[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by Levi

M2 + I6 = FAIL
M2 + I4 = WIN

You think BMW is going to give the M2 the engine from the M4? Or you think an OEM tuned N55/N56 is worth an M badge? The N55 is almost as heavy as S65.

If you want I6 just get an M4, if you can't afford M4, but want I6, just get M235i. Let the purists get I4.

If it was only about I6 smoothness, why did BMW give the E9XM a V8? Why did M3 E30 have I4 whereas 325i E30 had I6?

The M2 is about handling, and 328i F30 handles better than 335i F30. If the next M2 gets an I6, it will be the same car as the current/previous E82M: good car but wrong powertrain.

A heavy I6 is inacceptable in a lightweight M2.

i don't know about " unacceptable" .. but i agree... the M2 can be closer to the actual true spiritual successor to the E30 M3 by putting in a 4 cyl motor. And i agree.. a hotted up 4 cylinder would make it weigh even less.

Originally Posted by ozinaldo

Nice logic there, maybe it's a bit of a wishful thinking but I would love to see that more than another inline six; not because I don't love the sixes but because it is time to invest more on lightness and smaller displacement for M.

I personally hope it comes with a 4 cyl motor as well. better economy and probably darn near similar power along with a ton of torque.

Originally Posted by formula M

All of this is great news...

But do understand, the M2 will be lighter than the 1M coupe & much more refined and focused. It will def have a 4-cyl w/ secret M-sauce..

I would expect nearly 200lbs lighter and slightly higher revs, with matching tq figures as the 1M coupe. Win/win

that's what I'm talking about... Secret M sauce eh?

[bimmerjph]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

It is interesting because as far as I know preliminary testing is underway that means they have not made any overall decision to what is suggested in the article. It is true they have done work on the N20 and thinking logically it is the preferred choice.

I am hoping for an N20. As big of a fan that I am of the BMW i6, I want the i4 for the sake of lightness. Actually I really don't are what engine it has long as it has actual steering feel. Not just steering weight. Scott is the M2 going to be a short production run like the 1M, or is it going to be produced like the M3 and M5 are (pretty much throughout the life of the platform)?

[Mark's M]

Current M135i (and M235i for N/A): 320 hp I-6

M2: 340-360 hp I-6

M4: 450ish hp I-6

The N20 will be reserved for lesser 2er's once they arrive in 2014. My humble predictions.

[StealYourFace]

I want a 1m so bad, I wish that the US got more than >1000. The prices for used ones are crazy. That and the lack of decent colors, sorry but that orange isn't great and I would bet money it won't age well, unlike imola, esoril, ib ect.

Has anyone done an IB wrap or repaint on a 1m?

As for as the M2 goes, if it winds up being an N20 and maybe weighs 150lb less than the 1m, that would be pretyty cool.

I am sure we will hear test car vids soo, which will give it away.

[gds52]

1,2,3,4,5,6,7.....BMW shd revive 8 series as well, then 9 and 10.
BMW M10....with W12 engine.

[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by gds52

1,2,3,4,5,6,7.....BMW shd revive 8 series as well, then 9 and 10.
BMW M10....with W12 engine.

Yeah man

[BMW269]

As many say, I too like I6 engines, but the I6 engine is a good engine only in specific uses. It is not bad in the M135i, but alot of the power is not really necessary. On track the FWD Renault Mégane RS does very well with "only" 265 PS. I am quite sure the new Audi S3 with 300 PS, will be as fast, and probably even faster than the M135i. Is the M2 going after laptime and sprint time records? Maybe, but that will be disappointing for me. Look at the BRZ/GT86, a wonderful car, which with the right tires only, gets instanly much faster on track and in acceleration, with only 200 PS and NA 205 Nm.

One thing most of you forget is that turbocharging is no magic. Turbocharging is "cheap" power, but may cost even more if the get it right.
I like the idea of a smaller displacement I6 (BMW 320i and Lexus IS200 with 2.0l I6) but I don't see BMW doing that. N55 is the same engine as N20 but with two cylinders more. BMW has the N16, if like for the N20, we could then get a 2.4l I6, but I doubt BMW would do that for the M2 only, for cost reasons, just as they didn't give the 3.3l V6 for the M3, again for cost reasons only.

