THE LARGEST BMW 2-SERIES FORUM ON THE PLANET
2Addicts
2Addicts
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
2Addicts | BMW 2-Series forum Technical Topics N55 (M235i) Engine, Transmission, Exhaust, Tuning Do I need an intercooler

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      12-25-2015, 09:01 PM   #1
ohohoh123456
First Lieutenant
ohohoh123456's Avatar
113
Rep
303
Posts

Drives: 2020 M4
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: IL

iTrader: (1)

Do I need an intercooler

Hey all,

Just placed order for a catted downpipe, and BMS stage 1 tune. My car currently has BMS intake on it and I'm wondering if I need an intercooler for the car to run reliably? I tried to search on the forum but maybe I missed the discussions.

Any thoughts would be appreciated!
__________________
2020 M4 Heritage Edition///Velvet Blue

Last edited by ohohoh123456; 12-25-2015 at 09:15 PM..
Appreciate 0
      12-25-2015, 10:44 PM   #2
Luminous
Captain
Luminous's Avatar
742
Rep
893
Posts

Drives: 2019 M5 Competition
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Westchester County, NY

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ohohoh123456
Hey all,

Just placed order for a catted downpipe, and BMS stage 1 tune. My car currently has BMS intake on it and I'm wondering if I need an intercooler for the car to run reliably? I tried to search on the forum but maybe I missed the discussions.

Any thoughts would be appreciated!
No you don't need an intercooler
__________________
2019 SG M5C

2015 SO M3 6MT

2015 BSM M235xi
Appreciate 0
      12-25-2015, 11:09 PM   #3
ohohoh123456
First Lieutenant
ohohoh123456's Avatar
113
Rep
303
Posts

Drives: 2020 M4
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: IL

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luminous View Post
No you don't need an intercooler
Thank you! So usually at what stage an intercooler is required to avoid overheating issues?
__________________
2020 M4 Heritage Edition///Velvet Blue
Appreciate 0
      12-26-2015, 03:55 AM   #4
Bee Pee
Brigadier General
United Kingdom
1738
Rep
4,496
Posts

Drives: AW M2 DCT
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: SW London

iTrader: (3)

Given that M2 uses same IC as m235i you will be fine with OE IC.

Here in UK I'm using OE IC with jb4 catted DP on pump fuel and getting 400/460 crank power/torque on map 6.

You can try logging in map 5 to see how boost, AFR and ign av are. Map 1 gives +4 psi over stock and map 5 should exceed this easily and safely.
Appreciate 1
      12-26-2015, 07:58 PM   #5
ocN55
Lieutenant Colonel
ocN55's Avatar
United_States
559
Rep
1,503
Posts

Drives: '15 M235i 6MT/ '16 M3
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: LA

iTrader: (18)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bee Pee View Post
Given that M2 uses same IC as m235i you will be fine with OE IC.

Here in UK I'm using OE IC with jb4 catted DP on pump fuel and getting 400/460 crank power/torque on map 6.

You can try logging in map 5 to see how boost, AFR and ign av are. Map 1 gives +4 psi over stock and map 5 should exceed this easily and safely.
You mind sharing your map 6 settings?

Running meth?
__________________
FBO M235i r
F80 M3
Appreciate 0
      12-27-2015, 01:21 AM   #6
dt20011
Lieutenant
dt20011's Avatar
262
Rep
528
Posts

Drives: 2014 M235i
Join Date: May 2014
Location: SoCal

iTrader: (0)

Shoot, I used the stock FMIC long after I was running over 500whp. N20 shares the same FMIC as N55.
Appreciate 0
      12-27-2015, 03:44 AM   #7
Bee Pee
Brigadier General
United Kingdom
1738
Rep
4,496
Posts

Drives: AW M2 DCT
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: SW London

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ocN55 View Post
You mind sharing your map 6 settings?

Running meth?
No meth.

