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      01-14-2019, 01:18 PM   #1
sethwas
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trying to ask something different

I've been reading the forums for a while, since before I even purchased my 2, and seem to have come to a loss when it comes to the audio side.

'Luckily' my 2 doesn't have the HK, but boy is it awful. One would think fixing it is easy - and it is - just throw money at it and you're done!

But that's not my intent. Part of this is the journey and I'm looking to map out a plan.

The past week I've spent hours reading 'the great war on audio' here in the forums and it hasn't been made clear to me the direction I should go. This is because, understandably, people want the best! But I don't and hear me out.

Here's what I would like to know.

First, this won't be "should I upgrade the amp first or speakers first" like I've read previously. That's the wrong place to begin anyway. I'm pretty sure the most important component in an audio setup is the room. And the room in this case sucks. (both the interior acoustics and the fact that it's noisy all the time )

Knowing that massive limitation, (the whole, listen to music with 65mph of wind and road outside with the speakers next to your wrists) the extent I'm willing to go in this hobby is limited. I'm aware I can custom mount the speakers, or get new amps and DSP to compensate, but I've made the decision that I'm not interested in 'the best'.
What I am interested in is someone who did that already to their leased car and now has a new car and needs to part out the old equipment

Back on track: I don't listed to loud music, and am interested strictly in fidelity - and that means my first upgrade is soundproofing.
I'm not touching the HU, and won't touch the under seat drivers either.

However, once the doors are off, I don't want to take them off again for speakers so have to sort of kill 2 birds with one stone here.

I haven't been convinced that acoustically, the sail panel method is best. I'm looking to be convinced otherwise.

Right now, for me, to go the sail panel route, with identical drivers and tweeters to a coax, is approximately double the cost (pigtails, mounts, sail panels, all cost the same as just the coax speaker in the first place).
The consensus is that by raising the tweeter, and moving it farther away from the mid - you raise the soundstage. But it's only being raised a few inches. It would seem to be that raising the tweeters all the way up to the tops of the A pillars would be better - if improved soundstage was the goal.
But then they are way too far away from the mids - or are they?

Has anyone tried this?

An A/B of identical speakers in door vs. in door/sail panel.
or
An A/B of identical speakers in bottom of A pillar v top?

Assuming I can get answers there, the next question is, since I don't have high power needs, can I get away with just replacing the front speakers?

(ignoring under seat and trunk sub and of course the amp)

I don't listen to internet radio or satellite, but assuming I did, and knowing the sonic limitations to those sources, I should not feel the need to invest in anything exotic other than what I mentioned (soundproofing, speaker placement) because just getting a quality driver mounted properly in a deadened door will be enough. It's not 'the best!' but going the 'traditional route' of the $2k packages seems like overkill.

Does the stock amp make any accommodations to the sound signature limitations of the original speakers that would color the sound on new speakers, or its sending a flat signal?

Thanks,


Seth
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      01-15-2019, 06:27 PM   #2
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The first step, imho, is to replace the speakers. Why? BMW seems to skimp when it comes to the audio system in the 2-series. Also, replacing speakers provides the biggest bang for the buck. Why? Speakers convert electrical signals into audio. So cheeep speakers will always sound cheeep as they aren’t well designed, are made of poor quality materials and aren’t accurate (fidelity).

BMW amps are typically very good quality but are under-powered. So, for “normal folks, the factory amp is sufficient. The factory amp shows it’s weakness (low power) when inefficient (power (watts) versus loudness) speakers are installed.
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      01-16-2019, 08:10 AM   #3
sethwas
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I hear you.

I know replacing speakers is the first step.
(well removing the center is the first step).

And since I can't do anything about the room which is what you do for home listening (and audition) as its more important than speakers - I'm stuck.

Auditioning isn't possible for me. I've read other forums like e90post and m3post where they have a bit more detail on systems that work with our hardware and there truly is no consensus on what works and what doesn't because for every person who says their $2500 system is amazing there is someone who will say their $500 is better. (and my favorite are those who say that they spent $2500 on amps alone and you can't even get started unless you are willing to spend 50% the value of the car to begin )

For everyone who gets high efficiency speakers to work off the factory amp, or gets an Audison amp (built in DSP!) which is tidy, there is someone who gets lower efficiency speakers with a big amp.
And lastly for everyone who gets the drop in speakers, there is someone who doesn't and gets the adapter.

