[243Racing]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

But that's not the data I'm talking about. HAM passed NOR in lap20 or so, way before the pitstop. The data what I'm talking about is after the pitstop where he apparently couldn't profit from new tyres the way most other cars could.

What does stroke with the data are the 3 fastest laps HAM put down. Those are lap 55, 56 and 57.
In 54 NOR passed HAM afaik.
This means he got a toe from it I guess as lap 58 was again in HAM average cloud of laps.
It can't be that he was blocking NOR all the time that may have cost him time because BOT passed HAM in 52, so it was BOT that was blocking NOR.

So I think HAMs car was not running so good on the white tyres compared to the other cars and it was a setup issue. (and not aero damage from the curb)

I was only Responding to the statement that Hamilton wasn't following close behind another car, he was in DRS range of Norris for several laps

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by BeastieBombRacing

I was only Responding to the statement that Hamilton wasn't following close behind another car, he was in DRS range of Norris for several laps

Ok,but my statement was specifically regarding the the later half of the race, after he made his pitstop. And I think you're talking about a timespan that happened in the 1st stint right?

[fiveohwblow]

Lest we forget this is the same athlete that was and is heralded as the best of all time. Even with a lesser car (not what’s being claimed) with DRS and the greatest driver of all time (what is being claimed) he couldn’t get around Lando in a mclaren in 21 laps? That’s over 60 opportunities where outmatched skillset would have afforded him the opportunity much much sooner. He then pays him a compliment as he passes. I believe some confirmatory bias of convenience happening here and guido is proving it with data.

Edit: speaking of driver skill, my lord we haven’t given George Russell his due airtime I don’t think. Man oh man, it’s no doubt what his future looks like.

[Ngilbe36]

Here's my takes from Sunday

Lando M'Fing Norris, wow. Seriously incredible performance this weekend and all year. I know I am biased since hes my favorite driver but come on, he's lighting F1 on fire with a mid-field car.

-Great race for Max, no errors. He did what he needed to win
-I think the Perez/Norris incident and the first Perez/Leclerc incidents were both racing incidents that didnt need a penalty, but IMO the second Perez/Leclerc incident seemed dirty to me.

- Great race from Russell, shame he couldnt keep Alonso behind for one more lap, but a great race nonetheless.

- Vettel was running a decent race too until that weird moment with Kimi. Not sure who is to blame there but Im leaning towards Kimi.

- Carlos had a interesting race on a strategy that worked very well for him. Ferrari has really stepped up their strategy this year and is not intentionally screwing drivers over which is cool

- Glad RIC could get up to 7th but he really needs to get a handle on quali.

- I am hoping Merc finds some performance in the next few weeks so RBR doesnt run away with it. I want to see a tight DC and CC both decided on the last race! Right now the RB is just a class above especially in Max's hands.

[243Racing]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

Ok,but my statement was specifically regarding the the later half of the race, after he made his pitstop. And I think you're talking about a timespan that happened in the 1st stint right?

Yes, you are correct my mistake.

[fiveohwblow]

Originally Posted by Autobacs

Cant copy here (due to copyright rules) but Norris, Checo, and LeClerc should watch the video of Russell and ALO's 10th place battle in You Tube. Simply Beautiful to watch very hard, clean racing.

The only correlation is around :45 where they are in turn one (where the incident happened with Lando) and you can see Alonso’s maturity in racing where he assessed the uniqueness of the corner and backed off and didn’t try to go wide. Russell, due to the corner, took the entire track to apex just like the rest of the drivers. I do not agree with your assessment and would have much less love for the sport if they were to continue setting a soft no race precedent. Let me see if I can find Lando’s explanation of that corner from a drivers perspective.

Edit: no wonder it wouldn’t allow me to quote, you deleted your post rendering mine irrelevant to those who didn’t see it.

Edit 2:

Originally Posted by LN

"From my point of view, if I want to compare it to anything it’s Max versus Lewis [Hamilton] at Imola," said Norris. “Did he get a penalty for that? No. Same thing as that. It was a re-start and Sergio knows there’s gravel on the exit of that corner. It’s downhill, easy to run wide, and that’s just what happens.

"You watch Formula 2 or Formula 3 or any category, people who try to go around the outside there and don’t commit to it end up in the gravel. That’s just the way that corner runs.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/a...hftpR0oSm.html

[Autobacs]

Cant copy here (due to copyright rules) but Norris, Checo, and LeClerc should watch the video of Russell and ALO's 10th place battle in You Tube. Simply Beautiful to watch very hard, clean racing.

[Killed by Death]

Originally Posted by Ngilbe36

Here's my takes from Sunday

Lando M'Fing Norris, wow. Seriously incredible performance this weekend and all year. I know I am biased since hes my favorite driver but come on, he's lighting F1 on fire with a mid-field car.

