[Throttlesteer14]

I'm sure you've all read the threads concerning the N55 compared to the B58. Most of which warn of the unknown with the B58 and the horror stories of coolant issues, VANOS location, and valve cover gaskets. But, the M240i now has 4 years under its belt. If you had to compare it to the reliability and durability of the N55, is it a step forward or a step backwards? Should anyone be concerned about buying a B58 equipped M240i (or other) at this point?

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by Throttlesteer14

Should anyone be concerned about buying a B58 equipped M240i (or other) at this point?

In my mind, it's a BMW. Hello!!!

And so, in the inimitable words of lixiang7349 (once again (and slightly modified)), we choose to pay to play. That is, we buy what we want from this manufacturer, and we accept that subsequent costs may be a surprise to us. Or not. Frankly, I'm not surprised by any expense from these cars anymore, and that realization dates back to the early 1980s. Feel free to PM me for entertaining specifics.

I've been doing this for over forty years now and will likely continue to do so until automobiles are no longer relevant to me and mine. That is...buy BMWs.

[AleksanderSuave]

At this point I believe it’s as good as it gets.

If I got to choose, I’d rather a b58tu1 but this is still a lot better than n55...and the only issues I’ve had were from dinan hardware.

[lixiang7349]

Originally Posted by dradernh

In my mind, it's a BMW. Hello!!!

And so, in the inimitable words of lixiang7349 (once again (and slightly modified)), we choose to pay to play. That is, we buy what we want from this manufacturer, and we accept that subsequent costs may be a surprise to us. Or not. Frankly, I'm not surprised by any expense from these cars anymore, and that realization dates back to the early 1980s. Feel free to PM me for entertaining specifics.

I've been doing this for over forty years now and will likely continue to do so until automobiles are no longer relevant to me and mine. That is...buy BMWs.

Personally, I'm by no means limited to bimmers especially when they choose make their vehicles uglier and uglier with each "new" generation. Won't go back to Audi for the same reason. May go back and try another AMG. My next car will most likely be a corvette. I'll get a Porsche if they make their cayman much more powerful or make their 911 mid-engine. Corvette also needs work on the front view and that stupid steering wheel and the passenger seat but it's the one with least stupidity of the bunch. At the current rate of where auto industry is going I'll run out of cars to buy very soon.

[BimBimM2]

Originally Posted by Throttlesteer14

I'm sure you've all read the threads concerning the N55 compared to the B58. Most of which warn of the unknown with the B58 and the horror stories of coolant issues, VANOS location, and valve cover gaskets. But, the M240i now has 4 years under its belt. If you had to compare it to the reliability and durability of the N55, is it a step forward or a step backwards? Should anyone be concerned about buying a B58 equipped M240i (or other) at this point?

Hey OP have you noticed how little B58 folks actually do complain even post-tuning/modifications? There are literally a handful of scoring/blown/seized B58 engine stories here and more than half are traced to user boneheadedness like gimping on cash while modifying (everyday there is a new VSRF DP thread about CELs), stupidly gapped spark plugs blah blah

the relative ease of tuning a B58 compared to an N55 introduces far less elements to break. For instance, for tuning an N55 wasn't it a must to upgrade FMIC and charge pipes, along with a DP, before any Stage 2 upgrades? In the B58 your minimum req for Stage 2 is a DP.

Anyway, point is: most reliability stories are down to user boneheadedness with the B58. Please correct me if I am wrong. The "disappearing coolant" had a thread going on and there were talks of engines being replaced but I haven't seen that issue come up in cars of MY 2018 and above.

[AleksanderSuave]

Originally Posted by BimBimM2

Hey OP have you noticed how little B58 folks actually do complain even post-tuning/modifications? There are literally a handful of scoring/blown/seized B58 engine stories here and more than half are traced to user boneheadedness like gimping on cash while modifying (everyday there is a new VSRF DP thread about CELs), stupidly gapped spark plugs blah blah

the relative ease of tuning a B58 compared to an N55 introduces far less elements to break. For instance, for tuning an N55 wasn't it a must to upgrade FMIC and charge pipes, along with a DP, before any Stage 2 upgrades? In the B58 your minimum req for Stage 2 is a DP.