Do not forget to take into consideration the weight that turbocharging adds.

N20: 146 kg (TC 2.0l I4)
N52: 161 kg (NA 3.0l I6)
N54: 195 kg (TC 3.0l I6)
S54: 217 kg (NA 3.2l I6)
S65: 202 kg (NA 4.0l V8)
S85: 240 kg (NA 5.0l V10)

The more torque of an I6 is not worth the added weight over an I4. Another question would be wether the added torque got by a turbocharged engine is worth the added weight. For performance yes, handling, I'm not sure.

By the way, does anybody know the weight of the N63 and S63? Well, BMW did not release the numbers, the added weight compared to the S85 is shocking. It would not be easy to justify turbocharging.

Originally Posted by gds52

1,2,3,4,5,6,7.....BMW shd revive 8 series as well, then 9 and 10.
BMW M10....with W12 engine.

[barische]

Originally Posted by Mark's M

As pointed out a couple of posts above, most of the renders are awful. This one isn't. If the M2, as Scott26 aludes, is close to this....it's going to be a long, long wait!!

Now that looks amazing... Here, take my money

[barische]

Originally Posted by ozinaldo

Everything you say here is possible and loveable too. The only exception is the tq figure, you are not going to have a matching tq to a 1M from a 4 cylinder turbo. The avarage dyno puts stock 1Ms 550-560 nm range, way above advertised 450+50 nm figure. For the moment the highest tq from a 2 liter 4 cylinder in a mass production car is (correct me if I am wrong) the Astra OPC which makes 400 nm (equal of a regular N54 or N55, but just on paper, all N54s and N55s make more) and in the near future we will see the production car record very probably broken by the Mercedes A45 AMG with 450 nm from their new 2 liter. So, none of them in reality matches, even gets close to the N54 version in the 1M.

For people who likes to put it in perspective the 1M makes around 360 hp and the full bolt on cars with a tune (but keeping the stock turbos) easily passes 450 hp, with most aggressive tunes going low 500s. Those cars are able to hit 700 nm or more tq, which is higher than a Aventador's V12 and in the same level with a stock F10 M5.

In short, you are not going to have much more than that really in any small M car in the foreseeable future but since making power is not at all the most significant part of an M car, I am absolutely not denying progress here. Lightness is the key. 1M was not a light car, not at all, it is a heavy car for the size but the tq makes it feel light in most circumstances which is not the same thing. That's probably only real issue with 1M imo.

This is nothing more than a little note, limited on tq figure, on your high expectations from the M2, otherwise I would love to see what you describe happens in the near future: really light, small or compact enough, powerful enough, torquey and a bold design. If these all blend together well then it will have the most important of all, a character of its own and not 1M's or new M3's. Make it BMW M and I will cry amen!

My APR tuned GTI - Turbo, intercooled puts out about 300ft/lb, 250 hp at crank. Plenty of power, no turbo lag due to small k03 turbo. Car weighs about 3100# which is pretty heavy but that thing moves.. Just to show that i4 turbo m2 can be very possible.

[kardboard]

Originally Posted by ozinaldo

Nice logic there, maybe it's a bit of a wishful thinking but I would love to see that more than another inline six; not because I don't love the sixes but because it is time to invest more on lightness and smaller displacement for M.

Agreed, an I4 is taking a step in that direction. I'm not sure about weight, but I believe the displacement to be anywhere from a 2.0L to a 2.4L I like to think the M2 will be a more thoughtout 1 series M coupe. And a lot of that effort will be spent on the motor.

I've heard people complain about the 1 series M coupe's drivetrain being a weakness, but they tend to be the ones who wuoldn't go back to MT after the DCT. I can see the DCT being offered in the M2 now that the engineers have more time for scheduling and approvals.

A carbon fiber reinforced plastic roof is also a strong possibility due to, agian, a longer development time.

Time will also tell if Carbon Ceramic brakes will be offered across the M line up.

Seeing quad pipes on a 4 cylinder car (even though an M signature design) might look rediculous from under the car, but we have seen this before on cars such as the subaru sti.

Just some thoughts....

[M3 Adjuster]

320 hp N20 twin turbo 4cylinder
335-345 ft lb torque
7500 rpm
3100 lbs
$46,000

BMW already eschewed the Single Turbo n55 for the N54T in the 1M, and giving a 4 cyl the secret M sauce treatment would make the car a hoot.


