[selmeralto]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

... it's still a crapshoot precisely because only BMW knows how its electronics operates.

Amen. That's one of the main reasons I went with a speaker swap instead of electronics in upgrading the audio.

[fancyfl1ght]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

It's not bad code. Far from it. It's probably purposeful on BMW's part to protect its software, ECU, CAN-BUS, and any other proprietary electronic systems it has in place. There is heavy resistance among almost all car manufacturers to keep each car's "OS" from being overridden for a variety of reasons -- primary among them being warranty claims relating to engine modifications. This is why chiptuning or ECU reflashing is going the way of the dodo in favor of a more simple 'piggyback' style overrides -- the latter doesn't alter CAN-BUS; it merely feeds it data that overrides certain ECU functions. This is also why companies like Dinan can't crack BMW's active suspension software in certain models.

Under warranty, BMW is on the hook to fix anything that an aftermarket alteration doesn't directly affect. With as complicated as iDrive and the audio system is, who but BMW can safely, and with 100 percent authority, say that an aftermarket amp with a different electronic 'signature' wouldn't affect the function of something also operated by iDrive?

Despite those articles, it's still a crapshoot precisely because only BMW knows how its electronics operates.

But this is an audio amp. Sure anything drive train related is a risk as it is mission critical. BMW usually gets this right because getting it wrong can kill people. An audio amp, meh, what as your taking an exit ramp at 75 mph, your favorite tunes stop working?

At least you'll make the turn and live. Not sure if that can happen if you wrote custom suspension, transmission, ABS, and engine tuning code.

It's still ridiculous to me how they engineered this. This to me is a teltall sign of sloppy software development in places where it is not critical. This is classic pre production code meant to be tested in real life by consumers. This is BMW business as usual. And a smart company spending money is the right places.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by fancyfl1ght

But this is an audio amp. Sure anything drive train related is a risk as it is mission critical. BMW usually gets this right because getting it wrong can kill people. An audio amp, meh, what as your taking an exit ramp at 75 mph, your favorite tunes stop working?

At least you'll make the turn and live. Not sure if that can happen if you wrote custom suspension, transmission, ABS, and engine tuning code.

It's still ridiculous to me how they engineered this. This to me is a teltall sign of sloppy software development in places where it is not critical. This is classic pre production code meant to be tested in real life by consumers. This is BMW business as usual. And a smart company spending money is the right places.

It's not about saving lives; it's about saving money in prevented/rejected warranty repairs.

Think of it this way: a valvetrain on an engine, or a turbo unit, etc. can be replaced fairly easily. Wiring looms, chipsets, control units, and other electrical components? Not so much because to replace those often involves two things:

1). Partially disassembling portions of the car not really meant to be disassembled and reassembled, and
2). Replacing everything else controlled by the affected component.

Both cost tons of money in labor. BMW's paying for that. And it doesn't want to pay for that. How to prevent it? Keep aftermarket gizmos from playing nice with the system. Simple as that.

[djarchow]

Originally Posted by fancyfl1ght

But this is an audio amp. Sure anything drive train related is a risk as it is mission critical. BMW usually gets this right because getting it wrong can kill people. An audio amp, meh, what as your taking an exit ramp at 75 mph, your favorite tunes stop working?

At least you'll make the turn and live. Not sure if that can happen if you wrote custom suspension, transmission, ABS, and engine tuning code.

It's still ridiculous to me how they engineered this. This to me is a teltall sign of sloppy software development in places where it is not critical. This is classic pre production code meant to be tested in real life by consumers. This is BMW business as usual. And a smart company spending money is the right places.

I work in engine embedded software (off road, not cars). would guess there is some calibration that goes on between one of the other controllers and the amp during programming. This is common on vehicles. The problem is that the programming code can't get the needed data from the amp and aborts, or that value simply doesn't get written to the other controller. Now there are two possible things happening. That value is missing on startup so the controller either goes into boot mode or logs a fault code and shuts down.

The other possibility is that if the programming failed in the middle, you may not have all the code programmed into the controller. Which still means that on startup, that controller fails to load its code and drops to boot mode.