Anyway, point is: most reliability stories are down to user boneheadedness with the B58. Please correct me if I am wrong. The "disappearing coolant" had a thread going on and there were talks of engines being replaced but I haven't seen that issue come up in cars of MY 2018 and above.

You could also, on many occasions, have the stock charge pipe blow on an N55 without any tuning at all. This happened so often it became a joke to order a charge pipe in advance and keep it in your trunk for a rainy day.

I was one of those people who this happened to. No tunes, all dealer maintained, full cpo package and charge pipe blew before 70k.

[BimBimM2]

Originally Posted by AleksanderSuave

You could also, on many occasions, have the stock charge pipe blow on an N55 without any tuning at all. This happened so often it became a joke to order a charge pipe in advance and keep it in your trunk for a rainy day.

I was one of those people who this happened to. No tunes, all dealer maintained, full cpo package and charge pipe blew before 70k.

Oh wow! I had no idea haha

I know that if I keep the B58 stock, I am not going to have any drivetrain issues at all for tens of thousands of miles. Get the oil changed; keep it to spec and let the good times roll.

Some other posters mentioned this, but Toyota would not have picked the B58, and even the B58TU now so quickly, if they were loose about letting their credibility as a reliable auto manufacturer. Given that it is the heart of Toyota's consumer halo car is a HUGE testament to B58's reliable nature. Sure there have been some changes on the '20 Supra specific B58 but nothing drastic.

Honestly I think the X58 line of engines will establish BMW's drivetrain credibility in the coming years. The S58 engines have been out for a solid year at this point and they are relatively problem free.

Back to the point of the OG B58 in our cars... I think as the 2017s start coming off carefully driven leases and star getting into the hands of penny pinching "enthusiasts" you will start hearing some crazy horror stories. Keep in mind that BMWs, due to their price point and rapid depreciation, attract shitloads of shitty users. You already see that shitstorm with the shit modified F30s. Check out their forums "guyz I just put some JB4 shit with some shit ricer tune on my shitty bimmer LOL"

Edit: I must point out. I fucking hate piggyback tuners and their easy accessibility over the years have done massive damage to German cars. Yet the B58s have held their own.

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by lixiang7349

I'll get a Porsche if they make their cayman much more powerful or make their 911 mid-engine.

GT4 RS – with upgrades if ~500 HP @ ~3150# isn't enough?

[Throttlesteer14]

Originally Posted by BimBimM2

Edit: I must point out. I fucking hate piggyback tuners and their easy accessibility over the years have done massive damage to German cars. Yet the B58s have held their own.

Are you stating piggybacks damage cars and flash tunes don't? Just curious, since I have a Dinan piggyback but a flash tune for my Cayman. I think a lot depends on the aggressiveness of the tune and driving style. If you're running around town street racing and using LC at every stoplight, I wouldn't be surprised to see things fail.

I've had no problems with my tuned Cayman, even though it's NA and not playing with boost. I don't anticipate the M240i to have issues either, since the Dinan piggyback is pretty tame.

[lixiang7349]

Originally Posted by dradernh

GT4 RS – with upgrades if ~500 HP @ ~3150# isn't enough?

I'll see what kinda torque they come up with. Gt4 only has 309? Rs won't be too much more is my guess.
For 130k if tq land 350ish then its hard to justify taking it over the 6.2L c8.
What car do you have your eyes on next?

[AleksanderSuave]

Originally Posted by Throttlesteer14

Are you stating piggybacks damage cars and flash tunes don't? Just curious, since I have a Dinan piggyback but a flash tune for my Cayman. I think a lot depends on the aggressiveness of the tune and driving style. If you're running around town street racing and using LC at every stoplight, I wouldn't be surprised to see things fail.

I've had no problems with my tuned Cayman, even though it's NA and not playing with boost. I don't anticipate the M240i to have issues either, since the Dinan piggyback is pretty tame.

There’s a user in here who mentioned that his dinan piggyback trashed the engine and it had to be replaced at 47k


I asked for more info (service RO, details, etc) and never heard much in that regard.

[Throttlesteer14]

Originally Posted by AleksanderSuave

There’s a user in here who mentioned that his dinan piggyback trashed the engine and it had to be replaced at 47k


I asked for more info (service RO, details, etc) and never heard much in that regard.

