[BMWKLR]

Originally Posted by PhoenixWolf

Hahaha

I remember my friend in a honda crx would kill the air before downshifting to get more power,lol. Memories...

[///M-pressed]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

Agreed - the con list isn't objective at all.

The 235 could be modified to the moon and back and I would still take the M2 over it - why? Well because it has been developed into a complete package by M engineers. Thousands of hours of tweaking and testing and driving - in different conditions and climates. You think K&N and BMS and whoever else you slap on the 235 has done .00001% of the planning and testing that the engineers @ M have done? You think Terry is flying to the Ring or to the Sahara desert or to the frozen tundra of Norway and testing his JB4 on the M2 there?

Of course not. The M cars always start from a better place and I would take one bone stock over a super modified 235 any day of the week, and twice on Sunday.

Those who don't think there's going to be a big difference are either:

A.) delusional and trying to justify 235 purchase, or;
B.) haven't driven an M car extensively, especially the F8X vehicles.

The differences will be very apparent.

Very well said! I don't get this M car v non-car argument. You can argue the 'but I can mod the non-M car to make it better' but ultimately one has been developed as an M-car and the other hasn't. Doesn't get anymore clearer than that does it?

I get what you are saying about tuning companies and R&D, but I think there are some out there that are a little better than others who do conduct testing to ensure longevity and reliability.

[PrematureApex]

And yet, what do people do to their M cars when they want to, say, improve their on-track performance?

Oh, that's right...

They rip off all of the hard work the suspension engineers put in, and replace it with aftermarket struts/shocks/springs/swaybars/bushings/etc.

Don't over-hype the OE engineering aspect. BMW engineers have to sell you a car that's going to both perform well, ride well, and meet price targets.

There are compromises everywhere. Compromises that the aftermarket doesn't have to make.

If you're less concerned about cost, for example, you could toss your relatively cheap OE suspension in the garbage and slap on a set of Ohlins that "M" engineers only wish they had the budget for. Heck, even an OTS Bilstein monotube, or a Koni yellow, is a better built, longer lasting strut/shock than what comes from the factory.

It's ridiculous to claim that BMW's stock hardware is superior for everyone, for all uses.

Ridiculous thing to say, and normally said by people who have no idea what they're talking about, nor actually spend much time exploring their car's potential.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by Attuale

I get what you are saying about tuning companies and R&D, but I think there are some out there that are a little better than others who do conduct testing to ensure longevity and reliability.

Of course. there are many reputable aftermarket companies out there that put out good products - can't argue with that at all.

It's just that the culmination of all those different aftermarket parts would never be better than that which the ///M division came up with on its own - just from the standpoint of a cohesive product, in which all the connecting pieces within work well together, and as a whole.

[PrematureApex]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

It's just that the culmination of all those different aftermarket parts would never be better than that which the ///M division came up with on its own - just from the standpoint of a cohesive product, in which all the connecting pieces within work well together, and as a whole.

Again, that's a silly, silly statement.

"Better" at what? To repeat, M Division has to make all kinds of compromises, both in dynamic aspects (ride comfort, "safe" handling) as well as cost.

If your M2 is a track car, you can be sure that the culmination of the right aftermarket parts can be "better" than the factory components (many of which are actually fairly low quality compared to what you can find in the aftermarket).

Let's just take an example, naturally, this car is going to have a fair bit of understeer dialed into it to keep the lawyers happy. Correcting that via small suspension changes in the aftermarket can't result in a car that is "better" than stock? More understeer somehow makes a car more of a "cohesive product"? What?

Replacing fairly poor factory shocks with upgraded aftermarket units can't possible make the car better?

What?

Just stop with the "you can't improve over M divisions engineers" already. It's a tired, old, silly argument. Everyone has different priorities, budgets, etc. One size does not fit all.

The very fact that the car was built to a price target ABSOLUTELY means that there can easily be room for improvement if you're not bound by those same fiscal limitations.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by PrematureApex

Again, that's a silly, silly statement.

"Better" at what? To repeat, M Division has to make all kinds of compromises, both in dynamic aspects (ride comfort, "safe" handling) as well as cost.

If your M2 is a track car, you can be sure that the culmination of the right aftermarket parts can be "better" than the factory components (many of which are actually fairly low quality compared to what you can find in the aftermarket).