-Great race for Max, no errors. He did what he needed to win

-I think the Perez/Norris incident and the first Perez/Leclerc incidents were both racing incidents that didnt need a penalty, but IMO the second Perez/Leclerc incident seemed dirty to me.

- Great race from Russell, shame he couldnt keep Alonso behind for one more lap, but a great race nonetheless.

- Vettel was running a decent race too until that weird moment with Kimi. Not sure who is to blame there but Im leaning towards Kimi.

- Carlos had a interesting race on a strategy that worked very well for him. Ferrari has really stepped up their strategy this year and is not intentionally screwing drivers over which is cool

- Glad RIC could get up to 7th but he really needs to get a handle on quali.

- I am hoping Merc finds some performance in the next few weeks so RBR doesnt run away with it. I want to see a tight DC and CC both decided on the last race! Right now the RB is just a class above especially in Max's hands.

1. Have mixed feelings about the two racing incident penalties. Plus I'm an LEC fan so there's bias!!! But, I'd rather banging wheels than go off into the gravel to avoid contact. Anyone else

2. Also a Kimi fan. His fault for the second time this year

3. I'm good with tight till the end as long as Red Bull wins. ABM, Anybody But Merc

4. Thinking Silverstone will either be the turning point for MB or the end.

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

I think this diagram is really interesting.

HAM was supposed to have gotten damage at some point (I think from a curbstone) that affected his aerodynamics.

But I dont see that in that diagram. There is no distinct lap from where the lap times are lower. So he didn't suffer that much from that damage
The only thing in HAM diagram that pops out is that he didn't seem to profit that much from new tyres. Where most increased their lap times after a pit stop (going from worn tyres on a lighter car to new tyres on a lighter car) HAM lap times are pretty constant which is weird.

He suffered enough damage to cost 30 points of downforce. Thirty Points. It was so bad that they made an aero balance change which made no improvement to the car.

The car was damaged around lap 27-30 according th the engineering team at Mercedes GP, whom I'm guessing know more than all of us put together.

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by fiveohwblow

Lest we forget this is the same athlete that was and is heralded as the best of all time. Even with a lesser car (not what’s being claimed) with DRS and the greatest driver of all time (what is being claimed) he couldn’t get around Lando in a mclaren in 21 laps? That’s over 60 opportunities where outmatched skillset would have afforded him the opportunity much much sooner. He then pays him a compliment as he passes. I believe some confirmatory bias of convenience happening here and guido is proving it with data.

Edit: speaking of driver skill, my lord we haven’t given George Russell his due airtime I don’t think. Man oh man, it’s no doubt what his future looks like.

Guido's speculation is incorrect.

[243Racing]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

He suffered enough damage to cost 30 points of downforce. Thirty Points. It was so bad that they made an aero balance change which made no improvement to the car.

The car was damaged around lap 27-30 according th the engineering team at Mercedes GP, whom I'm guessing know more than all of us put together.

And a Mercedes employee would never, ever exaggerate the effects of damage on the car, right?

Just like Lewis would never, ever complain about tires over the radio as a strategic move. Perish the thought!

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by BeastieBombRacing

And a Mercedes employee would never, ever exaggerate the effects of damage on the car, right?

Just like Lewis would never, ever complain about tires over the radio as a strategic move. Perish the thought!

LOL!

You're projecting. I've personally spent time with this team and have rarely seen the type of corporate integrity and single-minded focus in any organization.

As far as the radio transmissions about Lewis and his tires go, the transmissions aren't in real-time. And tires do go through many performance phases in their life.

Keep doing you. Which is to find any way to denigrate Sir Lewis. It's a sad trope.

[fiveohwblow]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

Guido's speculation is incorrect.

I meant bubbles. Lewis’ data is the closest shot group of the whole lot. His outliers exist only further than verstappens. I find the reality that Lewis, regardless of externalities, was driving his vehicle to the best of his ability and this was not a consistent hinderance or should I say consistent result of a culmination of factors. That, to me, would be a stretch to say Lando’s fault for 21 and damage for 45. In reality, that takes a blind faith to assume these two items stopped him, especially given the notion of how he is a 7 time world champ. To further, his performance was also consistent the prior weekend showing it was the race he ran, with the car he brought.

[243Racing]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

LOL!

You're projecting. I've personally spent time with this team and have rarely seen the type of corporate integrity and single-minded focus in any organization.

As far as the radio transmissions about Lewis and his tires go, the transmissions aren't in real-time. And tires do go through many performance phases in their life.

Keep doing you. Which is to find any way to denigrate Sir Lewis. It's a sad trope.

You're in denial, bud. It's unfortunate, because it's likely you are almost as smart as you think you are, and you'd otherwise be a great fella to talk racing with. You're like the pure prototype of a fanboi.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

So,Silverstone coming and how are Merc going to tackle the fast pace with their 'barn door' wing.. still, we won't their mention their 'growing' front wing which hasn't been addressed yet.
https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/88519...lverstone.html

Whatever the Mercs wing is , or will be ...
As I said in our PM : "MAX only stretched his legs at Austria 1&2"

"THIS" is only the beginning !