I saw that too. Wondering if it was the V1 first off. I also read a lot of stories where its clear a number of details are left out. Its always easy to blame the parts, but you never hear about the nut behind the wheel.

[AleksanderSuave]

Yeah that’s why I wanted more details. Hard yo believe a Dinan tune did that.. they’re as conservative as it gets

[BimBimM2]

Originally Posted by Throttlesteer14

Are you stating piggybacks damage cars and flash tunes don't? Just curious, since I have a Dinan piggyback but a flash tune for my Cayman. I think a lot depends on the aggressiveness of the tune and driving style. If you're running around town street racing and using LC at every stoplight, I wouldn't be surprised to see things fail.

I've had no problems with my tuned Cayman, even though it's NA and not playing with boost. I don't anticipate the M240i to have issues either, since the Dinan piggyback is pretty tame.

Hey Throttle, I honestly am running off dumb intuition and an irrational hatred for the concept of how piggyback works.

I had a conversation with Ron T of Noelle Performance at one point. I asked him what made his flash tune so much better than Dinan's piggyback offerings and he said that what Dinan and other piggybacks offer is "an incomplete solution, only for "go fast" purposes". This struck a chord with me. Ron's own flash tune, by contrast rewrites a bunch of things around fuel management, TCU, not just boost management; rewrites a bunch of transmission protocols etc etc. it is a relatively "complete" solution compared to a piggyback.

As a novice, in my head, it makes no sense to "save a few bucks" and go for a somewhat incomplete solution whose entire purpose is to trick the DME into thinking X is happening while Y is the case. I don't know, please don't take my word on this as this is just an irrational response, and you know better BUT I just hate the idea that, when using a piggyback, the entire burden of the *new* ignition timings and fuel management falls onto the DME and... that's it.

I mean, it all is a very dynamic system. I'd rather account for as many factors as I can, when going out of spec, than to just pump more boost and hope that the DME will take care of the rest, as is the case with piggybacks. I would rather get the car custom tuned from the ground up.

When I read Fasteddy1 post about how the Dinan piggyback led to oil starvation, it made perfect sense to me. This is the same post AleksanderSuave mentioned to you as well above.

EDIT: though I mention Ron T above, and despite his and his ex boss's experience with Alpina, I don't exactly see the point of buying his $1800 OTS tune just to keep the warranty. Just wanted to clarify that I didn't go with his product.

[AleksanderSuave]

Originally Posted by BimBimM2

Oh wow! I had no idea haha

I know that if I keep the B58 stock, I am not going to have any drivetrain issues at all for tens of thousands of miles. Get the oil changed; keep it to spec and let the good times roll.

Some other posters mentioned this, but Toyota would not have picked the B58, and even the B58TU now so quickly, if they were loose about letting their credibility as a reliable auto manufacturer. Given that it is the heart of Toyota's consumer halo car is a HUGE testament to B58's reliable nature. Sure there have been some changes on the '20 Supra specific B58 but nothing drastic.

Honestly I think the X58 line of engines will establish BMW's drivetrain credibility in the coming years. The S58 engines have been out for a solid year at this point and they are relatively problem free.

Back to the point of the OG B58 in our cars... I think as the 2017s start coming off carefully driven leases and star getting into the hands of penny pinching "enthusiasts" you will start hearing some crazy horror stories. Keep in mind that BMWs, due to their price point and rapid depreciation, attract shitloads of shitty users. You already see that shitstorm with the shit modified F30s. Check out their forums "guyz I just put some JB4 shit with some shit ricer tune on my shitty bimmer LOL"

Edit: I must point out. I fucking hate piggyback tuners and their easy accessibility over the years have done massive damage to German cars. Yet the B58s have held their own.

I agree with all of the above...especially the point about Toyota's stamp of approval.

Unfortunately its true, used BMWs have become the Honda Civics of current generation ricing.

[BimBimM2]

Originally Posted by AleksanderSuave

I agree with all of the above...especially the point about Toyota's stamp of approval.

Unfortunately its true, used BMWs have become the Honda Civics of current generation ricing.

Yup, definitely not looking down on BMWs; they maximize smiles per miles at an excellent price point.