See, sonically, since the sail panels are only a few inches above the door mid's already, I can't see how it's worth 100% more money to get components - meaning instead put nicer coaxials and just stop there.
Unless someone has tried both and has an opinion?

i.e. morel integra 402 in door for $300, or morel integra 402 hybrid plus sail panel for $600. That $300 buys you an amp or DSP.
The only way I would consider comps at this point is if they were cheaper than coaxials because they cost more to install. Odds of that happening?

The question is, as you mention, is it worth spending all your money on great speakers and leaving the amp alone? Yes you are leaving capability on the table, but that may be useless for people who just listen while commuting at normal levels. So that prompts the follow up question, at what 'level' speaker should one stop if they are not planning on updating the amp or DSP.

Does a Focal K2 sound better on the factory amp than the PC100?

This seems to be left unanswered in the various boards because people who are paying money for the highest end speakers generally don't stop at just speakers but get the amp and DSP and they did it at once not in steps so have no comparison. That is really what I would like to know.

I guess I'm just going to have to see what's available locally second hand and go from there (and post what happens so maybe my answer will help someone else).

Seth
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      01-16-2019, 02:25 PM   #4
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yikes - looks like there's been some inflation.

The cost for the custom door mounts and pigtail is over $70 for the pair.
That's almost the cost of the 4" CDT speakers.

So looks like I'm going to have to table this question as it's no longer apples to apples as the coaxials v non coaxial are now so much further apart.

I mean - the 'cheap' JL C2 that people are doing isn't truly $89, but closer to $160 (not counting any dampeting mat which you should do).

So for all you readers out there - for the front - it means if you don't have the HK tweeter mounts already you need to shell out for the sail panels which means you are at $200 in just adapters/wires for the front doors and you haven't even bought speakers yet.

Looks like this thread got mooted before it got started because I'm now highly limited only to the coax speakers that come with the proper mounts:
Eton, CDT, BAV, Focal, Audison, MB Quart, Rockford Fosgate, and Match. (I might be missing one)
Or if I find something seriously reduced on craigslist...

Seth
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      01-16-2019, 03:08 PM   #5
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Some advice, from someone who has contributed regularly to the audio questions on this forum, who has some advanced knowledge about speaker placement, speaker types, and acoustics, and who understands where you're coming from in all regards:

1). You will need to address the underseat drivers if you upgrade the front speakers to components. Why? Because the first thing that ruins a tight, accurate, spacious soundstage is muddy mid-bass and bass frequencies -- which essentially become the same white noise that you'll be dealing with from road noise, tire noise, etc. Of the OEM drivers, the underseats are by far of the highest quality, so you can get away with their use for a time. But if you plan on doing what you're discussing, you will hear how deficient they are.

An axiom for any system, audio or otherwise: It is only as good as its weakest link. The underseats will be its weakest link when you are done with what you're thinking.

2). Raising the tweeters in a component system above ear level isn't recommended because tweeters are highly directional. The reason the sail-panel placement works reasonably well in most cars is because that's the best placement for them relative to ear level. Any higher than that and one runs into phase and projection issues that cause spatial disorientation regarding the programming. Since when should a pinch harmonic from an electric guitar solo, or snare drum and cymbal hits, come from above you, but power chords and fill rolls come from below you? That's the effect that I'm talking about.

To wit: Advanced surround sound systems such as Dolby Atmos that incorporate satellite speakers above the listening position rarely feed 'critical' programming (example: dialogue) to those speakers. They are specifically used for spatial effects ... which brings me to my next point:

3). The rear speakers are entirely optional and are essentially so-called 'fill' speakers -- just like rear satellite speakers are in a surround sound system. If you're interested in fidelity and true stereo sound, disconnect them.

4). Components are worth the extra money in a 2 Series precisely because the tweeters are able to be placed in a better position. As they are now, tweeters in a coaxial driver are not able to be aimed well; they're too low, and the dispersion of the one in the driver's door is completely blocked by the door handle. Not good. If you're truly interested in fidelity, components are a MUST.

Since you only want to do the doors once (understandable), I would start with sound deadening and the Morel Integra components (or whatever choice you end up making). Install all of that first, then re-assess and improve from there. Take it in steps. That's how I approached my upgrades, and I decided to stop after adding an amp (no DSP, stock underseats.)
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      01-16-2019, 03:23 PM   #6
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I had many of the similar questions as you when I first got my 2 series (non-HK)! I decided to take it step by step and I would recommend that you do the same. I did front speakers (Etons- coaxials) and sound deadening first. I have been in other cars that have the sails installed and personally, I would not say that it is worth it. IMO the minimal change in sound stage is not worth the investment, and a good quality coaxial speaker can sound better than a component one. But again, depends on how much you value fidelity.

