[Anthony235]

Originally Posted by M3 Esq

LOL totally agree there are a lot of internet racers on the car forums. On some of the "other" forums I've seen a lot of people get chided for leaving MDM or DCT or DSC or PCM or whatever it's called in their respective car. It's a personal choice IMO and there is nothing wrong with leaving it on if you're not comfortable taking it off.

On my second track day ever my instructor told me "turn all that shit off" because you won't learning anything with it on. Seems odd for an instructor to say something like that to a novice student. And this was BMW CCA, not some fly by night outfit. If I want to practice car control I'll do it on the auto x course or the kart track.

On the other hand, I was instructing at a street survival event for teens and they had a tractor trailer there. The idea was to have the kids sit inside and see what the truck driver can and can't see from inside the cabin. Totally changed the way I drive around trucks on the highway. But I digress. Anyway, the driver said he turns off all the nannies because "electronics can fail and I won't". Also an interesting perspective. So again to each his own.

It happens on all car forums. Then you ask them what their laptimes are and you realize they are no where near the limits of engaging stability control if they were to leave it on. If they are engaging it with slow laptimes then it's probably because they are making mistakes.

[Pparana]

Originally Posted by pikcachu

DSC OFF is a mode on itself....
there is not such thing as Sport & DSC OFF

you have ECO - COMFORT - SPORT - SPORT+ - DTC ON - DSC OFF
being SPORT+ the combination of SPORT and DTC ON

This is the info I am going on:

[wjones14]

Originally Posted by M3 Esq

On my second track day ever my instructor told me "turn all that shit off" because you won't learning anything with it on. Seems odd for an instructor to say something like that to a novice student. And this was BMW CCA, not some fly by night outfit. If I want to practice car control I'll do it on the auto x course or the kart track.

And I had two different HPDE instructors who told me to leave the aids on! Bill Prout and Kim Baker. Prout was an ex-Indycar team mate of Bobby Rahal, and also the chief instructor for Skip Barber racing school. Baker was an ex-NASCAR driver who won at Watkins Glen with the old Busch series in the late '90s.

Here we have 2 professional racers (maybe 3 if the BMW guy is a pro), and a split decision on whether to leave driving aids on or off. Who to believe?

[M3 Esq]

Originally Posted by wjones14

And I had two different HPDE instructors who told me to leave the aids on! Bill Prout and Kim Baker. Prout was an ex-Indycar team mate of Bobby Rahal, and also the chief instructor for Skip Barber racing school. Baker was an ex-NASCAR driver who won at Watkins Glen with the old Busch series in the late '90s.

Here we have 2 professional racers (maybe 3 if the BMW guy is a pro), and a split decision on whether to leave driving aids on or off. Who to believe?

Was it because they felt it would benefit you OR because they didn't want to be in the car with the electronics turned off?

The BMW guy is not a pro. He's an old school E30 guy. I guess you could put "turn all that shit off" on the list of shit E30 guys say.

[pikcachu]

Originally Posted by Pparana

This is the info I am going on:

That's pretty much what I'm saying....

If you look at the DTC notes on each mode it basically says that pressing DTC would kick you out of whatever mode you are and throw you in to Comfort and turn DTC ON

[rich8566]

In my view, the decision to leave the electronics on or to turn them off is a matter of experience and your level of comfort. When I was a novice track student I never turned the electronics off. As I moved up to an intermediate student, I turned the electronics partially off. As an advanced student I usually run with the electronics completely off. The only exception to this is if I am at a new track. Then I'll take my time to learn the new track.

I recall a fellow advanced student asking me what I had done to modify my car since I was pulling hard away from him out of every turn at the Glen. He said that I was just walking away from him and he could not keep pace with me. It turns out that we both had stock setups - the only difference was that I turned off the electronics and he left his on. I find that in newer cars the effect of the electronics can be very subtle, but they do slow you down on the track nonetheless.

My final comment on this subject - you should not turn the electronics off if you are not totally comfortable doing that. Never risk your car on a track at a high performance driving event. It just ain't worth it.

[wjones14]

Originally Posted by M3 Esq

Was it because they felt it would benefit you OR because they didn't want to be in the car with the electronics turned off?

The BMW guy is not a pro. He's an old school E30 guy. I guess you could put "turn all that shit off" on the list of shit E30 guys say.

Prout was not in the car with me, but was the classroom instructor. That was his general advice for the Novice and Intermediate groups. Like Rich8566 says, drivers will generally know when they're ready to run without the driving aids. If you're not sure, leave them on.

Baker was in the car with me when I was driving the Mustang. I think his advice came from several areas: 1) It was only my fourth track day - second time at Watkins Glen; 2) The Mustang was on all-season tires; 3) I told him I was just looking to be a better driver and not win any trophies.

Prout's other advice was about modifying the car. People ask him all the time, "What should I buy to improve my lap times? R-Comp tires? Upgraded brakes? Suspension mods? Engine mods?" His answer is the best way to improve your lap times is more seat time.