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by fiveohwblow

I meant bubbles. Lewis’ data is the closest shot group of the whole lot. His outliers exist only further than verstappens. I find the reality that Lewis, regardless of externalities, was driving his vehicle to the best of his ability and this was not a consistent hinderance or should I say consistent result of a culmination of factors. That, to me, would be a stretch to say Lando’s fault for 21 and damage for 45. In reality, that takes a blind faith to assume these two items stopped him, especially given the notion of how he is a 7 time world champ. To further, his performance was also consistent the prior weekend showing it was the race he ran, with the car he brought.

Actual Lap Data...not speculation.

Austria 2021
http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?p...wis%20Hamilton

Styria 2021
http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?p...wis%20Hamilton

It can be clearly seen by comparing the lap consistency across the races for Hamilton that the Austrian times are much more erratic after lap 30.

The car was damaged.

[fiveohwblow]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

Actual Lap Data...not speculation.

Austria 2021
http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?p...wis%20Hamilton

Styria 2021
http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?p...wis%20Hamilton

It can be clearly seen by comparing the lap consistency across the races for Hamilton that the Austrian times are much more erratic after lap 30.

The car was damaged.

Not sure what you’re looking at, lap times were incredibly consistent with three best times post lap 30, a majority of the laps on the 109 like the pre lap 30 times.

[E92inNC]

Haven’t read the past couple of pages so apologies if it’s already been asked-

The format at Silverstone, are they testing it out to possibly implement in future races?

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by fiveohwblow

Not sure what you’re looking at, lap times were incredibly consistent with three best times post lap 30, a majority of the laps on the 109 like the pre lap 30 times.

I also don't see it in the lap times.
HAM keeps driving mainly low to mid 109's. Very consistenly.
His laps are one of the most consisted in the field. That's what I found so strange in that first graph.

But there are more strange things: if HAM got that damage around lap 30, in the highlights you can hear that they notify BOT of that only in lap 48. Have they really waited 18 laps to warn BOT?

[yco]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

So no proof then to back up your claim....

Can't say I'm surprised... the typical bullshit.

You say I ignore facts....
Then come up with some facts!
The only 'proof' you gave speaks against you



What don't you understand about this?!?

1. the phrase you highlighted expresses a direct and inside confession how cars were different.. + Albon tried different suspension setups, diffusers, floors, body panels etc. while Max was working on his weekend race setup.. you can check free practice sessions back in those days and which parts of the cars were different.. they re all documented.. Albon was basically a test driver while he was in Red Bull.. its not like Red Bull couldnt produce more parts.. RB has all the facilities more than they need for many years already.. but they were desperately trying to fix the car because of the downforce deficit the car was producing in wind tunnel pre-season and reality after car was on track.. if you still cant see cars were different.. sorry cant help.. actually nobody can..

2. i told you already that you can google it and see it yourself.. i wont waste more time to bring more links.. i told you that as well.. if you re loving Red Bull, it wont hurt knowing more about the team you re supporting.. and i gave up on even reading most of the posts by RB fans here for some time already.. wiki should put a link for them explaining what is BS.. if you dont believe what im saying and want to ignore videos in F1 TV archive about this.. i dont mind.. its not important at all..

3. and the words your choosing is a clear sign for me that this discussion with you is a waste of time for me GuidoK.. have a good day/evening.

Originally Posted by E92inPHX

Haven’t read the past couple of pages so apologies if it’s already been asked-

The format at Silverstone, are they testing it out to possibly implement in future races?

yup..

[GuidoK]

So I have to google and find your proof for you?

Also, if Albon was basically a test driver, wouldnt he have the newer parts earlier than VER?
or was he a test driver for the old, already tested parts?
Your story makes absolutely no sense.

The fact that you don't want to provide links containing quotes from Marko/Horner to proof that it was policy to equip 2nd driver cars with lesser parts shows that you cant back up your claim.
That makes it a wild speculation from some guy on some forum....

Originally Posted by yco

its not like Red Bull couldnt produce more parts..

again:

In this short period of time that the races are ticked off, it was not possible to have the same parts for both cars

What don't you understand about this?!?

If parts are in short supply, of course the 1st driver gets them first. That is why there is a 1st and 2nd driver. The name alone gives it away...

But they're not doing this on purpose. It's not in RB's interest to give a driver bad results on purpose, or any team for that matter.

[M5Rick]

''if the leading car edged the attacking car off the track its a slam dunk penalty, the same goes in corners''. (Referring to Sporting code appendix L)
:I didn't see him, my mirror was blurred, I couldn't move over more or would have slid.He took me by surprise... Grey is the colour,F1 is the game.
https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/88566...penalised.html