Anyways, I wasn't very happy with the sound at this point because the change was fairly minimal. This mod changed it from around a 2/10 to 3/10. Mind you, I am one for louder/ more exciting music with a bunch of bass, although I do enjoy the clarity and fidelity. I felt as though the amp was lacking and so I scoured the second hand forums and found an amp/dsp combo. This paired with the ASD delete brought my system up to a 7/10. The amp was now able to fully utilize the front speakers. There was only maybe a 20% increase in volume but the soundstage, detail and general 'fullness' of sound had a significant jump. At this point, the my biggest complaint came from the low end, where the flat OEM underseat subs were just not capable of reaching the sub 60Hz range with sufficient clarity. I have since added another amp and a trunk sub and I have eq'd out a majority of frequencies that would regularly be sent to the underseat subs. I would say I'm at a 8.5/10 now. Different schools of thought here- half the people on here will say that you are better off just replacing the underseat subs! Once I eliminate more cabin and road noise and other rattles and vibrations in the car, I will be closer to 10.

In your case, for clarity at average volumes- I would recommend the ASD harness, new speakers, sound deadening and door weatherproofing (I havent installed this yet but others in the forum have seen a 10% decrease in road noise). If youre not happy after that, I would look into a new amp.
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      01-16-2019, 03:51 PM   #7
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Amazing - a response from the man himself - thanks! I really appreciate it.

So the answer my question is - don't move the tweeter higher than the sail panel unless you want to raise the mid as well.

I've seen people place the mid and tweeter (even in a coaxial) in the base of the A pillar. Still lower than ear height but now forward of the listener and not off to the side.
sort of like this but more discreet:
http://www.maroochycarsound.com.au/g...akers-dash-pod

lots of fun ideas here:
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/723531496355845044

Fabrication costs are not really that bad, basically just the cost of a second pair of speakers. Since I'm not installing myself, and am paying anyway for the labor, it ends up being about the same price as a decent set of components plus custom mounts and wiring - so a wash. Especially since it simplifies the install massively. The A pillar removal is faster than the door removal (although if I remove the door I get to do some dampening).

I love what this guy did - just put the whole darn coax in the sail panel:
http://soundscapecaraudio.com/Toyota...aker-Pods.html

But that really cuts into interior space. A truck I get, a compact car not so much. (although I could just make a mock-up of the speaker to see how bad that would be - I envision leaving the sail panel alone so the speaker wouldn't swing out with the door and instead getting replacement pillars off ebay and attaching the mount to the base of the pillar to 'hide' the sail panel when the door is closed)


I know you are familiar with the upstage setup by CDT and how they make them really more for spacial effect (like Atmos) due to them rolling their tweeter off extra high.
I think I may skip that experiment here though.

It's funny, the days of going through every option and leaving no stone unturned are over for me. I'm happy with 'good enough'.
And good enough seems to be cough up the money I had budgeted for an amp and use that towards a more than decent comp set.
If I were to go the coaxial route - then just get something made for the doors because it's compromised as you say. If you want more than that component.
Leave it to the installer to figure out the mounts and wires (they may have their own sail panel solution) and call it a day. Leave the stock amp and stock 8" drivers and stock rear deck setup.
Should something nice in the way of amplification show up on offerup, cross that bridge when you get to it.

Seth

Last edited by sethwas; 01-16-2019 at 04:43 PM..
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      01-16-2019, 03:59 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neeraj619 View Post
In your case, for clarity at average volumes- I would recommend the ASD harness, new speakers, sound deadening and door weatherproofing (I havent installed this yet but others in the forum have seen a 10% decrease in road noise). If youre not happy after that, I would look into a new amp.
Thanks! My '16 doesn't have much in the way of engine noise. Also I have the black foam in the quarter panel ahead of the door hinge.
I think when I do the door speakers I'll dampen there (3 places, inside of outer door skin, and both sides of speaker mount frame). and when I do the amp I'll dampen the entire trunk. Of course amps are another topic because the larger amps don't fit in the cubby that most people use, and I use my trunk for cargo daily and have to find a place that is safe from knocks and bumps. Back of seat it isn't possible and under the rear deck doesn't work either. Only above the rear deck seems to work but then is exposed. That's a thread for another time.

It's funny how the logic goes circular.

Get the best speakers money can buy!
They don't fit? Ok get the ones that do!
But those aren't as high end as the ones that don't fit - so just lower your expectations and get a lower end speaker and save the money!
But then you need to buy an adapter and the cost goes up!
So just get the expensive speakers and be done with it!
and so on.

