[Dannyxz]

Hello all,

I’ve had my M235i for about 2 weeks now (first manual car). I can drive just fine for the most part, but my shifts aren’t that smooth. The car kind of bogs down in-between shifts and I’m having trouble realizing why.

Clutch in, foot off throttle, upshift, slowly release clutch and give gas.

Am I not giving enough gas, or maybe I am releasing the clutch too fast?

This also happens when I get into first gear.

At a stop I release the clutch until the biting point, and then I slowly start giving gas while releasing the clutch. 1st gear is much smoother, but I get off the line very slowly.

Appreciate any tips!

[Bruceflorida]

Being your first manual car all it’s gonna take is practice and getting the feel for it. If it bogs down it seems you’re shifting early or not fast enough

[Sportstick]

I notice that some new manual drivers have a tendency to think subconsciously of the shift as two motions...for example, 1st to the neutral area, and then a second pull into 2nd gear for example. I don't mean this so literally as two separate actions, but it's not the same as thinking of one quick motion from one end of the gate to the other....snap! When this happens, revs drop and the feeling of bogging down is actually the engine having to speed up again from its dropping to idle when the next gear is engaged. I have no idea if you do this, but when standing still, motor off, try your natual motion from 1st to 2nd and see if it's one full-travel snap of your wrist and not something slowed as your traverse the middle part of the throw. Arm chair diagnosing is very risky, so sorry if I'm far off-base here. If you can find a safe, wide-open space to experiment, try driving in your current style while watching the tach and see if the needle drops as you clutch-in to leave a gear, as it should, but instead of settling nicely into a lower rpm for the next higher gear, does it drop even further and then jump up again as you engage? Is that the sense of "bogging" you feel? Again...safety first...find somewhere empty and open to try this.

[AndDown]

I haven’t driven any of the current MTs but with my E46, I found there was a sweet spot at around 2500 rpm when engaging into first. I also don’t grab the shifter with my whole palm while shifting, but use the palm/fingers method - there should be YouTubes on this technique.

[p912guy]

As Bruceflorida said, it just takes practice. Once you get used to the MT, you'll find it is very smooth. As Sportstick mentions, the gear change should be one complete fluid motion. That said, don't rush it. The MT in the 2 Series doesn't respond well, at least for me, to slamming the gear shift, especially from 1st to 2nd. The other thing I'd mention is run the revs to 4K+ as you're accelerating and moving up through the gears and don't be afraid to give it some gas. Some folks I've seen are attempting to shift up to the next gear at 2K rpm. Finally, don't baby the car - drive it like you stole it.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by p912guy

As Bruceflorida said, it just takes practice. Once you get used to the MT, you'll find it is very smooth. As Sportstick mentions, the gear change should be one complete fluid motion. That said, don't rush it. The MT in the 2 Series doesn't respond well, at least for me, to slamming the gear shift, especially from 1st to 2nd. The other thing I'd mention is run the revs to 4K+ as you're accelerating and moving up through the gears and don't be afraid to give it some gas. Some folks I've seen are attempting to shift up to the next gear at 2K rpm. Finally, don't baby the car - drive it like you stole it.

Well said. I didn't mean to convey "slam" but your words of one complete fluid motion are better, and may I add, OP should think about speed and force as two different dimensions. Don't linger. It's not a date.

[Dannyxz]

Thanks for all the replies guys.

So do you all also recommend learning heel-toe downshifting from the get go?

[msej449]

How about double de-clutching*? It does tend to produce very smooth upshifts. Even as just a transitional approach. Just a thought. I know that synchromesh obviates the need for this now, but I recently gave it a go to show my son the technique (I had to learn it to pass my test 50 years ago) and it did seem to make shifts smoother.

