[den525]

Several months back I decided to give Manhart Performance's MHtronik Stage 1 module a try. It was advertised at €2676 plus shipping. Minus the VAT and a discount, I ended up pay just under €2,000. Which is not cheap at all.

The communication of the whole transaction was really good, quick replies and good to deal with.

Received the product pretty quickly as well, well packaged box in good condition.

Installed the product, it was somewhat of a struggle, because LHD and RHD cars the configuration of the engine bay there are minor differences. Hence wires required extensions, which Manhart did not consider while producing the product to sell to RHD destinations.

Initial thoughts were it "improved", it felt faster. So I booked in a dyno day with a few other cars to test the tune out.

Then the problems started coming...!! So Manhart advertised that the module does not require to be removed for it to go back to stock. They said "just unplug it". It didn't work, it was throwing codes. It took them around 10 days of umming and ahhing, but ultimately no solution.

Took the car for a dyno anyway, I couldn't get a baseline figure, to compare. However a M135i did 210rwkw stock and 231rwkw with a JB4. I did a 218rwkw with the manhart performance box, which was a very minor gain.

So I contacted Manhart again looking for answers, now they're saying I didn't install it properly, (because I used positaps for the canbus rather than soldering the wires together), which JB4 customers would know positaps works exactly the same way, why strip the wires and solder it together when you can you positaps for the same outcome. They insisted that it's the only way, so I went and soldering the wires together. And obviously it made no difference.

So contacted manhart again looking for answers, now the communications started to become really slow, several days for a respond, and nothing significant and no solutions.

So I decided I've had enough, I went to BMR to get them to remove it, while they were removing it, they said installation was very good, all connections installed properly, which they should know they've installed hundreds of JB4s. So decided to get a flash tune instead, stock dyno'd 216rwkw and tuned dyno'd 266rwkw.

So contacted manhart again telling them the manhart was faulty, advertising were misleading and performance figures was incorrectly advertised, sent them all the dyno figures as well, it took them a good month and threat to take legal actions for them to agree to a full refund.

So I sent the item back (express 3-5 business days), it arrived in Germany on time, an attempt of delivery was made within that time frame, and delivery failed. It took manhart another 10+ days before they picked the item up.

Now comes the fun part. So I gave them a few days to check out the item, contacted them with bank/paypal details for refund, took them a good week before replying, saying finance girl is "sick", ok fair enough... emailed them again several days later for an update, "we're at the geneva motor show" will be back in a week... Ok. Contacted them again asking for an update, another several days for a respond, finance girl is still sick. So I asked why did the finance girl go to geneva motor show? And now he says it's his wife!

So this was 4-5 weeks after they received the box. I decided to bombard them with emails everyday looking for my refund. They finally said ok "will transfer you money", I received a notification on my paypal of €1000, I questioned where's the rest? They said it's Friday I'll send you €1000 now and the rest on Monday, I give you my word. I insisted I want the full amount, and they said they can't.

So I don't know if it was stupid of me to accept the €1000. Hoping they'd keep their word? But I'm sure you know where the story is heading. Comes Monday, I contacted them again about the rest of my money, no response for several days again! When they finally responded, they said, our technician said you've damaged the harness, will need to see how much it cost to repair. I instantly replied saying, it wasn't damaged when I used positaps, but you insisted I strip the wires and solder the wires together (how else am I going to remove the wires without cutting it?). Several emails back to forth them saying you damaged the wires...

And that was a week ago....

I think I've been fair with them, I received a product that didn't work, I should be entitled to a full refund (which is a german consumer law as well).

What is there to do? To be honest, it's not even about the money anymore, it's €1000, it's not a big amount, but now it's just the principle, they agreed to a full refund, and they refuse to pay up.

[abirmaher]

Thanks for heads up... Should have just gone jb4 or flash from the beginning. Sorry you went through that.

[den525]

Originally Posted by abirmaher

Thanks for heads up... Should have just gone jb4 or flash from the beginning. Sorry you went through that.

I think what went through my mind was the same with most people with a car that was under 1 year old... Warranty... I've always had flash tunes on my old cars, but BMW's ECUs are hard to crack, process is not as simple and not many places did it. So had to go piggyback for the "easy removal"... I read JB4s had a bit of inconsistencies (which was proven in my mate's M135 he's gone to flash as well now). So i went with manhart, which was my fault not doing thorough research and should've thought twice when not many cars had it (only 2-3 customer reviews)

End of the day, lesson learnt I guess. It's not necessarily completely manhart's problem as well, it doesn't help their product wasn't good, but the lesson is to get something with local support.