Let's just take an example, naturally, this car is going to have a fair bit of understeer dialed into it to keep the lawyers happy. Correcting that via small suspension changes in the aftermarket can't result in a car that is "better" than stock? More understeer somehow makes a car more of a "cohesive product"? What?

Replacing fairly poor factory shocks with upgraded aftermarket units can't possible make the car better?

What?

Just stop with the "you can't improve over M divisions engineers" already. It's a tired, old, silly argument. Everyone has different priorities, budgets, etc. One size does not fit all.

The very fact that the car was built to a price target ABSOLUTELY means that there can easily be room for improvement if you're not bound by those same fiscal limitations.

Did you read my original post? I said it was a better point from which to start from (the M car vs. the modified one AND that I would rather have the bone stock M car). Again because the overall, cohesive product has been developed with a lot of moving pieces in mind. Not just upping the boost. Or increasing airflow. Or having a less restrictive exhaust. Etc, etc...

Can it be improved? Of course it can. Would you rather improve an M car or a 235? That was the question I was responding to...

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by PrematureApex

M Division [...] factory components (many of which are actually fairly low quality compared to what you can find in the aftermarket) [...] fairly poor factory shocks

[Spook410]

While I don't have an opinion for or knowledge of suspension components, I was a systems engineer for many years. When building a system you specify the pieces that meet thought out requirements, you put them together and verify they work. Then, and this is a critical step, you test and tune the whole system to ensure that the requirements you started are met. I do not doubt that there are better parts available than what is being provided on the M2. What I do doubt is that if you share the vision of an M2: a daily driver that can be tracked, you will not easily do better than what BMW has provided.

As for building a dedicated track car, what does history say? Folks used to buy E36 M3's for this purpose. Don't know about later models.

[PrematureApex]

Originally Posted by Artemis

What's the popcorn for? Do you know who makes the stock shocks for most BMWs?

You think the stock Boge/Sachs/etc. twin tube shocks that come with these cars stock are anything special, at all? They're bleh in the grand scheme of things. Hence, the common-knowledge that OE struts/shocks are good for MAYBE 40 or 50k miles. They don't hold a candle to something like an aftermarket Koni yellow or a basic Bilstein inverted monotube. Let alone something more high end. But there's a reason for that. COST. Are they bad compared to other OE offerings? Of course not. But that doesn't make them nice either.

The very same companies that make the struts/shocks for BMW also make the aftermarket offerings, most of which are above the OE replacements in their own product lines for god sakes.

You're right, all of those people putting Konis, Ohlins, or Bilsteins on their M cars would be better served spending $400 a corner on a run of the mill "BMW" branded Sachs twin tube.

Again, and not trying to be mean, people that post stuff like this have no clue what the heck they're talking about.

Again, "BMW knows best" doesn't apply when they have to hit a cost number.

If BMW could afford to sell their cars with even a basic inverted monotube, or adjustable Konis/Ohlins stock they sure as shit would. They're limited by cost. They have to pick and chose where to put the money in their budget.

Which is why it's absurd to think these cars get the best of everything.

[OG///M]

Originally Posted by PrematureApex

What's the popcorn for? Do you know who makes the stock shocks for most BMWs?

You think the stock Boge/Sachs/etc. twin tube shocks that come with these cars stock are anything special, at all? They're bleh in the grand scheme of things. Hence, the common-knowledge that OE struts/shocks are good for MAYBE 40 or 50k miles. They don't hold a candle to something like an aftermarket Koni yellow or a basic Bilstein inverted monotube. Let alone something more high end. But there's a reason for that. COST. Are they bad compared to other OE offerings? Of course not. But that doesn't make them nice either.

The very same companies that make the struts/shocks for BMW also make the aftermarket offerings, most of which are above the OE replacements in their own product lines for god sakes.

You're right, all of those people putting Konis, Ohlins, or Bilsteins on their M cars would be better served spending $400 a corner on a run of the mill "BMW" branded Sachs twin tube.

Again, and not trying to be mean, people that post stuff like this have no clue what the heck they're talking about.

Again, "BMW knows best" doesn't apply when they have to hit a cost number.

If BMW could afford to sell their cars with even a basic inverted monotube, or adjustable Konis/Ohlins stock they sure as shit would. They're limited by cost. They have to pick and chose where to put the money in their budget.

Which is why it's absurd to think these cars get the best of everything.