[*e.g. to go from 1st>2nd you

1. press clutch ↓
2. shift into neutral
3. release clutch ↑
4. press clutch ↓
5. shift into 2nd gear
6. release clutch ↑

The gap in time between step 3↑ and 4↓ allows the revs to drop ready for the lower revs needed for the higher gear. When down-shifting, you blip the gas between the two clutch presses to get the revs up, ready for the lower gear. If you think you need to downshift more than 1 gear then you perhaps blip the accelerator a bit more than for a single gear downshift. Think of it as a Waltz: 1-2-3/1-2-3 comprising two moves: clutch-neutral-clutch and clutch-gear-clutch. Once you master it it's very rewarding and on downshifting for a corner, means you avoid the 'gearing lurch' that can destabilise the rear end when the revs don't match the gear being engaged.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by Dannyxz

Thanks for all the replies guys.

So do you all also recommend learning heel-toe downshifting from the get go?

Heel/toe is an expert move and not necessary for the street.

I've been driving sticks since the late 1980s and most of my cars have been sticks. I find the clutch in these cars to be a bit annoying in daily driving and can make even the best manual driver look like an amateur. BMW has gone to great lengths to make the shifting smooth, but they've COMPLETELY killed all clutch feel through the pedal with a clutch delay valve and super light clutch pedal plus BMW has programmed in some light rev matching when you initially release the clutch pedal which can make for unsmooth starts. The clutch delay valve also causes the clutch to catch in slightly different spots depending on its mood.

Under hard driving and driven in anger, the 6MT really works well. In around town driving, I've never owned a manual that requires me to think so much starting out in 1st or the 1-2 shift.

It's just going to take some practice to get smooth. On the 1-2 shift, I've found winding it to 3,500rpms in 1st makes for a much smoother shift rather than shifting lower.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by Dannyxz

Thanks for all the replies guys.

So do you all also recommend learning heel-toe downshifting from the get go?

No....that's a track technique. I'd focus more on the basics and getting to know the feel of your car so you can execute normal driving smoothly.

[35mmSummicron]

I find the gear ratios going from 1>2 in the m240i the trickiest (M2 OG 6MT I test drove had much smoother feel).

In most daily driving scenarios, I'm shifting in the 2500-3500rpm range.
The clutch engagement sweet spot is very close to the floor. If I ever experience a rough shift, its because either 1) I don't gas hard enough/quick enough before the revs start dropping too much, or 2) I've already released the clutch too far past that sweet spot.

In my experience, shifting quickly 1>2 and getting on the gas *just* before you feel resistance gets you the smooth shift. All other gears are super easy and can be done casually.

[Nyorky2428]

If you focus on the gear ratios and know how they relate to speed in each gear. For example, 2nd is the easiest since it's basically 1000:10 (i.e. 4,000rpms = 40mph) whereas 40mph in 3rd gear is around 2,800rpms (IIRC). So if you let the transmission naturally fall and time the clutch disengagement at 2,800; it'll be smooth

[Dannyxz]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

No....that's a track technique. I'd focus more on the basics and getting to know the feel of your car so you can execute normal driving smoothly.

So right now when approaching a rolling stop, I just throw the car in neutral until I have slowed down enough to be in 2nd gear and then take the turn or U-turn. I know it all comes with practice, but I can’t understand how to down shift fast enough all the while rev-matching. Feels like I’ll land on top of the car in front of me.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by Dannyxz

So right now when approaching a rolling stop, I just throw the car in neutral until I have slowed down enough to be in 2nd gear and then take the turn or U-turn. I know it all comes with practice, but I can’t understand how to down shift fast enough all the while rev-matching. Feels like I’ll land on top of the car in front of me.

As you approach a rolling slow/stop and reacceleration, I suggest that if starting in 4th or 5th, you simply brake to lose some speed while in gear, and my preferred technique is to then do a sequence of double clutch downshifts to the gear I intend to use to reaccelerate. I'm never just coasting in neutral, as it sacrifices quick control of the car.

For example, a double clutch downshift from 4th to 3rd, and this will take practice:

• Foot in on clutch, shift to neutral
• Release clutch, moderate rev of the engine while trans is in neutral
• Depress clutch, shift to 3rd
• Release clutch, perhaps with a feather of throttle for smoothness

If you plan to exit the turn in 2nd, do this same process again to leave 3rd for 2nd. This doesn't require heel/toe, but just a bit of quicker foot movement, once you get the basics down slowly and practice.