Most people assume that automotive embedded software is just like the software on our PC or our phone, but it's not. One big challenge you have on embedded systems is very limited amounts of RAM and storage. On your PC, your computer can store old versions of files, data etc when it gets updates so if things go wrong, the OS just reloads those old files from memory or storage and you are where you started from. Most embedded controllers on cars have maybe 250kb of RAM and maybe 3-4 mb of storage. So in most of them you just don't have enough memory or storage to hold a backup of the old code in case something goes wrong during programming. It is an all or nothing event.

Now were this my team designing this, I would have pushed very hard to not have a failure mode where one non critical component in the system failing programming would make it so the car can't start. But since the failure only happens when the dealer is reprogramming at the shop, it is less of a problem. If they are doing over the air reprogramming of this controller and it happens while the car is sitting in your garage, the warranty costs and customer dis-satisfaction could be big.

[JohnnyCanuck]

Just an FYI, I had an iDrive reflash done at the dealership with my ASD harness installed and there was no issue. I know it's not as broad as an ECU reflash, but I was concerned that the iDrive may have had a problem being flashed with the ASD installed. No problem.

[selmeralto]

Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck

Just an FYI, I had an iDrive reflash done at the dealership with my ASD harness installed and there was no issue. I know it's not as broad as an ECU reflash, but I was concerned that the iDrive may have had a problem being flashed with the ASD installed. No problem.

Thanks, Johnny. I'll make a note of this on the Strangelove thread.

[simoneves]

I read through this thread and the Strangelove thread, and can't see any further mention of problems with dealer visits and flashing while having a third-party amp installed. I have a Bimmertech and the ASD bypass harness and my car is due to go in next week. I'd really rather not have to take the trunk apart to put the original amp back in for the service, but I will if there's still belief of a problem...

[selmeralto]

Originally Posted by simoneves

I read through this thread and the Strangelove thread, and can't see any further mention of problems with dealer visits and flashing while having a third-party amp installed. I have a Bimmertech and the ASD bypass harness and my car is due to go in next week. I'd really rather not have to take the trunk apart to put the original amp back in for the service, but I will if there's still belief of a problem...

Dear Simoneves,

I haven't heard anything more, which doesn't count one way or another. Please do let me know what you decided to do and how things went, though, so I can keep the Strangelove post as up to date as possible. Thanks.

[akuan99]

I just had comm box replaced and dealer had to update ECU (at least that is what they told me) and no issue with having aftermarket amp installed.
I saw a lot of improvements with this upgrade.
BT streaming audio quality is much better.
I also felt improvement on adaptive suspension and throttle response ping in comfort mode.

[Tony88]

Just want to share my story about a similar situation I went through earlier today.

So I have the bimmertech amp and I remember back when I installed it that not having the stock H/K amp in place could cause new programming to fail. With that in mind, any time I take my car to the dealer (a 400 mile drive for me) I throw the stock amp in the trunk just in case.

Well today, I had an appointment to get the FEM body module replaced because of a separate issue. The dealer calls telling me that after replacing the module, the car will not accept any new programming. Now the car won’t start or be drivable for at least a few days until they can get with BMW NA but they won’t be available till Monday. It’s saturday now and I need to be back home by Monday morning.

I went down to the dealer, told them the situation and they were nice enough to let me throw the stock amp back in the car and try again (It’s not everyday you help a BMW tech push your dead car from one bay to another to get coded) 10 minutes later the tech calls me and tells me the programming is working!

I was so relieved I would be getting my car back on time!

[boostm3]

Any more info regarding the possible involvement of the ASD bypass harness alone when installed with an HK amp in an otherwise stock 2 series in dealer applied ECU flashes during service?

[AndrewC1989]

Originally Posted by Zooks527

the Bimmertech amp (for that matter, any aftermarket amp that doesn't give the correct responses to the ECU programming system) is incompatible with the dealer reflash process.

Is this an issue with HiFi cars as well or just HK equipped vehicles?

[MarcoZandrini]

Originally Posted by selmeralto

Amen. That's one of the main reasons I went with a speaker swap instead of electronics in upgrading the audio.

"it's still a crapshoot precisely because only BMW supposedly knows how its electronics operates.