[Anthony235]

If you don't feel comfortable (or have the experience) doing this then leave DSC on. You can see the cone at the apex had been moved out when a car hit it. Probably only about 1ft. Which was enough to completely change how to setup the turn. When you're on the edge the margins get very small.

[Anthony235]

Also if you ever get an opportunity to do a track day in the rain I highly recommend it. It will magnify any mistakes you make. Great learning opportunity.

[casper83]

I turn everything off. I have noticed an increase in brake temperature with the nanny's on. I attribute this to how the system works by applying the brakes to "help" you around the corner.

I completely agree with Anthony235 on the rain comment.

[DVC]

Originally Posted by Pparana

This is the info I am going on:

Ha! I was about to go dig this up, but you beat me to it...I put this Excel SS together a couple years ago when I was trying to figure out all the modes and combinations.

Lots of interesting views in this thread about the merits to leaving DSC on, or disabling it. I am certainly happy to drive without stability control (or ABS, for that matter) when I get behind the wheel of my friend's spec e30 in an AER race. But in my own car, I leave Sport+ engaged for the following reasons:

1) I like the piece of mind of a safety net in the car I rely on to drive to work every day.

2) I find that with smooth technique (and a mechanical LSD), the system rarely engages...Sport+ allows a good bit of slip angle leeway, and when it does engage with intervention, it typically seems to be subtle. You can still learn from the situation and resolve to fix your mistake on the next pass, but if you're in real trouble and run out of skill, it may be enough to help save you.

3) I think there's very little to be gained in DSC off mode. When I was doing some wet/oily skid pad work years ago, I tried running figure 8s in Sport+ and DSC off - both modes were wonky, but I think DSC off was the worse of the two. The ABS was going crazy... I'm not really a fan of e-LSD. (Granted, this was before I installed a mechanical LSD, so maybe DSC off mode would be less objectionable now?) I am not really convinced that there's much to be gained in terms of lap times between the limits of Sport+ and the limits of DSC off.

Originally Posted by rich8566

...I recall a fellow advanced student asking me what I had done to modify my car since I was pulling hard away from him out of every turn at the Glen. He said that I was just walking away from him and he could not keep pace with me. It turns out that we both had stock setups - the only difference was that I turned off the electronics and he left his on. I find that in newer cars the effect of the electronics can be very subtle, but they do slow you down on the track nonetheless...

I think you're just faster than him. Unless his Sport+ light was going crazy, he was not being held back by Stability/Traction Control. There's no imperceptible throttling back that can't be detected or observed with the dash light - it either intervenes or it doesn't. If he was doing his part as well as you were, Sport+ wouldn't be holding him back.

[SteveInfante]

So I think I may be one of the only folks in here that track a non M Sport 228i. I recently went to the nearest track to where I live, Carolina Motorsports Park, and had this experience.

I initially ran in Sport (I don't have a Sport+) because I thought maybe I should take it easy and just learn the track. Worked well, I learned where the problem sections of the track were and how the nannies were correcting for me.

2nd session ran in DSC active. Got a little faster and smoother. Made driving error corrections manually.

3rd session I FELT COMFORTABLE and went DSC off. Got a little faster and had more fun throttle steering out of turns.

Broke the new set of BFG Sport Comp 2 A/S tires in and got great feedback as to where the traction limits are. Valuable info for my daily commutes. I drive right past the track 21 days a month going to work.

[tux2005]

I've taken my 228i Sportline (non-M-Sport) to the track twice now, once for one day and most recently for a weekend. Both my days were at Mosport. I've kept the nannies on when out on the track, over the weekend event when I was on the skidpad we turned off the nannies and it was pretty incredible to see the difference.

The skidpad is definitely the place to find out what the nannies are doing and what the limits really are. If you're lucky to get some rain or have sand or anything slippery on the skidpad it's really useful too.

We did also have quite a bit of rain on the Saturday so I did a couple sessions with both wet and damp tracks. That was a really good learning experience, it's incredible the difference between a wet and dry track.

I'll be sticking to driving in Sport when on the track for the foreseeable future, firstly my BMWCC chapter want it for their insurance but also I think there is still plenty for me to learn before disabling the safety nets will make me a better driver.

PS. My Sportline, non-M-Sport 228i does have a Sport+ mode, mine was built May 2014. I think the difference that I do have over many other 2ers is the lack of e-dampers so Sport & Sport+ only affects throttle sensitivity and steering weight [Edit: as DVC points out below, Sport+ also adjusts DSC & DTC, that is the difference between Sport & Sport+]. I don't think my car came with ActiveSound which is often also boosted in Sport modes IIRC.

[DVC]

Originally Posted by tux2005

...PS. My Sportline, non-M-Sport 228i does have a Sport+ mode, mine was built May 2014. I think the difference that I do have over many other 2ers is the lack of e-dampers so Sport & Sport+ only affects throttle sensitivity and steering weight. I don't think my car came with ActiveSound which is often also boosted in Sport modes IIRC.