By the way, I know we can't mention forums like the-one-with-the-spool-and-street in the name or the one-with-bimmer-and-boost in the name, but I found those communities to be quite knowledgeable as well. In fact if you hang around the one-with-bimmer-and-fest-in-the-name, you will find a lot less talk about "tuning" and a lot more talk about stock problems. OG B58, with the exception of cylinder scoring issues on 2 and 5 hardly gets a mention with stuff breaking down.

Speaking of which, has anyone had any unfortunate experience with this scoring issues on OG B58?

[AleksanderSuave]

Originally Posted by BimBimM2

Yup, definitely not looking down on BMWs; they maximize smiles per miles at an excellent price point.

By the way, I know we can't mention forums like the-one-with-the-spool-and-street in the name or the one-with-bimmer-and-boost in the name, but I found those communities to be quite knowledgeable as well. In fact if you hang around the one-with-bimmer-and-fest-in-the-name, you will find a lot less talk about "tuning" and a lot more talk about stock problems. OG B58, with the exception of cylinder scoring issues on 2 and 5 hardly gets a mention with stuff breaking down.

Speaking of which, has anyone had any unfortunate experience with this scoring issues on OG B58?

I imagine that cylinder scoring is gonna be more commonly mentioned on other forums..just because the 2 series is a much lower volume vehicle. I bet most wont notice it unless their car goes in for a major issue and that gets inspected.

Im pretty sure Im part of the other forum you mentioned as well. Gonna have to see what they think about HPFPs as well.

[Throttlesteer14]

Originally Posted by BimBimM2

Hey Throttle, I honestly am running off dumb intuition and an irrational hatred for the concept of how piggyback works.

I had a conversation with Ron T of Noelle Performance at one point. I asked him what made his flash tune so much better than Dinan's piggyback offerings and he said that what Dinan and other piggybacks offer is "an incomplete solution, only for "go fast" purposes". This struck a chord with me. Ron's own flash tune, by contrast rewrites a bunch of things around fuel management, TCU, not just boost management; rewrites a bunch of transmission protocols etc etc. it is a relatively "complete" solution compared to a piggyback.

As a novice, in my head, it makes no sense to "save a few bucks" and go for a somewhat incomplete solution whose entire purpose is to trick the DME into thinking X is happening while Y is the case. I don't know, please don't take my word on this as this is just an irrational response, and you know better BUT I just hate the idea that, when using a piggyback, the entire burden of the *new* ignition timings and fuel management falls onto the DME and... that's it.

I mean, it all is a very dynamic system. I'd rather account for as many factors as I can, when going out of spec, than to just pump more boost and hope that the DME will take care of the rest, as is the case with piggybacks. I would rather get the car custom tuned from the ground up.

When I read Fasteddy1 post about how the Dinan piggyback led to oil starvation, it made perfect sense to me. This is the same post AleksanderSuave mentioned to you as well above.

EDIT: though I mention Ron T above, and despite his and his ex boss's experience with Alpina, I don't exactly see the point of buying his $1800 OTS tune just to keep the warranty. Just wanted to clarify that I didn't go with his product.

My only challenge to his statement is he's got an obvious dog in the fight and his selling/talking points down. I would love to know what correction to oil pressure his tune actually initiates if any (oil pressure increases with RPM).
As I stated earlier, oil starvation and pump cavitation from hard cornering is more likely due to the overall design of our cars' system.

One of the drawbacks to these cars is the lack of information readily available on the dash. I haven't considered an aftermarket solution, but I know they're out there. However, I would expect to hear about a lot more cases if this were a real issue. Outside of the reliability of the v1 Dinan units, most piggybacks (v2, JB4, etc..) have been fairly trouble-free. Car forums have a way of taking the one bad story (true or not) and making it legendary for years to come. Keep in mind, a smart person would never fess up to doing something stupid on a car forum, since it could be used to void their warranty. It will always be the part's fault.

[BimBimM2]

Originally Posted by Throttlesteer14

My only challenge to his statement is he's got an obvious dog in the fight and his selling/talking points down. I would love to know what correction to oil pressure his tune actually initiates if any (oil pressure increases with RPM).
As I stated earlier, oil starvation and pump cavitation from hard cornering is more likely due to the overall design of our cars' system.

