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      05-19-2020, 07:20 AM   #111
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So you said it

" It's not faster or more efficient or easier, it just lets me be true to my nature."

Finding what makes you really smile is what matters I couldn't agree more. We so often get influenced by marketing and what our buddies approve off.

That's why I am still driving stick shift and changed the final drive ratio. I get to rev the engine more, even at slow commuting speeds. I drove the F80 M3 but decided against it. It was just not as much fun at slow speeds! That happens with many over-engineered cars these days who have to beat Nürburgring times. Most of the M models are like this. Too heavy and they lost the fun part. They are like overweight pigs that have been made to dance through engineering .

What about having too much power? Is having 4 servings of fries with your steak better? Perhaps if you weigh 350 pounds and haven't eaten for a day, absolutely. But if you weigh little and eat three times a day it only upsets your stomach. Leads to long term health issues too.

A few of you commented you can't have too much power. There will be always moments where that is great to have. Just don't loose the fun for the remaining 99% of time. I agree!
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      05-19-2020, 07:21 AM   #112
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And the great Shovelman takes an enigmatic bow.

(not the sharpest tool in the shed, but the hardest working)
You crack me up man thank you!
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      05-19-2020, 07:24 AM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heitzer View Post
So you said it

" It's not faster or more efficient or easier, it just lets me be true to my nature."

Finding what makes you really smile is what matters I couldn't agree more. We so often get influenced by marketing and what our buddies approve off.

That's why I am still driving stick shift and changed the final drive ratio. I get to rev the engine more, even at slow commuting speeds. I drove the F80 M3 but decided against it. It was just not as much fun at slow speeds! That happens with many over-engineered cars these days who have to beat Nürburgring times. Most of the M models are like this. Too heavy and they lost the fun part. They are like overweight pigs that have been made to dance through engineering .

What about having too much power? Is having 4 servings of fries with your steak better? Perhaps if you weigh 350 pounds and haven't eaten for a day, absolutely. But if you weigh little and eat three times a day it only upsets your stomach. Leads to long term health issues too.

A few of you commented you can't have too much power. There will be always moments where that is great to have. Just don't loose the fun for the remaining 99% of time. I agree!
Sounds like you need a.... I am not going to say it.

Perhaps this should suffice?
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      05-22-2020, 05:56 PM   #114
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Chiming in late, and I haven'y read all the posts.

But there is a point to be made here. Engineering is about systems and optimizing for usage situations and use-cases.

In an infrastructure and legal system where most driving is at 10-75 mph, and any more than that seriously increases risks to life, limb and fellow pedestrian/motorists....one can argue the 2 series and all BMW and modern cars are poorly engineered for the purpose at hands. Great cars and full of individual technical marvels. but the OP has a point.

Hence why the Miata is popular with its 130-155 HP motor, as are Kei cars in Japan with 0.6 cc engines...and their owners have as much if not more fun.

In another analogy...there's a reason why in computing, Intel computers and processors are "too fast" and ARM "systems on a chip" are taking over the world...or why individual computers themselves are "too fast" and much of modern infrastructure is run on virtual cloud CPUs...

(speaking as someone who added a miata as a second car to their 228i w/ dinan stage I/shockware...)
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      05-22-2020, 06:17 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caycep View Post
Chiming in late, and I haven'y read all the posts.

But there is a point to be made here. Engineering is about systems and optimizing for usage situations and use-cases.

In an infrastructure and legal system where most driving is at 10-75 mph, and any more than that seriously increases risks to life, limb and fellow pedestrian/motorists....one can argue the 2 series and all BMW and modern cars are poorly engineered for the purpose at hands. Great cars and full of individual technical marvels. but the OP has a point.

Hence why the Miata is popular with its 130-155 HP motor, as are Kei cars in Japan with 0.6 cc engines...and their owners have as much if not more fun.

In another analogy...there's a reason why in computing, Intel computers and processors are "too fast" and ARM "systems on a chip" are taking over the world...or why individual computers themselves are "too fast" and much of modern infrastructure is run on virtual cloud CPUs...