This technique relieves your trans synchos of stress, can be done quickly and reduces the force needed to push the gear shift level. You will feel the lever easily slide into the new gear when you've revved properly to match the trans and engine speeds. Finally, once you get it, it's actually quite fun! If my 65 year old feet can do this, I'm sure you'll get it quite quickly!

[AndDown]

Hey OP, here's an excellent series of how to drive a manual shift. I learnt something about downshifting, lol (video #4)

[jules_78th]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Under hard driving and driven in anger, the 6MT really works well. In around town driving, I've never owned a manual that requires me to think so much starting out in 1st or the 1-2 shift.

Lol so true. When driving under "normal" mode, esp when I have my wife or friends on the car, I try my darnedest to shift smoothly, but fail pretty miserably from 1 to 2. But when launching the gear shifting/transition is so smooth and here I am thinking I'm just overthinking it when driving normal hence the fail

[EstorilM240]

I’ve had my M235i for about 2 weeks now (first manual car). I can drive just fine for the most part, but my shifts aren’t that smooth. The car kind of bogs down in-between shifts and I’m having trouble realizing why.

My guess is that by "bogging down", you are shifting too slowly on upshifts (letting the revs drop too much between gears) and you can alleviate this by getting off the gas earlier or taking a bit longer to shift. My conception of bogging down (as in the car slows down, as opposed to the engine) might be the opposite of what you think though.

For upshifts there are generally two cases of unsmoothness:

1. The engine revs are too high for your new gear, and you are being pulled back in your seat (accelerated) when you release the clutch. Example: You are at 3000RPM in 1st, and shift to 2nd gear. To match the speed you should be at 1700RPM, but you actually release the clutch at 2500RPM, causing the engine to suddenly slow down to 1800RPM and you are pushed forward by the energy release. The solution here is to keep the revs lower: You might be staying on the gas too long in 1st gear while pushing in the clutch, you might not be giving enough time for the revs to drop.

2. The opposite problem is if the engine revs are too low for your new gear, and you are being pushed forward (slowed down) as you release the clutch. Example, you are at 3000RPM in 1st, and shift to 2nd gear. You should be about 1800RPM in the new gear, but you take so long that you are actually at 1000RPM. As you release the clutch, the engine is actually sped up to 1700RPM, and you are "bogged up" but slowed down. If you have this problem, you want to shift faster, or perhaps apply a tiny bit of gas as you release the clutch.

For instance, you can look at the spec sheet if you want to see all the math: https://www.bimmerpost.com/goodiesfo...oupe-specs.pdf
1st gear is 4.11 and 2nd gear is 2.315, so that means 3000RPM in 1st gear is 1700RPM in 2nd, 3000RPM in 2nd gear is 2000RPM, etc.

The M240i actually has auto-rev-match which helps on upshifts in the second case, in that it will prevent the revs from falling too low, but the M235i does not. I have driven other manual cars before without auto rev match, and while you adapt and start to time shifts better, the auto-rev-match still helps smoothness a bit.

Most people figure it out with some rough trial and error, but knowing the theory and math can help wonders, just don't overthink it, and don't stare at the tachometer while you drive.

BTW, double declutching, heel-toe, etc. are all very advanced techniques and nearly useless for smooth upshifting, I wouldn't recommend it for a 2 week old manual driver. As for downshifting for corners, I would brake in 4th gear until right before the corner, then slowly downshift into 2nd right before the corner. At that point you'll be going slow enough that the unsmoothness will be minimal. A few months in once you're familiar, you can try more advanced techniques. Synchros on modern cars are almost certainly good enough to not need double clutching

[Dannyxz]

Originally Posted by jules_78th

Lol so true. When driving under "normal" mode, esp when I have my wife or friends on the car, I try my darnedest to shift smoothly, but fail pretty miserably from 1 to 2. But when launching the gear shifting/transition is so smooth and here I am thinking I'm just overthinking it when driving normal hence the fail

Guess I might not be as bad as I think! I baby the clutch as much as possible now and I apply more throttle. Seems to help somehow.

[albertw]

I read several threads about the MT in the 235 & 240 before buying. This is the first one that actually discusses the negatives of it. Prior to this all I saw was praise, despite explicit questions about how well it works.