The lighter N20 motor is a massive step in reducing weight. the 4 cyl motor will be powerful, torquey, and also more fuel efficient. hopefully it's also inexpensive to make since its already in cars like the f30.

If they can put a six in then that would be awesome as well, but
most importantly. HOLD THE LINE ON PRICE. I would love to see the 2M come out at the exact same price as the 1M like BMW did with the original e30m3 and e36m3 at $34,995.

There is no reason the 2m should run more than 1M and should be under 50K price point as much as possible as a reasonably affordable M car in comparison to the STI/EVO/A5/R32.

[ozinaldo]

Originally Posted by barische

My APR tuned GTI - Turbo, intercooled puts out about 300ft/lb, 250 hp at crank. Plenty of power, no turbo lag due to small k03 turbo. Car weighs about 3100# which is pretty heavy but that thing moves.. Just to show that i4 turbo m2 can be very possible.

So your GTI has a 2.0 liter turbo with a tune and makes 406.7 nm (300 lb.ft) tq crank. This is near to 400 nm and 280 ps of the Astra OPC from factory as I stated in my quoted post which is a production car record as of now. And it is not really near to the hp and especially tq level that N54 provides in 1M, even before any tune. My car (when completely stock) dynoed 342.9 lb.ft at the wheel (and 294.2 whp) and on a very low reading Mustang dyno and this is in full conformity with other stock 1Ms, nothing abnormal. My above post was just trying to point out that a four cylinder turbo will not "yet" surpass a six cylinder twin turbo which has 50 % more displacement, at least not in the coming few years, later is another story of course.

However, I am also trying to express my expectation that maybe it just doesn't need to do that and try to match all that tq and even hp, if you keep the weight low enough which will have additional benefits too. I would be as happy if not happier if my car had "just" 300 hp and 400 nm instead of 360 hp and 560 nm that it has now, but only if it would weigh 1300 kg instead of 1500 kg (base 1M before options weigh 1495 kg. or 1570 kg in Euro norm with driver and gas).

[ozinaldo]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

320 hp N20 twin turbo 4cylinder
335-345 ft lb torque
7500 rpm
3100 lbs
$46,000

BMW already eschewed the Single Turbo n55 for the N54T in the 1M, and giving a 4 cyl the secret M sauce treatment would make the car a hoot.


The lighter N20 motor is a massive step in reducing weight. the 4 cyl motor will be powerful, torquey, and also more fuel efficient. hopefully it's also inexpensive to make since its already in cars like the f30.

If they can put a six in then that would be awesome as well, but
most importantly. HOLD THE LINE ON PRICE. I would love to see the 2M come out at the exact same price as the 1M like BMW did with the original e30m3 and e36m3 at $34,995.

There is no reason the 2m should run more than 1M and should be under 50K price point as much as possible as a reasonably affordable M car in comparison to the STI/EVO/A5/R32.

This I am talking about.

[kardboard]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

the 1M was a game changer... this is a continuation... DUH!

The success of the 1 series M coupe was a game changer in the sense that it showed the heads at BMW that the demand for a smaller sport (read: M car) was present. The continuation with the M2 is an extension of this and will introduce a more affordable M car to their line up, and one that fits the need for peoples demands for a small sports coupe.

In Europe they had huge success with the M135i, and I truely believe that if the E82 was not at the end of its life cycle, we would have seen the 1 series M coupe run for more than 1 year of production.

The M2 is their second chance, or as you put it a "continuation". Now BMW M has to be careful of not stepping on the toes of the M3 (where the 1M was already very close in doing so) so I believe a 4 cylinder will fit the bill perfectly.

Originally Posted by Mark's M

Current M135i (and M235i for N/A): 320 hp I-6

M2: 340-360 hp I-6

M4: 450ish hp I-6

The N20 will be reserved for lesser 2er's once they arrive in 2014. My humble predictions.

I don't see the M2 having an inline 6. Why would BMW essentially offer the same engine in the M2, M3, and M4 but detune the M2 by 100 hp?

I Agree lesser 2's such as a 228i will carry the N20, but the M2 will have a reinforced, high output N20 maybe dubbed the S20. This S20 could also very well have a larger displacement than the current N20.

