bad outcomes.

Absolutely agree with you, didn't mean to make it sound like I was debating neurological development. There are a number of factors at play here, neurology, experience, etc. Hell Lewis Hamilton told the head of his current F1 team that he would race for him one day after winning a cart championship, I believe he was like 5 years old at the time! So Lewis Hamilton at 5 is probably better than most normal people at 35. You can always find outliers in any statistical study. Think we're just coming back to the points you outlined, time behind the wheel, and aside from driving experience just life experience in general all comes into play. Just the other day my buddy got on my case about not pulling into traffic, said my car was more than fast enough to make it. Right, like waiting another 30 seconds until things looked better to me was going to make any difference in the grand scheme of my universe. I am sure Giselle was pissed off at Tom Brady and waiting at my local bar just hoping I would come in and buy her a cocktail and she left 30 seconds before I got there.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by BEM-S4

Absolutely agree with you, didn't mean to make it sound like I was debating neurological development. There are a number of factors at play here, neurology, experience, etc. Hell Lewis Hamilton told the head of his current F1 team that he would race for him one day after winning a cart championship, I believe he was like 5 years old at the time! So Lewis Hamilton at 5 is probably better than most normal people at 35. You can always find outliers in any statistical study. Think we're just coming back to the points you outlined, time behind the wheel, and aside from driving experience just life experience in general all comes into play. Just the other day my buddy got on my case about not pulling into traffic, said my car was more than fast enough to make it. Right, like waiting another 30 seconds until things looked better to me was going to make any difference in the grand scheme of my universe. I am sure Giselle was pissed off at Tom Brady and waiting at my local bar just hoping I would come in and buy her a cocktail and she left 30 seconds before I got there.

So, I take it, you're not the guy in your avatar photo?

[BEM-S4]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

So, I take it, you're not the guy in your avatar photo?

POOOOOWWWWWEEEEERRRRRR!

It's all about knowing when to pull the trigger, and more importantly when to keep your weapon in its holster!

For the young guys out there reading this particular thread, the same thing goes for women! The fast ones can hurt you just like a car! At least there in most cases there a shot of Penicillin will do the trick.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

I'm curious as to the speed of the M235. But barring any really excessive speed, it seems like the M235 had the right of way (going straight).

Originally Posted by midlifecrisis

Sounds like the other car turned into his path. This might not be his fault, although the article mentions that drivers frequently speed down the hill toward the intersection.

Of course it's his fault, serious negligence of life doing 115mph down a public road but don't take my word for it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local...mepage%2Fstory

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by Robert

Of course it's his fault, serious negligence of life doing 115mph down a public road but don't take my word for it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local...mepage%2Fstory

Of course you are correct. 115mph is gross negligence per se and the proximate cause of the crash. But for the speed, which no other driver would be bound to anticipate, the crash would have most likely be avoided.