For me (90% of my cars have had manuals) the engine should respond instantly and proportionately to the throttle given while downshifting, and on upshifts the revs should drop just about as quickly as I can move the shift lever. Many of my early cars were like this, but pollution controls have taken most newer cars far away from this ideal. A car doesn't have to move too far into hanging throttle and lazy blip response for the fun of driving a manual to be killed by the annoyance of poor engine response.

It sounds to me, from only this one thread, that I made the right choice in buying an auto (no MT cars were available for a test drive within 1000 miles). I'm very happy I took with a grain of salt all the other posts in all the other threads that seem to have been written by MT fanboys who either are blind to the limitations in the 2 series or couldn't admit there are problems.

[p912guy]

albertw, glad you're happy with your decision to choose the AT. We all live with our choices and nothing is perfect. That said, I have ZERO regrets in choosing the MT for my m235i vert. The gearing matches engine performance very well. If I am just commuting, shifting and gear selection are easy and really just second nature, meaning I don't think about it and don't even realize I am manually changing gears. However, if I am on a nice B road moving up and down hills and through twisty sections, the MT creates a terrifically engaged driving experience. For those of us who enjoy a more analog experience, we are glad the MT is still an option, even if only for a very limited time.

[CP911]

Originally Posted by albertw

I read several threads about the MT in the 235 & 240 before buying. This is the first one that actually discusses the negatives of it. Prior to this all I saw was praise, despite explicit questions about how well it works.

For me (90% of my cars have had manuals) the engine should respond instantly and proportionately to the throttle given while downshifting, and on upshifts the revs should drop just about as quickly as I can move the shift lever. Many of my early cars were like this, but pollution controls have taken most newer cars far away from this ideal. A car doesn't have to move too far into hanging throttle and lazy blip response for the fun of driving a manual to be killed by the annoyance of poor engine response.

It sounds to me, from only this one thread, that I made the right choice in buying an auto (no MT cars were available for a test drive within 1000 miles). I'm very happy I took with a grain of salt all the other posts in all the other threads that seem to have been written by MT fanboys who either are blind to the limitations in the 2 series or couldn't admit there are problems.

The 2-series M/T is one of the best I've ever had the pleasure of driving/owning. Not sure why you are calling people fanboys or assuming there are limitations or problems when you haven't even driven one!

Rev-hang happens when you aren't driving aggressively and can still be managed to perfection by immediately releasing the clutch pedal, but doing so in a controlled fashion to ease the RPMs down into the next gear. Drive it hard, let off the gas quickly, and the car's ECU knows what you want to do and will drop RPMs much more quickly.

I can't speak for the M235i, but my M240i with the B58 engine has very good throttle response for blipping/heel-and-toe. Again, no issues whatsoever.

I can shift my car more quickly, more accurately, and more smoothly than I could my previous 2007 Porsche Carrera S 6-speed even though it had a NA engine with no rev-hang programming. The clutch pedal was stiff as hell and the shifter action was horrible being a cable-actuated system.

Other than a Miata or S2000, my M240i has the best feeling M/T I've ever experienced in a car. Super accurate, super feel, super fun.

There are reasons to own an automatic, but in this case, it's not because the manual is bad. Quit hatin' man!

[albertw]

Originally Posted by CP911

Rev-hang happens when you aren't driving aggressively and can still be managed to perfection by immediately releasing the clutch pedal, but doing so in a controlled fashion to ease the RPMs down into the next gear.

When I learned to drive, there was none of this nonsense. The only reasons to slip the clutch after starting from a stop were (i) driver incompetence or (ii) driver indifference to machine abuse.

I don't think I will ever be able to get over my revulsion at having to rev match using the clutch. The 240 may have a pretty good clutch / engine response by present day standards, but based on what has been written in this thread it would be unacceptable to me.

I got rid of my '99 323i prematurely entirely because of this issue (test drove a 328i which was excellent, but the 323i turned out to be terrible). Went to an '01 Z06 which had excellent throttle / clutch action and happily kept it for 16 years. I would still have it if I didn't want to contract down to one car.