Originally Posted by Levi

As many say, I too like I6 engines, but the I6 engine is a good engine only in specific uses. It is not bad in the M135i, but alot of the power is not really necessary. On track the FWD Renault Mégane RS does very well with "only" 265 PS. I am quite sure the new Audi S3 with 300 PS, will be as fast, and probably even faster than the M135i. Is the M2 going after laptime and sprint time records? Maybe, but that will be disappointing for me. Look at the BRZ/GT86, a wonderful car, which with the right tires only, gets instanly much faster on track and in acceleration, with only 200 PS and NA 205 Nm.

One thing most of you forget is that turbocharging is no magic. Turbocharging is "cheap" power, but may cost even more if the get it right.
I like the idea of a smaller displacement I6 (BMW 320i and Lexus IS200 with 2.0l I6) but I don't see BMW doing that. N55 is the same engine as N20 but with two cylinders more. BMW has the N16, if like for the N20, we could then get a 2.4l I6, but I doubt BMW would do that for the M2 only, for cost reasons, just as they didn't give the 3.3l V6 for the M3, again for cost reasons only.

I would love to see a 2.4L inline 4 for the M2. Scott has mentioned BMW becoming very modular in all their parts, including engines. Can someone think of an older engine that had this displacement?

[kardboard]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

320 hp N20 twin turbo 4cylinder
335-345 ft lb torque
7500 rpm
3100 lbs
$46,000

BMW already eschewed the Single Turbo n55 for the N54T in the 1M, and giving a 4 cyl the secret M sauce treatment would make the car a hoot.


The lighter N20 motor is a massive step in reducing weight. the 4 cyl motor will be powerful, torquey, and also more fuel efficient. hopefully it's also inexpensive to make since its already in cars like the f30....

....There is no reason the 2m should run more than 1M and should be under 50K price point as much as possible as a reasonably affordable M car in comparison to the STI/EVO/A5/R32.

I honestly believe your numbers will be close to what the M2 will have. Except for two things: 330 hp/360 ft/lb (overboost), and unfortunately the price will likely be around $55k. Again, I believe it will have it's own designation for the motor, not an N20 but S20, hopefully with more displacement. ::fingers crossed::

[Mr. ///M3 RD]

Originally Posted by Mark's M

Well Oz, you've said the magic words here 'cause I was thinking of something really crazy and spectacular when the time comes.....a group buy of sorts where BMW///M can provide some guidance, coordination assistance and possibly a touch of exclusivity (via Individual) if a die hard group of maybe 10 or so enthusiasts were in for an M2 euro delivery experience?? One big one on the same day of course. And a massive party to boot!! The ///M people can be really accommodating and BMW Welt equally so.

I think it could be done and there's a decent amount of time for planning such an international venture - if buyers were willing to wait for decent Euro driving weather of course. And if, and only if, release to the various world markets was at approximately the same time. And if....and if....and yes there are a ton of stumbling blocks but a great bunch of enthusiasts would no doubt be willing to jump through hoops to make this work. Including BMW I suspect.

I've already penciled in June/2015 for my 2 week E.D.#2. I figure the more the merrier!!! If it's too early to plan, I'll gladly regurgitate the idea next year.

Here's to hoping!!

Mark, that sounds like a hell of a good idea perhaps we find a bunch of Canadians to do this ... it be great if we can all make a super deal at Budd's they are great people to deal with. Perhaps a specific thread on this when we come closer to the time of decision

BTW ... I got my last ///M3 at Budd's

Happy 2013 to you and yours!

[Mark's M]

In these lean times (despite the fact that BMW is doing exceptionally well and bucking the trend), how much R&D, time and money will BMW and sister division ///M put into a 4 cyl motor destined to power such a niche vehicle as the M2 (and probably a 4 dr version of some sort later on)??

Kardboard argues why BMW would put essentially the same motor into the M2 and M4 (albeit detuned for the M2). To counter, the N55 appears to be BMW's bread and butter motor that powers just about everything in their lineup in some form or another - with minor adjustments to tune, etc depending on the model. In the upcoming M4, the N55 will have been developed to its zenith...and M4 buyers will be justifiably paying for the ultimate in precision and power from this highly modified engine.