Got to find some locals who have different audio in this car to see if the coax v component is really worth it in the factory locations.

Seth
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      01-16-2019, 04:16 PM   #9
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I mounted both amps under the rear deck! Lots of grounding points and easy mounting. As long as you dont need the full height of your trunk, its a great solution!

The Eton speakers definitely make life super easy as they are plug n play, sound great and dont break the bank
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      01-16-2019, 04:31 PM   #10
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I'll definitely reply back with what I do - I was looking at an older Audison LR6 which is basically a fancy pants JL XD600 as it has 4 discrete channels for the 'mains' and 2 more for the 'subs'. And its not compact at all. The compact one is the Primo 8.9 and it has DSP built in (no need for the additional bit 10), but is more expensive than the JL and LR6 and isn't nearly as powerful. (we're talking all less than $500 here).

Plan C is to get 2 hertz amps - a 4 channel and 2 channel - as that splits the difference. Cheaper than the JL and Primo, but more than the LR6. However they are tiny and can be hidden just cost more to install and configure.

this guy has me thinking expensive thoughts:


and this - woah:
https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...php?p=17888680

Seth

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      01-17-2019, 04:12 PM   #11
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So I went by the local installer today to get an idea of their first hand experiences with these options. They do lots of BMW's and incidentally there was an M240i in the lot. Kid was getting a big sub box for the trunk. Space or usability was not a concern for him


I'll paraphrase our chat but here's the gyst - there are effectively 4 ways to do this (we're talking about the non HK system here because that car has a different upgrade path).

I'll invent the levels and call them: budget, standard, baller, pro/competition using online pricing. You should expect to pay more over the counter but get warranty/returnability, and less if you go the ebay/craigslist route.

Each level has only a minor increase from the one before. So from budget to standard is a minor bump in quality, and from standard to standard plus is a minor bump again, and from standard plus to baller is a minor bump.
Only when you skip levels is there a considerable jump. The nice part is there is only a couple hundred bucks between levels as shown here:

"budget" is to not touch the amps but simply replace the 4 speakers with identical coax with Built in BMW mounts and harness (don't buy speakers that need extra pieces as any money you save you end up spending more in and at this price point it isn't worth it - unless you have a shop install and they don't charge extra for the parts)...and you're done. There is no upgrade path from here and it would require replacing the speakers again with something else should you go that route to hear better audio. You could amp/DSP them for an improvement, but you would be better off starting with better speakers there in the first place. Cost under $300 before labor.

I'm not sure if anyone here looking at the audio upgrade section would be truly happy with stopping here, maybe the guys who are more into performance mods where adding audio means added weight, but I thought I would add it in.

"standard" is what you typically see here in the forums. high end coaxials or low end components in the front (they like the OEM sail panel method vs just bolting the tweet to the blank panel and didn't feel there was a serious difference between low end comps and high end coaxials due to the mounting limitations). Leave the rear alone. Dampen the doors. Cost is under $450 before labor. Again you need to only pick from speakers that have the BMW mounts and harness to stick to the price point (unless you have a shop where this is just included in the install labor). But there is an upgrade path this time.

"standard plus" gives you an amp/dsp. The local guys prefer something like the Audiotech Fischer to the JL amp. Obviously when you take out the carpet to change the amps you dampen the trunk. Figure $600 in addition to the standard upgrade not including labor.

This is effectively the end of where most people would be more than happy.


So all said and done you are at $1000-1500 in parts before labor to do this at an acceptable level. Figure $1k for something that is BMW friendly and $1500 for something superior that needs custom mounts/adapters/harness. If the speaker mounts up with no rings you save some cash.


No sub upgrade is needed. In addition, they emphatically recommend NOT getting high end speakers at any stage unless you know up front that you are installing a decent amp. They feel without an amp or DSP you are wasting your money on high end speakers.

Also - at the same price point - they say that the sonic differences in getting a speaker with the BMW mounts built in or having to retrofit a 'fancier' speaker that needs custom mounts are more personal preference and timber as opposed to actual superiority. Again, remember keeping the price the same - and at this level they are close enough for jazz. So unless you must have the 'fancier' brand with the 4 hole - or unless they are significantly cheaper - just get the ones designed to fit from the get go. The money spent on the mounts and harness would be better spent towards an amp/DSP.

I should stop here but promised 2 more levels. From here you can have some fun if you have money burning a hole in your pocket.