One of the drawbacks to these cars is the lack of information readily available on the dash. I haven't considered an aftermarket solution, but I know they're out there. However, I would expect to hear about a lot more cases if this were a real issue. Outside of the reliability of the v1 Dinan units, most piggybacks (v2, JB4, etc..) have been fairly trouble-free. Car forums have a way of taking the one bad story (true or not) and making it legendary for years to come. Keep in mind, a smart person would never fess up to doing something stupid on a car forum, since it could be used to void their warranty. It will always be the part's fault.

Oh excellent point! Yes, Ron definitely has skin in the game here, so one can't take his pitches as the whole objective truth.

But since we were talking about reliability generally the point I was making was that the shortcuts, as accessible and dependable as they may be, do not account for everything. There is always a cost for cut corners, even if it isn't apparent in the first 50-60k miles. In fact sometimes these costs can be so minuscule that in the grand scheme of smiles-per-miles they matter not.

By the way, since you mentioned information availability, there is a pretty awesome thread going on in the F30 forum on exactly this sort of a thing; they kept on mentioning a "P3 unit" as a golden standard. Let me see if I can find it.

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by BimBimM2

By the way, since you mentioned information availability, there is a pretty awesome thread going on in the F30 forum on exactly this sort of a thing; they kept on mentioning a "P3 unit" as a golden standard. Let me see if I can find it.

http://www.p3cars.com/bmw/p3-v3-obd2...uge-2011-2019/

[Musashi]

Originally Posted by BimBimM2

Oh wow! I had no idea haha

I know that if I keep the B58 stock, I am not going to have any drivetrain issues at all for tens of thousands of miles. Get the oil changed; keep it to spec and let the good times roll.

Some other posters mentioned this, but Toyota would not have picked the B58, and even the B58TU now so quickly, if they were loose about letting their credibility as a reliable auto manufacturer. Given that it is the heart of Toyota's consumer halo car is a HUGE testament to B58's reliable nature. Sure there have been some changes on the '20 Supra specific B58 but nothing drastic.

Honestly I think the X58 line of engines will establish BMW's drivetrain credibility in the coming years. The S58 engines have been out for a solid year at this point and they are relatively problem free.

Back to the point of the OG B58 in our cars... I think as the 2017s start coming off carefully driven leases and star getting into the hands of penny pinching "enthusiasts" you will start hearing some crazy horror stories. Keep in mind that BMWs, due to their price point and rapid depreciation, attract shitloads of shitty users. You already see that shitstorm with the shit modified F30s. Check out their forums "guyz I just put some JB4 shit with some shit ricer tune on my shitty bimmer LOL"

Edit: I must point out. I fucking hate piggyback tuners and their easy accessibility over the years have done massive damage to German cars. Yet the B58s have held their own.

Indeed, Toyota picked the B58 for a reason. It also had it modified for a reason. Given the low sale numbers, Toyotas B58TU1 is actually a different engine than the original B58. Just one word: forged. Says it all. For the rest, youtube videos explain the difference between Toyota B58, B58TU1 and original B58. original B58 had so many design flaws - for its thermodynamic and power output characteristics- than BMW made 30+ changes with TU1. As far as I am concerned, TU1 is a different engine, the engine B58 OUGHT to have been. Reinforced sidewalls, forged forged forged. Need I say forged parts? Under load, forged to cast is what Walmart plastic knife is a to stainless henckels..

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by Musashi

Indeed, Toyota picked the B58 for a reason. It also had it modified for a reason. Given the low sale numbers, Toyotas B58TU1 is actually a different engine than the original B58. Just one word: forged. Says it all. For the rest, youtube videos explain the difference between Toyota B58, B58TU1 and original B58. original B58 had so many design flaws - for its thermodynamic and power output characteristics- than BMW made 30+ changes with TU1. As far as I am concerned, TU1 is a different engine, the engine B58 OUGHT to have been. Reinforced sidewalls, forged forged forged. Need I say forged parts? Under load, forged to cast is what Walmart plastic knife is a to stainless henckels..

The changes BMW made from TU0 to TU1 are only typical evolution changes and those needed for higher output that came with the evolution. The crank was always forged and the cylinder wall thickness is thinner with the TU1 vs TU0. Overall the M0 version is still in use in it's original form in many models, the TU1 changes to deal with higher output is used in models with the O1 version. Nothing BMW did specifically for Toyota, as it was in use in it's own models since 2018, before Toyota launched the Supra.