(speaking as someone who added a miata as a second car to their 228i w/ dinan stage I/shockware...)
Thank you for adding a meaningful contribution to the conversation.

Following your main point, I would argue that our cars are not poorly-engineered, but are instead over-engineered. That is, they simply do much more than they need to or is necessary. And please believe me, I'm the last guy to argue against that, as wretched excess has been the hallmark of my existence. Thankfully, my parents are no longer available to hear me admit this.

There are, of course, exceptions to that generalization. In my case, I wanted a street/track car. I chose to not take a Cayman/Miata/BRZ (each of which would have been much better on the track (and much less better on the street (for me))). Not being willing to go hardcore two-seater, and, being a BMW guy from way back, I chose the BMW that best fit my needs.

As Throttlesteer14 has expressed so well, the BMW is not going to hold a candle to the Cayman on the track. However, when I travel to Whitefish, MT for the summer, the BMW is the car for me. The Cayman, as spectacular as it is (and it really is), is not a car I would want to take on a 4K-mile round trip.

––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––– ––––

Possibly Interesting Side-Note: Before I retired in the early 90s, I worked for a Japanese Big-Four company. They were making exceptionally high-quality hard drives for a variety of applications. The only problem was: they were too high-quality. Imagine that, right!

The market was changing so rapidly at the time that the limited size of those HDs didn't allow the manufacturer to recover its costs. It didn't matter that they were insanely reliable; the speed and capacity of lesser drives soon passed them by.

For those who don't understand the concept, there is such a thing as making a product that is so perfect at what it does; and, more importantly, costs accordingly, that the market ends up passing it by before the development costs can be recouped. Then the out-sized profits that were projected never come to pass.

Think...Tesla. Or not. I look forward to finding out while I tool around in my lowly 2 Series!
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      05-23-2020, 12:00 AM   #116
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I'm super late to the party and others have probably said it more eloquently than me, but I think even my lowly B46-powered car is fast enough that I wouldn't dare try to drive it anywhere near the limit on a public road because it would be unsafe or risk arrest.

And I'd contrast that against my buddy's BRZ that handles well and is fun to drive, but is so damn slow in a straight line that he gets dusted at stoplights by road-raging soccer moms in V6-powered minivans.

That said, when the BMW is off the public roads in a motorsport setting, its in a weird spot where its too heavy to be a momentum car, and not fast enough to keep up with the power cars. So I guess it really depends on the context in which you're evaluating it. It straddles the line between being the slowest fast car or the fastest slow car.
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      05-23-2020, 10:15 AM   #117
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To disagree with the OP (I think) - the 'excess' power in the M235i/M240i isn't there for Yet More Power, it's just a by-product of the turbo, put there to give you diesel-like torque.

In my 330d Touring, the turbodiesel pretty much meant I only needed four gears: 1st/2nd to get going, 5th in town and 8th to cruise. The rest were redundant. And over 40mph, 8th would hack it in most circumstances.

Conventionally-aspirated petrol engines by comparison become tedious as you constantly have to shift up/down and rev high. So add-on a turbo and you get much closer to the torque you're used to in a diesel.

But a side-effect is to give the engine far more raw power than you need. This is how I see it, not as a pointless excess but something I get 'for free', and can discard or utilise as I see fit.
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      05-24-2020, 05:32 AM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tayone415 View Post
OP has a 230i (4 cylinder turbo) not a m235/240 (6 cylinder turbo)
But the observation still applies, surely? I was only quoting the 6-cyl turbodiesel because I actually owned one.

I also previously owned an Audi A3 4-Cyl turbodiesel 2.0L and would say the same thing: that the 'unnecessary' extra power in a 4-cyl petrol turbo is a by-product of giving it the torque of the equivalent diesel engine. And that you can opt to use it for outright acceleration or not, at your discretion. But what you welcome is the torque it gives, without which, you might find the non-turbo petrol engine unsatisfactory.
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      05-24-2020, 10:52 AM   #119
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Esteemed writers...