I have a feeling you're missing the point here.
Since we are talking about shocks, I think we all agree there are aftermarket parts that's better than OE parts.

but what is better? the aftermarket shock design alone by it self is no doubt "better",
but as with all aftermarket parts, they're designed to fit many applications.
All everyone is saying is that OE parts were tested and refined as a whole M2 package and that can be an advantage when you're not just thinking about lap times.

Yes the you can find individual parts that are far superior to OE parts.
But adding all these parts together, will the car as a whole perform or feel how you want it? depends.

[PackPride85]

Originally Posted by Francis///M

I have a feeling you're missing the point here.
Since we are talking about shocks, I think we all agree there are aftermarket parts that's better than OE parts.

but what is better? the aftermarket shock design alone by it self is no doubt "better",
but as with all aftermarket parts, they're designed to fit many applications.
All everyone is saying is that OE parts were tested and refined as a whole M2 package and that can be an advantage when you're not just thinking about lap times.

Yes the you can find individual parts that are far superior to OE parts.
But adding all these parts together, will the car as a whole perform or feel how you want it? depends.

^What he said.

OEM parts might be cheap in quality so they can be mass produced easier, but the dampening rate of a stock M2 shock was developed using THOUSANDS of hours of track testing. No aftermarket company has the resources to spend that much time perfectly matching a shock to spring rates.

Yes, the quality of the KONI will probably exceed the OEM but you'll never get that exact dampening rate match with the springs that the OEM had. That doesn't necessarily mean its "worse" just not he intended design from the M engineers. If you want to dial in a crap ton of oversteer then by all means go for it, but you'd be fooling yourself to say it makes the car "better" in general just because YOU like it that way.

[chris719]

Just out of curiosity, are M shocks / struts always twin-tube? Have they ever had Bilstein OEM a gas monotube?

Also, to go along with the above. You won't be getting the subframe and other chassis reinforcements or changes BMW has made on the M2 if you start from a 235. You'll also need to figure out a way to fit wider wheels and tires that don't fit properly on a 235. Good luck doing all that for less than the delta in price between the two.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by PrematureApex

What's the popcorn for?

It seems that we're talking at different frequencies.

The message that others and myself are trying to get across is the fact that BMW M offers an integrated package with quality parts that are fit for purpose. All super-duper top-notch parts ? Not necessary. Compliance with other parts & fitness for purpose are key + rules and regs need to be observed to keep the car street legal + safety margins for longevity reasons.

That brings us to the question what that 'purpose' may be. You cannot dispute that the purpose of an M2 unmistakably also includes the likelihood of quite some M2 buyers regularly driving it on urban roads featuring potholes and road bumps + boring queuing in tailbacks. Not just squeezing every oomph out of it during a couple of spirited track sessions from time to time.

[MR.]

Originally Posted by Artemis

It seems that we're talking at different frequencies.

The message that others and myself are trying to get across is the fact that BMW M offers an integrated package with quality parts that are fit for purpose. All super-duper top-notch parts ? Not necessary. Compliance with other parts & fitness for purpose are key + rules and regs need to be observed to keep the car street legal + safety margins for longevity reasons.

That brings us to the question what that 'purpose' may be. You cannot dispute that the purpose of an M2 unmistakably also includes the likelihood of quite some M2 buyers regularly driving it on urban roads featuring potholes and road bumps + boring queuing in tailbacks. Not just squeezing every oomph out of it during a couple of spirited track sessions from time to time.

AMEN!

[Nahlem]

For me the choice is rather simple in a question like this if i were a buyer or speculating to buy an 1M for example and i went to a BMW dealership! There were 2 identical 1Ms next to each other one had 30 000 kms on it, The other one had 10 000 kms on it but the first one was stock and wasn't mixed with in any other way. I think i would lean towards the stock one rather then the modified one mostly because its hell of a risk modifying a car even if you know what you are doing its always gonna be "What if" if its stock then i know no one has mixed or changed anything its the same it was the day it left the factory and no one has touched anything in regards to modifying that is.

I like modifying my car but if i were buying one i would want it to be stock and not modified even if the parts were from great companies out there. If i were to buy a modified car. Then i would want all documentation that it was done by professionals and it gave me a long warranty that if something brakes due to their products they will repair the damage that it causes to the car and the parts that have broken down will be replaced for free. But even then its to late cause your cars resale value will have dropped a lot.

So i guess its choice of the mind and what keeps you calm when driving it. Do you feel just as safe driving a car that is modified. Or safer when driving a stock car from factory that has 100 upon 100 hours of testing done to it to be the best that i can be with all parts working together.