The other difference is that Sport+ throttles back the DSC parameters significantly, allowing some wheel spin before deciding to intervene and pull engine power, and allowing some slip angle (more lenient than Sport, factoring in speed, yaw, etc.) before stepping in with corner braking.
Also, if you have the 8AT, the kick down switch (which automatically downshifts if you floor the throttle) is disabled... which is a BIG plus in my book. I absolutely hate when I smoothly roll onto the throttle through a turn, only to accidentally kick down a gear as I'm straightening the wheel and go into "gonzo wtf just happened" mode.

[rich8566]

Originally Posted by DVC

Ha! I was about to go dig this up, but you beat me to it...I put this Excel SS together a couple years ago when I was trying to figure out all the modes and combinations.

Lots of interesting views in this thread about the merits to leaving DSC on, or disabling it. I am certainly happy to drive without stability control (or ABS, for that matter) when I get behind the wheel of my friend's spec e30 in an AER race. But in my own car, I leave Sport+ engaged for the following reasons:

1) I like the piece of mind of a safety net in the car I rely on to drive to work every day.

2) I find that with smooth technique (and a mechanical LSD), the system rarely engages...Sport+ allows a good bit of slip angle leeway, and when it does engage with intervention, it typically seems to be subtle. You can still learn from the situation and resolve to fix your mistake on the next pass, but if you're in real trouble and run out of skill, it may be enough to help save you.

3) I think there's very little to be gained in DSC off mode. When I was doing some wet/oily skid pad work years ago, I tried running figure 8s in Sport+ and DSC off - both modes were wonky, but I think DSC off was the worse of the two. The ABS was going crazy... I'm not really a fan of e-LSD. (Granted, this was before I installed a mechanical LSD, so maybe DSC off mode would be less objectionable now?) I am not really convinced that there's much to be gained in terms of lap times between the limits of Sport+ and the limits of DSC off.

I think you're just faster than him. Unless his Sport+ light was going crazy, he was not being held back by Stability/Traction Control. There's no imperceptible throttling back that can't be detected or observed with the dash light - it either intervenes or it doesn't. If he was doing his part as well as you were, Sport+ wouldn't be holding him back.

My recollection is that the mechanical LSD does not engage unless DSC is off.

[DVC]

Originally Posted by rich8566

My recollection is that the mechanical LSD does not engage unless DSC is off.

A mechanical LSD has nothing to do with DSC; its function is not connected to any electronics in the car. (Not counting the fancy LSDs on F8x M cars).

I think you're thinking of the eLSD, which merely uses ABS to retard spinning of an individual rear wheel when it's lost traction.

[pikcachu]

Originally Posted by DVC

A mechanical LSD has nothing to do with DSC; its function is not connected to any electronics in the car. (Not counting the fancy LSDs on F8x M cars).

I think you're thinking of the eLSD, which merely uses ABS to retard spinning of an individual rear wheel when it's lost traction.

Yeah and you can verify this by the fact there is no wiring going into the LSD so there is no way for it to know if DSC is on/off... the mechanical LSD is always "on"

[SteveInfante]

Originally Posted by tux2005

I've taken my 228i Sportline (non-M-Sport) to the track twice now, once for one day and most recently for a weekend. Both my days were at Mosport. I've kept the nannies on when out on the track, over the weekend event when I was on the skidpad we turned off the nannies and it was pretty incredible to see the difference.

The skidpad is definitely the place to find out what the nannies are doing and what the limits really are. If you're lucky to get some rain or have sand or anything slippery on the skidpad it's really useful too.

We did also have quite a bit of rain on the Saturday so I did a couple sessions with both wet and damp tracks. That was a really good learning experience, it's incredible the difference between a wet and dry track.

I'll be sticking to driving in Sport when on the track for the foreseeable future, firstly my BMWCC chapter want it for their insurance but also I think there is still plenty for me to learn before disabling the safety nets will make me a better driver.

PS. My Sportline, non-M-Sport 228i does have a Sport+ mode, mine was built May 2014. I think the difference that I do have over many other 2ers is the lack of e-dampers so Sport & Sport+ only affects throttle sensitivity and steering weight [Edit: as DVC points out below, Sport+ also adjusts DSC & DTC, that is the difference between Sport & Sport+]. I don't think my car came with ActiveSound which is often also boosted in Sport modes IIRC.

You have the Sportline. I have the base with Premium, lights, cold weather and 6MT hence no Sport+.

[tux2005]

Ah, that would explain the difference.

[opfreak]

any way in the m235 to activate sport+, but keep regular throttle mapping? (no over sensitive gas pedal)

[pikcachu]

Originally Posted by opfreak

any way in the m235 to activate sport+, but keep regular throttle mapping? (no over sensitive gas pedal)

no, only DSC OFF will have regular throttle with sport steering