[knightsabers]

Originally Posted by den525

I think what went through my mind was the same with most people with a car that was under 1 year old... Warranty... I've always had flash tunes on my old cars, but BMW's ECUs are hard to crack, process is not as simple and not many places did it. So had to go piggyback for the "easy removal"... I read JB4s had a bit of inconsistencies (which was proven in my mate's M135 he's gone to flash as well now). So i went with manhart, which was my fault not doing thorough research and should've thought twice when not many cars had it (only 2-3 customer reviews)

End of the day, lesson learnt I guess. It's not necessarily completely manhart's problem as well, it doesn't help their product wasn't good, but the lesson is to get something with local support.

That sucks Sounds like dodgy practice expected more from Manhart since it's quite renowned. Luckily I went with the Flash tune from BMR certainly worth the extra over the JB4

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by den525

I think what went through my mind was the same with most people with a car that was under 1 year old... Warranty... I've always had flash tunes on my old cars, but BMW's ECUs are hard to crack, process is not as simple and not many places did it. So had to go piggyback for the "easy removal"... I read JB4s had a bit of inconsistencies (which was proven in my mate's M135 he's gone to flash as well now). So i went with manhart, which was my fault not doing thorough research and should've thought twice when not many cars had it (only 2-3 customer reviews)

End of the day, lesson learnt I guess. It's not necessarily completely manhart's problem as well, it doesn't help their product wasn't good, but the lesson is to get something with local support.

Thank you for the review and sorry to hear about your experience

i would like to comment on your statement that i marked in red

You are the only Manhart customer i know of and already your review of them was bad

Thousands if not more of JB4 have been sold around the world with more than 95% happy customers. .. Just because JB4 has couple bad reviews does not make it inconsistent

[den525]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

Thank you for the review and sorry to hear about your experience

i would like to comment on your statement that i marked in red

You are the only Manhart customer i know of and already your review of them was bad

Thousands if not more of JB4 have been sold around the world with more than 95% happy customers. .. Just because JB4 has couple bad reviews does not make it inconsistent

Sorry mike I'm unsure what you're trying to achieve here by going off topic. My mate's jb4 had a lot of niggles, which is what was stated, I don't know why there's a need for you to go defend every bad review of jb4.

[2Banger]

Crazy, they;re supposed to be this BIG prestigious brand that if you got it... you'd be set far apart from others due to pricing and quality

what a laugh that is lol

[MANHART_Performance_GER]

Good day @ALL,

We believe this issue is caused by the failure of installation. We adviced the customer to use a dealer for this and not install it on yourown.

After the return of the item the harness was cut off at an inappropriate place. Now we need to order a new harness.

We will clarify this issue internally with Mr. Tam. We must say that a huge quantity of MHtronik's have been installed around the world and we never experienced any issues.

best regards, Manhart_Performance

[MANHART_Performance_GER]

picture.

[alexc93]

Originally Posted by MANHART_Performance_GER

Good day @ALL,

We believe this issue is caused by the failure of installation. We adviced the customer to use a dealer for this and not install it on yourown.

After the return of the item the harness was cut off at an inappropriate place. Now we need to order a new harness.

We will clarify this issue internally with Mr. Tam. We must say that a huge quantity of MHtronik's have been installed around the world and we never experienced any issues.

best regards, Manhart_Performance

I know MHTronik's have received very good reveiws from others, and I cannot speak for myself so I am just defending OP a bit on this one...those harness' cost nothing to you guys, maybe $20 at most... Keeping 1000Euros for a damaged harness, is a bit much don't you think?

[den525]

Originally Posted by MANHART_Performance_GER

Good day @ALL,

We believe this issue is caused by the failure of installation. We adviced the customer to use a dealer for this and not install it on yourown.

After the return of the item the harness was cut off at an inappropriate place. Now we need to order a new harness.

We will clarify this issue internally with Mr. Tam. We must say that a huge quantity of MHtronik's have been installed around the world and we never experienced any issues.

best regards, Manhart_Performance

That is an extremely ridiculous statement and false. At no point prior to purchase did Manhart suggest installation must be done by a Manhart dealer, only after purchase on the instructions it states "Due to the technical complexity, we recommend that you To be carried out installation by an authorized contractor."

Do manhart have an Australian dealer? No. If the module should only be installed by a Manhart dealer, then Manhart shouldn't sell their products to a country that doesn't have an authorised dealer!

Module was installed and uninstalled by a qualified mechanic. I don't see how that is a problem.

I think most forum members can see what manhart is trying to do here, Manhart is clearly denying responsibility of their products, by stating in the instructions such as must be installed by authorised dealers, therefore they don't have to take any responsibility when their product is faulty.