I have been wrapped up in coronavirus related "holding our business together" and "protecting our Team from getting sick" crises for the last two months and have spent little time visiting the forum. As an "Engineer" but not really an "Engineer" so I am told (Materials Science and Engineering), this has been a great thread to read. Thanks, Shovelman. Can't dig a ditch without you, man!

The best gift my Dad ever gave me was the gift of not allowing me the car I wanted (and had saved to buy) when I was 16 (Camaro Vert 1969, Big Block / 4 speed), but a FIAT 850 Sport Coupe. 903cc's of rear engine fun wrapped in ~1400# of questionable structural integrity, and in my case, significant corrosion from snowy PA roads. Although painfully slow (I did hit an indicated 100mph on a downhill on I-81 in VA with a 40 mph tail wind, once), it was peppy to drive (especially with the self modified carb and header from JC Whitney) and taught me more about vehicle dynamics than any car likely could at a tender age. without killing myself. I actually enjoy driving my E36 328is as much as the M235, just in a different way, . There is a lot to be said for less power, especially for younger drivers who are not experienced. Driving an "under-powered" or "just right" car forces you to drive the car properly to get the most out of it. Although my M235 will be in my garage for many years and makes an excellent daily driver, I must admit that it is almost too easy to drive at ridiculous speeds and with the right tires, corner and brake quite capably, beyond the abilities of many. My two cents...
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      05-24-2020, 11:20 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by Unicorn123 View Post
Esteemed writers...

I have been wrapped up in coronavirus related "holding our business together" and "protecting our Team from getting sick" crises for the last two months and have spent little time visiting the forum. As an "Engineer" but not really an "Engineer" so I am told (Materials Science and Engineering), this has been a great thread to read. Thanks, Shovelman. Can't dig a ditch without you, man!

The best gift my Dad ever gave me was the gift of not allowing me the car I wanted (and had saved to buy) when I was 16 (Camaro Vert 1969, Big Block / 4 speed), but a FIAT 850 Sport Coupe. 903cc's of rear engine fun wrapped in ~1400# of questionable structural integrity, and in my case, significant corrosion from snowy PA roads. Although painfully slow (I did hit an indicated 100mph on a downhill on I-81 in VA with a 40 mph tail wind, once), it was peppy to drive (especially with the self modified carb and header from JC Whitney) and taught me more about vehicle dynamics than any car likely could at a tender age. without killing myself. I actually enjoy driving my E36 328is as much as the M235, just in a different way, . There is a lot to be said for less power, especially for younger drivers who are not experienced. Driving an "under-powered" or "just right" car forces you to drive the car properly to get the most out of it. Although my M235 will be in my garage for many years and makes an excellent daily driver, I must admit that it is almost too easy to drive at ridiculous speeds and with the right tires, corner and brake quite capably, beyond the abilities of many. My two cents...
Should everyone buy a Miata then?
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      05-24-2020, 11:39 AM   #121
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Should everyone buy a Miata then?
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      05-24-2020, 12:15 PM   #122
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BimBimM2 View Post
Should everyone buy a Miata then?
I am joking, of course In fact I love the premise of Unicorn123 's post: "Is the car too powerful?" That's a solid question and nigh impossible to troll around (versus "is the car too fast?" Haha!)

To extend his argument, (I hope) that all of us here on this forum are at least better than average drivers; I shudder to think about distracted soccer moms tooling around piloting these extremely powerful machines. It is absolutely possible that cars may be getting too damn powerful for the general public. Surely safety features are ramping up as well, and honestly I hate the trends that with more power there is more loss of control (modern electrics are making it the default).

Perhaps life is better squeezing the most out of an underpowered engine than letting a mighty, powerful machine cart us along. At least there is more involvement and skill in the former, and by virtue of that, there is reward! (Sure, this is a chink here; y'all feel free to tell me that the criteria for skill and reward has changed).

