[Ron Jeffries]

I am all about winter tires. And AWD uses 4 tires worth of traction when applying power, rather than just two. You could put the back wheels up in the air and drive forward. With RWD, you couldn't.

Since brakes work on all 4, AWD doesn't help stopping with the brakes. It /might/ help under engine braking.

[Rocky58]

I live at the top of a long hill. I started putting snow tires on my RWD Infiniti when I couldn't get up the hill and was sliding around. It didn't help much when I had to get going after stopping behind another car. I had to abandon the car and get it when the snow melted some. With my Subaru, I could get up the hill but I slid a good bit with all season tires. With winter tires, I had no problem. When I brake with the Subaru, it still slides a bit when the snow and ice make the road slick but much better with snow tires. So what I take away from all this is that AWD helps a lot when you need power to all four wheels (accelerating from a stop, hill or no hill) and snow tires improve traction (control while driving and braking).

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by Rocky58

So what I take away from all this is that AWD helps a lot when you need power to all four wheels (accelerating from a stop, hill or no hill) and snow tires improve traction (control while driving and braking).

[TheSniper]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

The AWD powers two more wheels and the traction of the additional two tires is what you experience.

Would that not be considered more traction than 2WD????

[TheSniper]

And anyone who has ever experienced an unexpected snowfall while still running your summer tires will quickly find out that tires do indeed matter.

I am not debating that.

But tires being equal, AWD is superior to 2WD in slippery conditions.

I think that would be the simplest way to put it. Correct?

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by TheSniper

And anyone who has ever experienced an unexpected snowfall while still running your summer tires will quickly find out that tires do indeed matter.

I am not debating that.

But tires being equal, AWD is superior to 2WD in slippery conditions.

I think that would be the simplest way to put it. Correct?

Yes, that is true and clear. You and I agree, if we are talking about getting moving.

Unfortunately, some/too many embue AWD with "magical" powers beyond that to protect them generally in winter, not understanding the relationship/connection to tires. This is especially befuddling when they apply that to stopping/turning...and as a result remain uninformed about tires. You and I used to live in the same area and I'm sure you know some Michigan drivers who think that way, as I did. That was the point of the article in the first post that started this thread.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by TheSniper

Would that not be considered more traction than 2WD????

Yes, due the tires. There is no traction generated by any individual parts or the whole of an AWD system. What AWD can deliver, it can only deliver to the degree there are competent tires connecting to the ground, where the traction actually occurs.

Some people forget this part (not you!) and rely on the "wonderfulness" of AWD (great OEM advertising) and pay little to no attention to the tires. That's the point of the article. They overlook the potential weakest link in their setup.

[VAcurler]

All season (Michelin PS AS4) vs Snow tires (Michelin X-Ice Snow) in one picture. New car on all seasons will be sleeping outside in the snow. Old car on snow tires is nice and warm in the garage.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by VAcurler

All season (Michelin PS AS4) vs Snow tires (Michelin X-Ice Snow) in one picture. New car on all seasons will be sleeping outside in the snow. Old car on snow tires is nice and warm in the garage.

What is in the 3rd garage space?

[leftoverture]

Well, you can always try the https://www.nokiantires.com/all-weat.../nokian-wr-g4/. It is all season but supposed to be designed so special winter tires are not needed.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by leftoverture

Well, you can always try the https://www.nokiantires.com/all-weat.../nokian-wr-g4/. It is all season but supposed to be designed so special winter tires are not needed.

There is a newer category of "all weather" vs. "all season". If the tire has the snowflake emblem on the sidewall, it's considered winter-capable.

[TheSniper]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

Yes, due the tires. There is no traction generated by any individual parts or the whole of an AWD system. What AWD can deliver, it can only deliver to the degree there are competent tires connecting to the ground, where the traction actually occurs.

Some people forget this part (not you!) and rely on the "wonderfulness" of AWD (great OEM advertising) and pay little to no attention to the tires. That's the point of the article. They overlook the potential weakest link in their setup.

I think I am starting to understand your point.

I agree that marketing of premium AWD does play it's part.

I think what most of us fear is that feeling if you've ever driven a RWD vehicle in the winter and the rear end gets aways from you while making a turn or what not. Heck, even accelerating sometimes.

AWD and FWD vehicles don't typically have the rear end do that.

Braking and such doesn't improve with AWD either.


My best analogy would be, you could be the best basketball player in the world, but it you're playing in socks and everyone else is playing in sneakers, you are going to be at a severe disadvantage because socks have no grip on a hardwood floor. (Sorry, I play a lot of hoops lol)

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by leftoverture

Well, you can always try the https://www.nokiantires.com/all-weat.../nokian-wr-g4/. It is all season but supposed to be designed so special winter tires are not needed.

I put Nokian WRGs on the wife's Volvo wagon when we lived in New Hampshire. They were acceptable in the winter, but when they wore out we went back to running Nokian winter tires.

There was quite a bit of difference between the two types of tire. That mattered where we lived; it was rural and hilly, and we'd have ice a number of times each winter. The WRGs were an all-season tire skewed towards winter and were better suited to a city with well-maintained roads.

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by TheSniper

I think what most of us fear is that feeling if you've ever driven a RWD vehicle in the winter and the rear end gets aways from you while making a turn or what not. Heck, even accelerating sometimes.

Driver inputs (throttle, brakes, and steering) need to be initiated and terminated much more gently when it's slippery out. It's easy to forget that when cars are as capable as today's are, especially with layers of nannies looking after us.