There is a lot of companies that manufactures great quality products for cars. That are better then OEM parts but have they been tested to that extent with that specific car you are mounting the part on ? Will it void the warranty will the company cover and damage caused by installing their part if it fails some point later?

Thats always on my mind if i am going to install after market parts on my car even if they are better then OEM ones.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Agreed.

The M2 is a harmoniously integrated package, with many parts revised/replaced. That's why it's not pigeon-holed as a 'variant', but as a 'stand-alone version' of the 2-Series. Alike the M3, M4, M5 and M6 are stand-alone versions of the 3, 4, 5 and 6-Series.

It's different - it's another league for much more than merely marketing reasons. More 'reworked' than 'add-on jobs'. Think of so-called 12" maxi versions of pop records in the 80s: you had so-called 'extended versions', but you also had 'remixes' (rework, requiring more input). The M2 is a kind of remix/re-edit/mash-up of an M235i with M3/M4 elements, as well as new elements plus a pinch of 1M inspiration, into some new harmoniously integrated total package.

If the BMW M Department signs off one of their creations as ///M car, then it's an ///M. Period. And all that jazz whether it's a "proper M car" or not: in all fairness, name me one M car not worth the M badge.

Of course, this has to be distinguished from the discussion whether it's a right or questionable choice of the BMW M Department to also develop an M version of some BMW cars (think X5 and X6 - remember Chris Harris at the end of his 2011 review of the 1M: "An absolutely cracking car [1M]. I almost, almost, forgive BMW for the X6M. Not quite".

What about upgrading a car via aftermarket tuners ? The latter don't have access to the dedicated know how, resources, means, time and R&D data that the ///M department and its suppliers spent on the M2 (including test results from track tests, climate behavior road tests, wind tunnels, of the M2 and other ///M cars). Aftermarket tuners are left to their own devices: they got to find it out themselves and (reverse) engineer parts or tunes based on their own know how and experience. Installing some parts may void the BMW warranty for obvious reasons, more particularly if tinkering with the fine-tuned package pushed the envelope beyond safety margin limits, etc.

It's true that also M Performance Parts are add-on jobs. However, we may reasonably assume that the developers had at least (the possibility to) access to all relevant R&D data and observed preserving the harmony of the integrated package. OEM parts won't void the BMW warranty and equally avoid or limit the risks of trouble during future car inspections.

If the financial delta M240i - M2 is one of the major reasons for some for opting for the M240i in the end: think again. The M2 is the most affordable, compact ///M car on sale. I'm pretty convinced that loss of resale value in cash will be more limited for the M2 than for the M240i or bigger ///M cars.

Furthermore, with the M240i the mod bug may make you dig a little deeper into your wallet in order to upgrade it furthermore. And you may tell yourself many times whilst behind the wheel of the M240i that it's (f)actually 'as good as', 'virtually' or 'quasi' an M2, you know deep down in your petrol head heart that it ain't. And if you don't, at least the potential buyer (including the dealership, if you'd consider a trade-in on resale day) will remind you to it.

Hence, if you're really considering either an M240i or an M2, take my advice: get the M2 (if available + available for MRSP or less) and never look back. And if you do: check your bank account and your face in the mirror on resale day.

Nice post.

Just saw the 135 to 1M conversion of 1LittleMonster...15k of mods in his case.

[mephiska]

Originally Posted by chaudhrysn

I drive an F30 335i, and absolutely would have loved for there to be less sound deadening as I can barely hear the exhaust even with a meisterschaft exhaust. If I ever get a chance to drive this car, I'm sure I would love it!

Coming from an STI that had little in the way of sound deadening I can tell you this is not a good thing for a daily driver. Yes you'll hear more exhaust noise, but also a LOT more road/tire noise, and it gets on your nerves after a while. Track or weekend car, sure, but commuting 20+ miles every day? No thanks.

[Seagull]

Originally Posted by mephiska

Coming from an STI that had little in the way of sound deadening I can tell you this is not a good thing for a daily driver. Yes you'll hear more exhaust noise, but also a LOT more road/tire noise, and it gets on your nerves after a while. Track or weekend car, sure, but commuting 20+ miles every day? No thanks.

That may be true, but I find that my F30 has way too much sound deadening. I can't hear the engine much at all. I was fine with the sounds in my e46 and e90's before, but the F30 is just too isolated for me. I hope the m2 will have the "right amount" of cabin noise at appropriate rpms.