God I fucking hate progress sometimes. Yet I make my bread and butter off it haha
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      05-24-2020, 01:09 PM   #123
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there’s a 4 page long “m2 vs Miata” thread on this website.

Spoiler: it’s basically 4 pages of M2 owners extolling the virtues of the little Mazda.

https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1685359
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      05-25-2020, 04:01 AM   #124
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My observation was meant more as a discussion point, rather than an assertion, as I'm not an engineer. So no problem if others don't see the OP's question in the same way.

Over here in Europe, it seems like the manufacturers spent a lot of the 2000s developing ever-more impressive, 4-cylinder, 1.8L/2.0L turbodiesels. With diesel cheaper than petrol, giving you around 60mpg, a big tax premium on each gallon, a purchase tax hike on engines over 2.0L, and most fuel imported, it all made sense. Even if the initial cost was higher thanks to the greater complexity of the diesel design. Like many owners, I got used to the terrific torque of these engines and used to cruising on European autoroutes at 80MPH around 1500rpm: on one of these, just after filling-up, my Audi A3 trip computer showed I had 1,000 Kms range on one tank (621 US miles).

However, the big manufacturers were quietly pumping R&D money into high-efficiency petrol engines allied to the turbo tech they'd developed. Slowly but surely, with the turbos giving the torque we'd got used to and efficiency rising, the gap was closed. So even before the bad publicity around diesel emissions and cheating on MPG numbers, the gap was effectively closed (for the domestic buyer anyway): why pay that much more for a more complex diesel when you could get close to the same efficiency from a simpler (i.e. lower-maintenance) petrol engine? And so things have swung back.

If you're looking for a run-around now, cars like the Audi A1 (https://www.audi.co.uk/new-models/a1...k/technik.html) have little 3/4-cyl turbo 1.L petrol engines that are pretty much all you need. That little 1L puts out 94 BHP and 175 Nm torque, 0-60 in 11 secs doing 38 US MPG.

But rather than downsizing to these smaller engines, a lot of us have set the 4-cyl + 2.0L as the 'benchmark' for what we buy. These are now that much more powerful, not just because of general efficiency improvements but also because of the turbo tech that's used to give us the torque we like. So the 2.0L Audi TFSI runs at 258 BHP and still does 35 US MPG.

So what am I saying? That many of us haven't really adjusted our buying to advances in technology: older guys like me still see the 4-cyl 2.0L engine as the reference point of choice: OK, a 1.8 if I can't afford much, but we wouldn't be seen dead in a 1.4L (even if it's as/more powerful than the 2.0L of 15 years ago). SO we shouldn't really be surprised if when we get our new 2020 2.0L car, it ends up leading us into all sort of trouble ....
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      05-25-2020, 07:59 AM   #125
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It always interesting to see the european point of view in all of this. Europeans see american cars as wasteful excess, while unsuprisingly Americans see our 2.0 turbodiesels and 1l petrols as being “severly underpowered” even though we cruise at 80-100mph in them, while they need a 5.0 v8 to “merge safely” to their 60mph speed limit...
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      05-25-2020, 08:31 AM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gosi View Post
It always interesting to see the european point of view in all of this. Europeans see american cars as wasteful excess, while unsuprisingly Americans see our 2.0 turbodiesels and 1l petrols as being “severly underpowered” even though we cruise at 80-100mph in them, while they need a 5.0 v8 to “merge safely” to their 60mph speed limit...
The basis for two different points of view are two different priorities:
  • Achievable top speed vs.
  • Rate of acceleration

Having driven in both locations, the primary need is experience-based. European highways/autobahn/autostrada were much more thoughfully designed than in the US with ramp length for entry. And, drivers in the US are far less willing to cooperate/work together/be courteous as other drivers negotiate entering. Some will obviously and consciously behave to interfere with another with some bizarre notion of "winning". (Don't even get started on lane discipline!) This results in the perception of needing more power to "fight back".
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      05-25-2020, 10:38 AM   #127
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Both are the same year.
Both have the same engine.
Both are "S" models.
Both have the same top speed (approx.).
One is manual, one is an automatic.
One is heavier.
One floats like a tank, one is quicker in the corners.
One is better for long road trips.
Both perform like they were designed to.
Enjoy both. Depends upon the mood I am in and where I am going.