Originally Posted by alexc93

I know MHTronik's have received very good reveiws from others, and I cannot speak for myself so I am just defending OP a bit on this one...those harness' cost nothing to you guys, maybe $20 at most... Keeping 1000Euros for a damaged harness, is a bit much don't you think?

Exactly! It's like saying if I order a $100 steak, take a bite out of it, realise the steak is off, and the restaurant will only give me $50 back because I took a bite out of it.

[MANHART_Performance_GER]

This is the picture of the cut harness (left item). on the right side we see the untouched harness.

[alexc93]

Originally Posted by MANHART_Performance_GER

This is the picture of the cut harness (left item). on the right side we see the untouched harness.

As I mentioned, these harness' cost you guys next to nothing. They are manufactured by the thousands...

Why does a 1000Euro's seem a fair cost for something that cost you at most $20?

[den525]

Originally Posted by MANHART_Performance_GER

This is the picture of the cut harness (left item). on the right side we see the untouched harness.

Please note, the rest of the harness was not pictured. It still doesn't cost 837.50EUR to replace that part.

[den525]

I would like to make a note of the timeline of what process of the refund.

16th Jan - I asked for a solution with the faulty item
18th Jan - I asked for an update.
21st Jan - I asked for another update.
22nd Jan - Manhart replied "tomorrow we have a solution"
23rd Jan - I asked for an update.
26th Jan - I asked for another update.
26th Jan - Manhart replied "My technician has a flu, we'll solve this ASAP"
28th Jan - I asked for an update, if no update I want a refund of the item.
1st Feb - I asked for another update.
1st Feb - Manhart replied " Please send the box back to manhart, we'll return full funds"
3rd Feb - I posted the item back via express delivery (3-5 business days)
10th Feb - attempted delivery
(PM message me if you want to see the tracking number)
24th Feb - Manhart finally decided to pick up item from German post office (14 days after attempted delivery).
24th Feb - Same day I sent refund details
26th Feb - I asked for an update.
27th Feb - Manhart responded "we send you money next week"
1st Mar - I asked for an update.
1st Mar - Manhart responded "i am at geneva auto show up to wednesday. When i arrive back i send the money"
4th Mar - I asked for an update.
5th Mar - Manhart responded "Dear Dennis, everything is in the process. The moneytransfer is in the finance department."
5th Mar - I asked if funds will be sent today
5th Mar - Manhart responded "Sorry but the girl at finance department was ill."
5th Mar - I replied "Ok. I just want to know when I’m getting the funds back. It’s a large sum of money, which I need."
5th Mar - Manhart replied "Dear Dennis, i give my word that we can send you on monday for sure 1000€ over paypal to hurry up with the process."
5th Mar - I replied "1000EUR was not what was agreed upon"
5th Mar - Manhart replied "i don’t want trouble with you and we are in front of the weekend. I send you right now 1000€ over paypal. Our technical guy Mr. Uttermann has checked the box and i still waiting of the report. After we have finish the process also with the finance department we find a good solution for booth sides."
7th Mar - I asked for an update of remaining balance.
7th Mar - Manhart replied "Please see a picture attached. our engineer informed us that we can repair the cable since it was cut off. We currently clarifying how to handle this situation and will revert to you asap with an answer."
9th Mar - I asked for another update. And said I'll take legal actions if fund are not returned.
22nd Mar - Manhart's lawyers replied in a long email basically saying remaining funds will not be returned.

As you can see of the timeline, I sent item back as soon as they've agreed on a refund. Disregarding the 15 days it took manhart to pick up the item from post office.

They received the box on the 24th Feb, for 2 weeks they promised funds will be returned funds are on the way. Not until the 7th Mar, 13 days after the received the item, did they raise the problem of wiring being damaged. For the next 2 days I asked for an update, and Manhart didn't reply, for the next 2 weeks, I received no updates on repair costs of wiring, no solutions, no communication with me in regards to what can be done (I was happy to deduct cost of repair of a single wiring or even the whole cable).

Finally on the 22nd march 2 weeks after I received any communications from Manhart. I received the email from Manhart's lawyers stating they've informed me that the module wasn't defective (false), said I've "massively damaged the wires" (no solution offered as promised), they said I've returned the module damaged (false), also saying I'm making false and defamatory statements on forums (false), and finally they said no funds will be returned, as the cost to restore the module and wiring would cost 1000EUR. Therefore, no funds will be returned and the refunded 1000EUR was seen as a sign of goodwill (false).