To build upon the N55 in the euro M135 and bring it up to the appropriate performance expectations of consumers (everyone's talking somewhere between 340 and 360 hp for either the 4 cyl or 6 cyl) would be exceptionally cost effective and still offer a discernable distinction between the current M-Performance motor and one destined for the M2. A similar distinction (actually much greater, approx. +100 hp) will separate the M2 and the M3. So yes....similar building blocks but 3 very unique end products.

And if there are concerns that the performance levels of future M2's and M4's would be too close with the N55 as it's core motor, there'll be even greater concerns about the similarities between the M-Performance I-6 and M2 I-4 motors once the M135/M235 are global automobiles. M135/M235 owners will be in their glory and will they "step up" to a 4 cylinder motor?

Speaking of which, the N20 is similarly populating the BMW range, from the X1 through to the 5 series here in N/A. It's a great motor (I've driven it extensively in X1's and F30's) but bumping it up in power (from a reliable 240 hp/260 lbs tq) to the 350-360 range with the appropriate low-end grunt that the M-Performance I-6 provides will be a financial challenge. And "reliable" at this level means typical BMW overengineering which equates to more $$$.

As for weight....I strongly suspect that BMW ///M will compensate their use of the modified N55 with structural modifications to the 2 er platform. The exceptionally consistant rave reviews that the M-Performance M135i has garnered are the result of BMW ///M's "engineering & content medling" to the tune of only 30% or so over an AG model. A purpose-built ///M vehicle is massaged by ///M division to the tune of 80% over an AG model (as per BMW's Christof Lischka). Wow...what would the owners and drivers of the M135i do with all that extra magic???

I think we'll find out with the M2...and it's I-6

[Mark's M]

Originally Posted by M3RD

Mark, that sounds like a hell of a good idea perhaps we find a bunch of Canadians to do this ... it be great if we can all make a super deal at Budd's they are great people to deal with. Perhaps a specific thread on this when we come closer to the time of decision

BTW ... I got my last ///M3 at Budd's

Happy 2013 to you and yours!

Absolutely mister. Just put it out to see if there was any potential for future interest...knowing that we're still 2 yrs or so away. Good to hear from you and we'll talk.....Mark

[BMW269]

Originally Posted by ozinaldo

My above post was just trying to point out that a four cylinder turbo will not "yet" surpass a six cylinder twin turbo which has 50 % more displacement, at least not in the coming few years, later is another story of course.

I don't think anybody said that. The point is that the M2 will just not "need" that extra.

Originally Posted by Mark's M

In these lean times (despite the fact that BMW is doing exceptionally well and bucking the trend), how much R&D, time and money will BMW and sister division ///M put into a 4 cyl motor destined to power such a niche vehicle as the M2 (and probably a 4 dr version of some sort later on)??

Kardboard argues why BMW would put essentially the same motor into the M2 and M4 (albeit detuned for the M2). To counter, the N55 appears to be BMW's bread and butter motor that powers just about everything in their lineup in some form or another - with minor adjustments to tune, etc depending on the model. In the upcoming M4, the N55 will have been developed to its zenith...and M4 buyers will be justifiably paying for the ultimate in precision and power from this highly modified engine.

To build upon the N55 in the euro M135 and bring it up to the appropriate performance expectations of consumers (everyone's talking somewhere between 340 and 360 hp for either the 4 cyl or 6 cyl) would be exceptionally cost effective and still offer a discernable distinction between the current M-Performance motor and one destined for the M2. A similar distinction (actually much greater, approx. +100 hp) will separate the M2 and the M3. So yes....similar building blocks but 3 very unique end products.

And if there are concerns that the performance levels of future M2's and M4's would be too close with the N55 as it's core motor, there'll be even greater concerns about the similarities between the M-Performance I-6 and M2 I-4 motors once the M135/M235 are global automobiles. M135/M235 owners will be in their glory and will they "step up" to a 4 cylinder motor?

Speaking of which, the N20, is similarly populating the BMW range, from the X1 through to the 5 series here in N/A. It's a great motor (I've driven it extensively in X1's and F30's) but bumping it up in power (from a reliable 240 hp/260 lbs tq) to the 350-360 range with the appropriate low-end grunt that the M-Performance I-6 provides will be a financial challenge. And "reliable" at this level means typical BMW overengineering which equates to more $$$.