What I call "baller" is high end components all around, amp/dsp, dampening the doors and trunk, and new subs. Preferably all by the same company for the ability to name drop if that's important to you. The cost here is about $2500. The difference here between this and standard plus is basically just using the highest end components in front with the mid-bass subs under the seat (the latter of which are the bulk of the cost of the upgrade).
You can do a trunk sub and amp too for another grand on top...call it 'extra baller.'

Above that is just custom everything. No real budget here. But we've long gone past sanity.


Seth
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      01-19-2019, 05:02 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viffermike View Post
Some advice, from someone who has contributed regularly to the audio questions on this forum, who has some advanced knowledge about speaker placement, speaker types, and acoustics, and who understands where you're coming from in all regards:

1). You will need to address the underseat drivers if you upgrade the front speakers to components. Why? Because the first thing that ruins a tight, accurate, spacious soundstage is muddy mid-bass and bass frequencies -- which essentially become the same white noise that you'll be dealing with from road noise, tire noise, etc. Of the OEM drivers, the underseats are by far of the highest quality, so you can get away with their use for a time. But if you plan on doing what you're discussing, you will hear how deficient they are.

An axiom for any system, audio or otherwise: It is only as good as its weakest link. The underseats will be its weakest link when you are done with what you're thinking.

2). Raising the tweeters in a component system above ear level isn't recommended because tweeters are highly directional. The reason the sail-panel placement works reasonably well in most cars is because that's the best placement for them relative to ear level. Any higher than that and one runs into phase and projection issues that cause spatial disorientation regarding the programming. Since when should a pinch harmonic from an electric guitar solo, or snare drum and cymbal hits, come from above you, but power chords and fill rolls come from below you? That's the effect that I'm talking about.

To wit: Advanced surround sound systems such as Dolby Atmos that incorporate satellite speakers above the listening position rarely feed 'critical' programming (example: dialogue) to those speakers. They are specifically used for spatial effects ... which brings me to my next point:

3). The rear speakers are entirely optional and are essentially so-called 'fill' speakers -- just like rear satellite speakers are in a surround sound system. If you're interested in fidelity and true stereo sound, disconnect them.

4). Components are worth the extra money in a 2 Series precisely because the tweeters are able to be placed in a better position. As they are now, tweeters in a coaxial driver are not able to be aimed well; they're too low, and the dispersion of the one in the driver's door is completely blocked by the door handle. Not good. If you're truly interested in fidelity, components are a MUST.

Since you only want to do the doors once (understandable), I would start with sound deadening and the Morel Integra components (or whatever choice you end up making). Install all of that first, then re-assess and improve from there. Take it in steps. That's how I approached my upgrades, and I decided to stop after adding an amp (no DSP, stock underseats.)
Did you leave all your acoustic mods in the car when you sold it? How are the 718 speakers?
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      01-25-2019, 02:29 PM   #13
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Had an interesting chat with CDT this week - they recommended something entirely different.
And here's why:

So I bought an amp. Wasn't planning on it but one came my way with the BMW harness already. It's the infamous Match amp, but this one's 8 channels. (and it was significantly cheaper to me than the JBL unit)
That means I get to run the front components active. This means I save money by not needing to get a front speaker set with a crossover as I can do it in the amp.
The rears I would run passive, and of course no sub, just the underseat woofers as usual.

When I mentioned this to CDT they said to not use the sail panel method at all. They said just get their nicest mid's for the door and use a center dual voice coil tweet functioning as left and right.

I thought this was very interesting, (bouncing sound off windshield and window glass) but didn't know if I wanted to be a guinea pig.
It does allow me to step up in speaker levels though.
Before I do that I'll install the amp in the trunk and deaden the trunk and see how the factory speakers sound with it : )

Seth
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      02-25-2019, 02:19 PM   #14
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So I made a decision and was about to pull the trigger - and then the bottom fell out.
I decided I wanted to get a BMW specific system but one that doesn't include crossovers to save some money and apparently there's no such thing?

Can someone point me in the right direction? I'm looking for a 4" mid that already has the BMW ring mount and cable adapter built in.

I think I'm striking out
then the cost of buying the non-bmw speaker and the harness/mount ring ends up being the same as just getting a kit with a crossover and that's not what I had in mind.

Anyone know where I can get the components separately? I asked around audio shops and ebay and no one sells the pieces as individual components.

Seth
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      09-01-2019, 07:13 PM   #15
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it's been a few months, and since it's a slow/weird day because of the hurricane, I figured I'd update you on the answer to my question above.
(delay was caused by me just enjoying the car as is, and enjoying not spending any money for a while)

The answer to my last question is yes, and it got complicated.