So people can take their own views on this, they've had plenty of time to resolve this and they didn't, they agreed for a refund had the product in their possession to be inspected for 2 weeks, during that time they kept insisting money will be sent, why? If there's a problem, why promise money will be sent throughout the process?

Accused of defamation as well, however, it's not defamation if it's the truth. They've produced a legal document full of lies (defamation on me actually).

[Luminous]

Wow that's crazy, I hope you get this sorted ASAP! I did have the Manhart box for a while and was quite pleased with the results, but this type of customer service is definitely unacceptable. Hope they realize the 1000 euros isn't worth the bad publicity.

[Cloud IX]

Originally Posted by MANHART_Performance_GER

This is the picture of the cut harness (left item). on the right side we see the untouched harness.

2 cut wires = 1000 EUROS.

[den525]

Originally Posted by Luminous

Wow that's crazy, I hope you get this sorted ASAP! I did have the Manhart box for a while and was quite pleased with the results, but this type of customer service is definitely unacceptable. Hope they realize the 1000 euros isn't worth the bad publicity.

Yea I saw your review, with pretty impressive results, hence why I decided to go with Manhart. However, I had my mechanic install it, took it on a dyno day and results vastly differs from yours. It made 5hp extra vs 64hp and made 10nm more vs claimed 80nm more.

As for customer service? yes it's awful. They weren't helpful at all coming up with a solution, extremely unprofessional with their dealing with the whole situation. It would've been much easier for them to say, send it back we'll evaluate the problem, and offer a solution, and offer me x amount in compensation, that way it would've been much better.

After so many weeks and deception from Manhart, I've come to the realisation that Manhart weren't going to keep their word, or act in a professional manner, therefore I decided to warn fellow members about my experience with manhart (knowingly as soon as I posted I would have 0 chance of receiving the rest of my money).

[BentZero]

Originally Posted by MANHART_Performance_GER

This is the picture of the cut harness (left item). on the right side we see the untouched harness.

Seriously dude, you're not doing yourself any favors. I'm more concerned about how you guys handled the situation. Refund the dude, inspect the hardware AND software of the returned unit. If it checks out sell it as an open box item and get some money back.

I get that you can't just refund everyone for potentially botched installs, but the timeline and manner in which you responded to this customer is pretty disheartening.

[Richy_Boy]

So, I don't get it..

They told you to cut the perfectly good plug off and hard-wire the cable to the car? Then complained the cable had been cut and refused to refund the money (as they had promised)? I can only think something got lost in translation somewhere...

Personally, I'd ask them for evidence the box was damaged and assuming there is an email with them saying to hard-wire the cable, then what can they or their lawyers say?

The lawyer firm is probably the finance/secretary/wife with a made up letter heading anyway!

I won't be touching their products if they see keeping $1000 a fair deal..

BTW, I assume they're a German company, so are LHD there (unlike UK, which is RHD).

Rich

[den525]

Originally Posted by Richy_Boy

So, I don't get it..

They told you to cut the perfectly good plug off and hard-wire the cable to the car? Then complained the cable had been cut and refused to refund the money (as they had promised)? I can only think something got lost in translation somewhere...

Personally, I'd ask them for evidence the box was damaged and assuming there is an email with them saying to hard-wire the cable, then what can they or their lawyers say?

The lawyer firm is probably the finance/secretary/wife with a made up letter heading anyway!

I won't be touching their products if they see keeping $1000 a fair deal..

BTW, I assume they're a German company, so are LHD there (unlike UK, which is RHD).

Rich

Hey rich

Basically this involved 2 wires, the wire to the fuse, it was too short due to the configuration of LHD engine bay and RHD engine bay. It required extending.

The 2nd wire is for the CANBUS. Basically in order for module to communicate with the car you need to "tap" into the car. It's the same with any piggyback system (jb4 as well). But the difference is jb4 uses positaps where it's a little device with a pin that pricks each wire (I did that first, that would've caused the least damage to wiring especially my car), they said that's why the module "wasn't performing", they asked me to solder the wires together, which meant stripping the wires on the harness and my car! I followed their instructions.

So they didn't ask me to cut the wires but they asked me to strip the wires and solder it onto my car (it was clear on the instructions as well), so stripping the wires is damaging the wires already, so when it came to removal, my mechanic asked if it should just be cut off since it can't be reused or repackaged it they want to sell it on. So I did.

Manhart is refusing payment because of damaged wires, but their instructions require you to damage it.

They're basically trying to find excuses not to refund.

1000euro for the damaged wires, maybe I should charge them 30,000Euro for damaging the wires on my car!

[den525]

Another 2 weeks and still no response from MANHART_Performance_GER