My suggestion is you build your own map 6 by logging WOT runs on map 5 and then create your map 6 baseline. If your ign adv, AFR and pwm are all ok then consider stepping up the boost in 0.5psi steps until ign adv starts to drop.
Appreciate 1
      12-27-2015, 03:47 AM   #8
ocN55
Lieutenant Colonel
ocN55's Avatar
United_States
559
Rep
1,503
Posts

Drives: '15 M235i 6MT/ '16 M3
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: LA

iTrader: (18)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bee Pee View Post
No meth.

My suggestion is you build your own map 6 by logging WOT runs on map 5 and then create your map 6 baseline. If your ign adv, AFR and pwm are all ok then consider stepping up the boost in 0.5psi steps until ign adv starts to drop.
I have some experience with Map 6 already. I was just curious what your setting were like to hit those dyno numbers.

Here is where I'm at. I wanted someone to compare with since it's rare to find someone doing stock turbo map 6 on these cars.
1500 11
2000 13
2500 15
3000 16
3500 16.5
4000 17
4500 17.5
5000 16.5
5500 15.5
6000 14
6500 12.5
7000 12
__________________
FBO M235i r
F80 M3
Appreciate 0
      12-27-2015, 03:04 PM   #9
Bee Pee
Brigadier General
United Kingdom
1738
Rep
4,496
Posts

Drives: AW M2 DCT
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: SW London

iTrader: (3)

Oc

How are you actuals compared the targets in your map 6 above ?

BP
__________________
Fettled M135i EB AT - gone but not forgotten:
AW M2 DCT
Appreciate 0
      12-27-2015, 09:09 PM   #10
ocN55
Lieutenant Colonel
ocN55's Avatar
United_States
559
Rep
1,503
Posts

Drives: '15 M235i 6MT/ '16 M3
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: LA

iTrader: (18)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bee Pee View Post
Oc

How are you actuals compared the targets in your map 6 above ?

BP
Pretty solid, but I overboost sometimes.check it out here http://www.n54tech.com/forums/attach...1&d=1451270552
My actuals are close to target, it just sucks that I'm having fueling limitations.

I tried map 7 once with this same setup and fuel, I was hitting 19psi for most of the rev range until my HPFP gave up and caused me to misfire.
__________________
FBO M235i r
F80 M3

Last edited by ocN55; 12-27-2015 at 09:15 PM..
Appreciate 0
      12-28-2015, 02:40 PM   #11
Bee Pee
Brigadier General
United Kingdom
1738
Rep
4,496
Posts

Drives: AW M2 DCT
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: SW London

iTrader: (3)

OC

You may have to back down your target 17.5 to 17psi @ 4.5k.

Going for targets north of 17psi may be causing your problems. Have compared your map 6 log with map 5 logs ?

BP
__________________
Fettled M135i EB AT - gone but not forgotten:
AW M2 DCT
Appreciate 0
      12-28-2015, 03:08 PM   #12
mike@x-ph.com
Joint Chiefs of Staff
mike@x-ph.com's Avatar
United_States
23785
Rep
190,128
Posts

Drives: 07-335/12-328/18-M4/21-M4CP
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Las Vegas

iTrader: (23)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ohohoh123456 View Post
Hey all,

Just placed order for a catted downpipe, and BMS stage 1 tune. My car currently has BMS intake on it and I'm wondering if I need an intercooler for the car to run reliably? I tried to search on the forum but maybe I missed the discussions.

Any thoughts would be appreciated!
Car would run reliably with or without the intercooler. An Aftermarket intercooler will give you better performance though
__________________
Check out our current sale by clicking on this link!
https://x-ph.com/sale/

Phone number 702-494-9435
Appreciate 0
      12-28-2015, 06:34 PM   #13
ocN55
Lieutenant Colonel
ocN55's Avatar
United_States
559
Rep
1,503
Posts

Drives: '15 M235i 6MT/ '16 M3
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: LA

iTrader: (18)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bee Pee
OC

You may have to back down your target 17.5 to 17psi @ 4.5k.