I went around and around the web looking for options that fit this car and spent lots of time at places like this:
https://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...parison-4.html

and came up with some interesting price realizations.

First, to go coax is not simply the best bang for the buck. Doesn't matter which brand, whether it's something like audiofrog or sinfoni or even rockford fosgate whichever, when you buy a coax set, to get the identical drivers separate you aren't paying extra, sometimes they are cheaper.

Jl C2? The one that everyone throws on the rear deck? Typical price is about $110 or so for the coax. Well the tweeters for the C2 alone go for the same price. hmm....that doesn't meet my hypothesis.

With Audison the APX4 coaxial is around $120, but to get the separate AP4 woofer and voce 1.1 tweet is $240.
uh oh, more expensive (likely tweeter is higher class not apples to apples). But still more expensive. and the coax typically come with crossovers, the separates not.

Hertz energy coax? $120. Hertz energy tweet and energy woofer (same line)? $210.

So where's the savings? oh yeah:

Then CDT, they have quite the broad spectrum of stuff. HD line which is the highest to go before the ES line which is over $300 for just a pair of mids. Of course they make 2 ES speakers, the 4 and 04. Going down to the 4 which is still above the HD and add in the DRT 26 tweet gets you near $300 all in. Drop to the HD mid and you are at $240. Not bad (they don't make a generic coax, so this was a trick question, closest thing is the the drop in BMW models with the built in mount and those run more than $300 so I count this win however they use the BMW connection which means more complicated wiring when running active).

The Morel Hybrid Integra 402 seems to be everyone's favorite option. (which is funny because in the forums I was looking around that was considered something 'basic' or 'entry' with dynaudio being the holy grail. Of course a set of those and sinfoni tweets is about $2k....).
Typically the coax version is somewhere north of $450 including crossovers.
The component version is somewhere north of $540 including crossovers.
To buy the MW4 mid and the MT230 tweet is only $430 though (no crossovers). That's cheaper than even the vertus component set.
pretty solid and meets my hypothesis.

And of course if you wanted to go really crazy, you could get the CDT DRT-26 tweet with the morel MW4 woofer and that's only $340 which seems to be the cheapest of all.

Final decision and install will be October.

I may not dynamat the trunk just to save a buck. Following the 'weakest link' methodology here:
Start with speakers (which includes deadening the doors same time and running wires to trunk which means an extra $300-350 on top of speaker cost for labor, mounts, etc.). Ideally at same time throw in amp. If speakers were second hand, just EQ the amp and call it a day (Since it has DSP of course). If they are new, wait a few weeks and tune then.
Only then decide if deadening the trunk is worth it. Most would want to move to a trunk sub, but that's not in my wheelhouse. I may go after the underseats, but that's a story for another day.

Seth
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      09-05-2019, 06:56 PM   #16
sethwas
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So this should be my last update on this topic because I've made the decisions and done the research to answer my questions from my first post up top.

First, I was coming from a cost no object perspective. Assuming you could go nuts what would you do with the limitations of this vehicle? And then how would you scale back due to diminishing returns. Yes that amazing system will sound better than a cheaper one, but for twice the price it won't sound twice as good, and how low can you go? Here's what I found out:

Dampening: super important. Ideally would only dampen the entire trunk, dampen the rear deck, dampen the doors, and dampen the rear seat area. No need for firewall or floor or anywhere else as it would have no impact. So what to do?
Answer: as far as diminishing returns go, just dampen the doors while the door cards are off. rear deck, and rear seat can be skipped. If you put a trunk sub in, dampen the trunk, or if you find too much road noise, but this is cost sensitive and won't have nearly the impact of the doors.

Amps: You could get a dedicated amp for a dedicated sub. Can get another dedicated amp for the two 8" speakers under the seat. can get another dedicated amp for the 4 channels that remain. Must run active because crossovers as supplied by the speaker manufacturers don't have the interior of the car in mind when they create them so have to add a layer of processing. Ideally have two tunes, one for quiet listening and one for louder listening. The quieter listening increases the low end a touch to compensate for perceived volume, and louder SPL lowers that.
Answer: just get the 8 channel amp with built in DSP. Skip the trunk sub and dedicated amp altogether. Run bridged for 'subs' under seat mono, leaving stock for now bandpass filtered. Run single channel each for rear deck, and remaining 4 channels for front soundstage. Yes you have to 'tune' it, but assuming an audio shop is doing the install work its worth their time as they do this all day long (you wouldn't go to a shop that doesn't know how to easily do this)

Rear deck speakers: apparently doesn't matter. But since I do run with rear passengers and like a touch of fill, just get whatever's cheap that is timbre matched to your fronts. Coax is fine, in line crossover is fine, fidelity is not important just similar sonic signature. The answer here depends on the mains.