Not that long ago, almost all cars were RWD, winter tires were almost the same compound as non-winter tires (but with an open tread pattern), and you learned to drive very carefully when it mattered or you ended up in the ditch.

I don't know if there's one near you, but winter driving schools are a great way to not only discover your car's limits on snow and ice, they're also an incredible amount of fun. A quick search brought this Road America school up: https://www.roadamerica.com/winter-driving.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by TheSniper

My best analogy would be, you could be the best basketball player in the world, but it you're playing in socks and everyone else is playing in sneakers, you are going to be at a severe disadvantage because socks have no grip on a hardwood floor. (Sorry, I play a lot of hoops lol)

Excellent! Wish I had thought of that one sooner!

[freakystyly]

I only have approx 10 yrs experience in winter on RWD cars and with winter tires throughout all of them. These newer BMWs have tons of nannies that will keep you off the curbs. You have to basically turn them off or be ignorant of basic physics to get into trouble. That being said, there will always be people wondering how they got into someone's front yard upside-down on their roof.

When I'm confident in my abilities in the current weather, and looking to actually let the wheels slip a tiny bit, the DTC button gets one push. These cars are quite isolated to road feel so it is harder to tell when things let go. The long push on the DTC button is usually just parking lot shennanigans and not road.

[albertw]

Originally Posted by TheSniper

I think what most of us fear is that feeling if you've ever driven a RWD vehicle in the winter and the rear end gets aways from you while making a turn or what not. Heck, even accelerating sometimes.

AWD and FWD vehicles don't typically have the rear end do that.

You bring up an important point that seems to be lost on the winter tire fanatics who insist that RWD with snow tires is always better in the winter than AWD with all season tires.

There are some snow conditions in which having the front wheels pulling is more important to starting off and keeping moving and to steering effectiveness than the tire type. When the fronts want to push a mound of slush or wind-packed snow and climb up on it, sometimes the rear wheels alone can't generate enough thrust to move the car, even with winter tires, and if they can steering effectiveness is reduced. In contrast, spinning the fronts can dig down through the snow to the hard surface and keep you moving and pointed in the direction you want even if they are just all seasons.

The other situation is what you describe, which is common with ruts in heavy slush. With RWD you have to slow way down to change lanes, or the slush can grab the front tires and whip the car sideways, whereas with the fronts pulling you can pull out of one set of ruts and into the adjacent set at a much higher speed.

Admittedly these conditions are not all that common, but they are frequent enough in the areas I've lived that it is simply not correct to claim that RWD with winters is always better than AWD (or FWD) with all season tires. For this reason and many others that have been addressed at length in the many winter tire threads, I maintain that all season tires on AWD or FWD can be a rational compromise for some people, just as winter tires can be the rational choice for others.

Of course, this won't make any difference at all to the winter tire fanatics. The thing I find puzzling about them is that they don't rail about the horrible safety problems created by low rolling resistance tires, which cause roughly the same change in braking distance and maximum turning g on warm, dry pavement compared to extreme performance summer tires as all seasons do compared to winter tires on ice. Where is the campaign to get every Prius off the road in the summer until they have tires with more grip installed?

[VAcurler]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

What is in the 3rd garage space?

The third spot is where the F23 lives. Had to shovel the driveway and actually put on a tire sock to get the car into the spot. Even in eco pro mode with the parking brake on 2 clicks it was hard to get up the hill into the garage.

[John in VA]

Originally Posted by VAcurler

Had to shovel the driveway and actually put on a tire sock to get the car into the spot.

I've not heard of a tire sock / Autosock. Hope it's not something we'll need here! https://autosock.us/products/
I do use a winter tire setup on my E39 daily driver.

[MarcoZandrini]

Originally Posted by F22leo

Awd and all season tires is far better than a rwd car that has dedicated winter tires imo. My xdrive 328i with eagle sport all season tires was incredible in the snow and never had the need for winter tires during two harsh ny winters. Where as my rwd m235 that has Michelin pilot sport all season 4s doesn't hold a candle to the xdrive 328 in the snow, (obviously) and putting "real" snow tires on it would probably only make VERY small difference.

I beg to differ with you. I live in the DC metro area. We're getting snow as I type this. I had Blzzaks on all four corners of my old 330Ci. I used to drive around folks in their big SUVs with all season tires when the snow/ice fell. They'd sit there spinning their all season tires while wondering why their big and expensive SUV isn't moving, and that RWD car is zipping passed them.

[BEM-S4]

To simplify the discussion, tires only do three things and only one at a time: go, turn, stop. Yes you can "turn while stopping" but only due to ABS where you are very quickly doing turn-stop-turn-stop-etc... All that is to say for restrained winter driving, aka basic safe vehicle operation, AWD is not involved in 2/3 of the tire operations.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by John in VA

I've not heard of a tire sock / Autosock. Hope it's not something we'll need here! https://autosock.us/products/
I do use a winter tire setup on my E39 daily driver.

I carry a set of Autosocks in my M235 as an emergency back up as I no longer winter tires in the winter here in Kansas City. I haven't used them on my M235, but I did use them on my RWD G35 a few times. I managed to climb a quite steep hill in 3-4 inch of powder snow with them on my G35. I don't get how the things work but they do quite well; much better grip than I ever experienced with my Alpin PA4s. You just have to make sure to remove them once you're off snow packed roads or they'll die a quick death.