PS One is heavily modified with factory and aftermarket parts.
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      05-25-2020, 10:46 AM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gosi View Post
It always interesting to see the european point of view in all of this. Europeans see american cars as wasteful excess, while unsuprisingly Americans see our 2.0 turbodiesels and 1l petrols as being “severly underpowered” even though we cruise at 80-100mph in them, while they need a 5.0 v8 to “merge safely” to their 60mph speed limit...
Both are somewhat stereotypes. Some of the constraints are also related to urban design, parking, mass transit, etc... It's not like big European can manufacturers aren't making excessive V8 cars (or turbo 6's, V10s, V12s). Marketing is the other big factor. It's probably not in the average American's dna to want an econobox that looks exactly the same to every other neighboor. Saloons/sedans are quite rare in much of Europe.
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      05-25-2020, 01:14 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msej449 View Post
So what am I saying? That many of us haven't really adjusted our buying to advances in technology: older guys like me still see the 4-cyl 2.0L engine as the reference point of choice: OK, a 1.8 if I can't afford much, but we wouldn't be seen dead in a 1.4L (even if it's as/more powerful than the 2.0L of 15 years ago). SO we shouldn't really be surprised if when we get our new 2020 2.0L car, it ends up leading us into all sort of trouble ....
Another thing that you briefly touched on, but that I think is important is that in addition to your average 2.0L making way more power than before, you also have to take into account that generally speaking, today’s 247 (or whatever) horsepower is going to go a lot further, so to speak than 247 horsepower from 15 years ago. Partly because modern auto transmissions are better, partly because modern turbo mills make more torque and also partly because most modern engines just have more “area under the curve” due to that torque.
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      05-25-2020, 03:00 PM   #130
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All good points! Struck a nerve here however, so it is time to vent and go off on a tangent!

Gotta go with Sportstick on the differentiation; as another who has driven extensively in the EU (on the continent, IE and the former EU Country, the UK) and in the USA, the ability to accelerate quickly and "pick your spot" is more critical in my experience in North America than in Europe.

Unfortunately, most North American drivers (present company excluded) are under-educated in the skills and disciplines of proper driving, particularly at higher speeds, and this makes a more powerful car useful as most drivers will not let you in to the traffic flow and you are forced to "pick your spot", for the lack of a better way to put it. Lane discipline...forget it. There is none. And as was pointed out, on-ramps are not designed to allow smooth transition onto a highway. Typically they are too short, hence, rapid acceleration to match the rate of speed on the main road is crucial, although not completely necessary. In Europe, motorways are designed as such and with more thoughtful planning and execution, for the most part, that I have seen. This makes merging much easier and in my experience, most European drivers are more courteous and will allow you to merge, rather than stubbornly refuse to "give an inch" when attempting to merge onto a highway. The end result of failing to look further than the end of one's hood/bonnet while driving at 75MPH!

Probably beating the dead horse here but I could not resist...I will stop whingeing for now...
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      05-25-2020, 03:57 PM   #131
gosi
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I think those are all good points and interesting to hear for me as I’ve never driven in the USA.
In Europe a lot of attention is given to proper road manners, correct following distance and proper use of the left lane only for overtaking. That’s one thing we have to make up for high taxes and expensive fuel.
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      05-25-2020, 04:38 PM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gosi View Post
I think those are all good points and interesting to hear for me as I’ve never driven in the USA.
In Europe a lot of attention is given to proper road manners, correct following distance and proper use of the left lane only for overtaking. That’s one thing we have to make up for high taxes and expensive fuel.
I’ve observed, been impressed, and appreciative of what you describe in Europe. This is one area where we didn’t need to rebel against our European cousins.
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