Mains: there are several split questions here:
Initial topic- coax/point source or separates?
Answer: The key here is off axis listening. The mids just don't face the driver - you hear the audio from the side of the speaker. So not only do you need to get a 4" mid that has good off axis response, you need to find a tweeter as well, since not only is it off axis, but it's in a blocked environment.
While it may seem simple to install a coax, because we are running active have to pay to run a separate wire from the amp to the tweeter, there's no cost advantage to doing so. Now that we are firmly in separates territory you would then mount the tweeter as close to the mid as possible yet near ear height but aimed better, which means the closest place for this is near the sail panel not somewhere else on the door card.
Second: put the speaker in the OEM blank panel, buy the mesh panel, mount in a pod.
Answer: buy the mesh panel. The cost of pods is actually cheaper than the panel, but the panel gets the tweeter farther outboard on the driver side which is superior for imaging. Pods don't hold an advantage in this car, but otherwise they sonically are superior just due to the nature of mounting flexibility and the pods effect on the low end of the tweeter.

Secondary topic: size of drivers, you can fit a 3"-4" mid in the door, and you can fit a 1"-3" tweet up top, which to pick?
Answer: skip the 3" mid. Sure it will sound better on the highs, but won't play low enough to blend with the subs under the seat, there will be a sonic gap. Since you have the larger mid, you can get a tweeter with a narrower frequency response, and get a smaller one and limit its low end to better blend with the sub. You are space limited to whatever fits in your panel/pod and in this case 1-1.5".


So now with those limitations in mind what's left?
As seen above even the most basic new set of components in front pushes you firmly in the $300 territory. So what are the options? I went around and around looking at just plain woofers from speaker manufacturers, to car speaker kits, and there wasn't anything I could find for under $130 or so for a single mid, and $75 or so for a tweet. I then scoured the BMW forums and audio forums for BMW people and many just go with what's shallow as it makes the install easier (except for the ballers who basically custom every step and don't care for install ease- but again there's no 'there' there, just knowledge that you have the best, even if not quite best is certainly good enough).

At the end of the day, I went with Morel strictly because it was easier to find a set second hand (and I thought it was neat to get something from an Israeli company besides Waze or Whats App). The 402 mid is known for 3 things, shallow mounting depth, decent low end range to blend with sub under seat, and quality off axis response. I was 'this' close to getting the CDT ES setup (which CDT reccomended to me over the HD, CL, and Chrome and MX) but was limited to retail and it priced me out. Audison got nice reviews but fitting the mid seemed touchy, and Hertz was expensive as was JBL). I was going to blend the CDT tweeter since I liked its size and range but the specific tweeter (MT22) will have to be good enough because it was an order of magnitude cheaper (the MT23 and later version MT-230 was more expensive and gets crossed lower which I don't need and the 250 is larger still and also crossing out the frequencies where it holds an advantage). The specific woofer actually is not the 402 but its predecessor the ovation II, which has a different magnet design and according to musicar is sonically a smidge better than the newer model (which was changed due to materials sourcing). Since I got morel on the front deck, I'm just grabbing some used Tempo's (don't need the ultra of this line and the Maximo which is the entry line was actually more expensive so go figure).

All that was left was to get the BMW harness to mount the rears to. And the fronts won't use the OEM cables at all. They will need a mount ring, but the shop makes those.

I'm ok with a used car, and have 5+ year old audio equipment in my home setup, and am comfortable with a few year old car speakers as well. It's been quite a journey and I'm happy the decision has been made.
In case anyone is wondering what searching for 8 months on ebay, forums, craigslist, and offer up gets you: the Morel components and coax, 8 channel match amp, amp BMW harness, and HK sail panels all came under $800 shipped.

Ideally credits would be anything I could get for the OEM stuff and morel crossover I'm not using.
Cost to install will be labor, tuning, and the mount rings, cable, and of course sail panel.

Seth
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      03-13-2020, 05:46 PM   #17
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so here's an update many months later.
I finally got the morel hybrids installed in the sail panels in the doors.
no rears done, no amps, just the morels off the factory amp with the morel crossover.