As for weight....I strongly suspect that BMW ///M will compensate their use of the modified N55 with structural modifications to the 2 er platform. The exceptionally consistant rave reviews that the M-Performance M135i has garnered are the result of BMW ///M's "engineering & content medling" to the tune of only 30% or so over an AG model. A purpose-built ///M vehicle is massaged by ///M division to the tune of 80% over an AG model (as per BMW's Christof Lischka). Wow...what would the owners and drivers of the M135i do with all that extra magic???

I think we'll find out with the M2...and it's I-6

If BMW will not do that, spend R&D for an M2 worthy engine, it will be really disapointing for all true BMW enthusiasts. How come the everything that made up BMW is now done better by its rivals? How is it Audi Quattro can spend on a "new" 2.0l I4 making 300 PS, evenmoreso Mercedes AMG on a brand new 2.0l I4 making 350 PS (if rumors are true)?

I really do not know what will an I6 bring for an M2? The BRZ/GT86 was voted COTY by so many journals, on paper it was really to worst, and even in real life its 200 Nm are almost shameful for a car called sportscar.


I do understand you however, for getting from a V8 (E9XM) to an I4 (M2).

[strati1]

I4 or I6 it will be great, all I care is that I can pick up a used 1m for a reasonable price once it's released.

[Mark's M]

Originally Posted by Levi

I don't think anybody said that. The point is that the M2 will just not "need" that extra.

If BMW will not do that, spend R&D for an M2 worthy engine, it will be really disapointing for all true BMW enthusiasts. How come the everything that made up BMW is now done better by its rivals? How is it Audi Quattro can spend on a "new" 2.0l I4 making 300 PS, evenmoreso Mercedes AMG on a brand new 2.0l I4 making 350 PS (if rumors are true)?

I really do not know what will an I6 bring for an M2? The BRZ/GT86 was voted COTY by so many journals, on paper it was really to worst, and even in real life its 200 Nm are almost shameful for a car called sportscar.

I do understand you however, for getting from a V8 (E9XM) to an I4 (M2).

Levi you make some valid points and if you and the others hoping for an I-4 are correct, it had better be able to satisfy the consumers expecting sufficient torque and the right visceral excitement. And yes you're right, I'm used to the V-8's and the fabulous N55 and N54 motored cars that I have/have had along with all the other bimmers I've owned since 1979 (and those early ones were 4 cylindered btw....all I could afford back then lol).

But just so you know that I'm not a complete 4 cyl hater, I've got a Golf R in the family that's tuned to approx. 300 hp and similar torques. Fabulous car, fun car, does most everything exceptionally well and it's fast and has lots of grunt but...it's a 4. And I know it every second that I'm in it. Then again, the Golf R and similarly sized hot hatches like the Renault Megane 265, Opel/Vauxhall VXR, Focus ST and all the other 2.0 L wondercars you guys have in Europe (ok we've got the ST now) are meant to have 4's. It's what the market continues to demand and what auto manufacturers do best.....for this class of automobile.

If I did a seat of the pants, side by side comparison of my R with our N/A 135i right now - on road or on track - there'd be "one" clear winner. No pun intended. Ramp that up to a comparison between the R and the M135i and BMW could be arrested for bullying. One step further with an R or similar vs the 1M and the comparisons become absolutely pointless.

Is BMW ///M suddenly going to fight fair in 2015??? I think not. I hope not. In my mind, despite the similar sizing and intended purpose of all these vehicles, the BMW's occupy and define a different class. They seem to have a knack for this and I'd be surprised to see them change their game with the M2.

Last point.....I was really excited a few months ago when a good friend bought a FR-S (our BRZ/GT86). Got to drive it/ride in it quite a lot since then. Pretty cool car but on the road where all of us drive almost all of the time (come on, be honest...track days are just a once-in-awhile treat) it is harsh, noisy, way too underpowered, cheesy inside with hard plastic everywhere and the list goes on. Great seats, gearbox and steering feel though. And it's tossable as all of the journalists have said. But I could never live with this car as is. An I-6 would fix it right up

Cheers!

[TheDeliverator]

Any current E92 M3 owners thinking about changing up to the new M2 when it comes out?

Sure, it's a few years away but...