Some notes:
much much much improved soundstage. I can leave the L/R fader centered. Before I had to compensate and even then it was so-so.

Bass is so much cleaner and more detailed, not just a mush of thump. Of course its source sensitive. It's just tight and clean which is great.

Treble is atrocious though. Worse than before. Likely due to the 'house curve' of the factory amp/eq. It's pushing a wierd mix of highs to compensate for the OEM woofer and nothing I can do in the idrive can help. It's almost like the midrange is gone. Looks like I need to get an amp installed pronto because the sound is harsh and fatiguing. Sounds great on classical music though.

I have my audiotech fisher amp and the shop actually recommended against it. For 2 reasons: 1) they've never installed one before and don't want to try. 2) they don't think an EQ makes a difference. Better to get an amp that you don't mess with as adjusting delays and alignment make no difference in this car. Too small, speakers close enough together, noisy environment, etc.

Seth
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      04-21-2020, 01:04 PM   #18
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ok - so an update.

I tinkered with the built in HU EQ and had to turn the treble to the minimum possible, and turn the bass down about 3-4 ticks and it's actually fairly decent.
I had to move the l/r fader a tick to the right to do what I can with the front image, as these speakers are really sensitive to subtle changes in the fader (less so with the EQ).

Since I still have the old speakers in the rear deck I messed with the fade to compare and contrast and, you know what, it's really night and day. The morel hybrids are 'that' good.

The lower mid/upper bass is particularly punchy and clean, that's what amazes me the most so far. I get that the treble is great because it's got a dedicated tweet now, but the midbass is strong.
Sure satellite sounds like crap, and mp3 significantly better, but HD radio is nice and sharp.

Only one thing that was annoying, is that there is a very high noise floor. I understand these speakers are way more sensitive so they are picking up and playing any and everything that gets fed into the line. What this means is there is a hiss, like an old record player spinning before the song starts.

Some research said it may be the ASD. I figure, may, isn't really helpful a response, but I ordered the $55 part from technic and figured what the hell.
It's just an in-line filter so should be stupid easy to do.

Ha - no.

I thought you just lift the rear trunk liner and the amp is below.
It aint. It's in the drivers fenderwell. and you have to remove the trunk liner, the plastic trunk latch protector, and the entire carpet over the driver wheel well.
Again - I thought it would just be held on with clips. Nope, they are plugs that require a screwdriver to open (just slide a medium screwdriver under the clip and gently twist/rock back and forth until it pops. Don't pull or anything rough or you'll break it). So remove 4 from the plastic trunk latch protector, and 1 next to the rear seat fold latch.

Oops, there's one more on the inside of the car when the seat is folded.
Oh and there's an anchor that's held down but not with a clip. it's a darn torx screw and it's a huge size that isn't carried in most automotive kits.
I'm on my 3rd trip inside now for tools and the trunk is in pieces.
I found a very large flat head bit that fit in the tines of the torx and with a lot of grunt to release from it's sleep it gently came out.

Now pull the carpet right? wrong. try to wiggle out the plastic trunk protector. The rubber trunk surround blocks it from coming out so just get it so and it flies out - be careful not to bend the inside plastic guides. Then pull the carpet from the bottom to release the side from the fenderwell, and it will get stuck on the 12V cigarrete lighter cable, so reach behind and release it. no clip just pulls off. Now remove the darn carpet. (it gets stuck on the tray above the amp and ASD so just use 2 hands one under one over).

Pop off the little tray that protects the ASD and install the harness. This is the easiest part. Did I mention I'm doing this in a dark garage with a cell phone flashlight?

Now that it's on turn on the car (just accessory mode, no engine noise, no AC) to make sure everything works before reassembly.
Works! No errors or lights or codes or anything.

So put the carpet back (start on the rear seat side, assuming you never actually took the carpet out just pulled it aside) then re attach the 12V cable, and push everything in place.
Now pull the pins from the clips everywhere, pinch the clips to fit through the metal hole and with your thumb push the pin in the clip. Do rear seat, then net hook by trunk opening, then top clip by rear seat release. Then put in the trunk latch protector, try to get it as straight as possible, I used a needle nose pliers held with the tips closed to use as a conical wedge to gently roll the rubber surround over the lip of the protector as it covered the entire plastic plate. Make sure it's solid no rattles, then push in the 4 clips.
Now last is that torx screw and cover with its plate and you're done.

Now to go inside and listen to hopefully nothing but music - aaaaaaaaaaaand no dice. Still a hiss.

What am I missing? Is this the HU sending the hiss? The OEM amp?

Seth
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