Going for targets north of 17psi may be causing your problems. Have compared your map 6 log with map 5 logs ?

BP
I'll be PMing you shortly. I don't want to keep derailing this thread.

And you're probably right, as much as I hate to back down on the boost, I may need to lower it
__________________
FBO M235i r
F80 M3
Appreciate 0
      12-29-2015, 10:23 AM   #14
Jeff@TopGearSolutions
Jeff@TopGearSolutions's Avatar
United_States
3441
Rep
79,212
Posts

Drives: C6 Z06, 09 335i, 10 335xi
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: www.TopGearSolutions.com

iTrader: (37)

You don't need an intercooler but if you want to gain horsepower its definitely a recommended.

As you increase boost you create more heat and reduce efficiency, which reduces potential horsepower gains and overall consistency between back to back runs.

As you heat soak the engine, you will have less and less power as the stock intercooler heat soaks.
Appreciate 0
      12-29-2015, 09:58 PM   #15
Die ///M Rakete
Captain
Die ///M Rakete's Avatar
United_States
671
Rep
846
Posts

Drives: 2016 F80 ZCP 6MT
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Dallas, TX

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bee Pee View Post
Given that M2 uses same IC as m235i you will be fine with OE IC.
The M2 uses an "over-boost" function, clearly indicating that its borrowed M235i FMIC is already very close to its thermal limits. I would say that anything beyond a mild tune will necessitate a FMIC upgrade for any type of real duty beyond the occasional street romp.
Appreciate 0
      12-30-2015, 02:57 AM   #16
Bee Pee
Brigadier General
United Kingdom
1738
Rep
4,496
Posts

Drives: AW M2 DCT
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: SW London

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Die ///M Rakete View Post
The M2 uses an "over-boost" function, clearly indicating that its borrowed M235i FMIC is already very close to its thermal limits.
Not sure I understand your logic. Why does a 360bhp n55 m car with over boost mean that m235i FMIC is close to its limits ?
__________________
Fettled M135i EB AT - gone but not forgotten:
AW M2 DCT
Appreciate 1
      12-30-2015, 10:37 AM   #17
Die ///M Rakete
Captain
Die ///M Rakete's Avatar
United_States
671
Rep
846
Posts

Drives: 2016 F80 ZCP 6MT
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Dallas, TX

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bee Pee View Post
Not sure I understand your logic. Why does a 360bhp n55 m car with over boost mean that m235i FMIC is close to its limits ?
The M2 and the M235i share the same intercooler. That intercooler has a little bit of headroom in the M235i application but not much. BMW upped the boost on the M2's N55B30TO but couldn't up it much without heat-soaking the intercooler. The solution? Not replace it with a bigger or more efficient intercooler...that would cost money

That's where the over-boost function comes in by only applying that bit of extra boost BMW needed to hit its performance targets (i.e., make the M2 competitive with its contemporary German rivals) only momentarily and mitigating the chance for the intercooler to heat-soak.

What this all means is that the stock M235i/M2 FMIC lacks much headroom (then again, so might the turbo!) and anything beyond a mild tune will heat-soak it when pressed hard. Want to live in the 400hp+ range happily? Upgrade
Appreciate 0
      12-30-2015, 11:55 AM   #18
Bee Pee
Brigadier General
United Kingdom
1738
Rep
4,496
Posts

Drives: AW M2 DCT
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: SW London

iTrader: (3)

Ok - I think we are on the same page as I'm at low 400's Bhp on OE FMIC and it works fine but if I went further with more power ie north of 450 then I would upgrade.
__________________
Fettled M135i EB AT - gone but not forgotten:
AW M2 DCT
Appreciate 0
      12-30-2015, 02:24 PM   #19
Jeff@TopGearSolutions
Jeff@TopGearSolutions's Avatar
United_States
3441
Rep
79,212
Posts

Drives: C6 Z06, 09 335i, 10 335xi
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: www.TopGearSolutions.com

iTrader: (37)

When you guys say you are fine, what are your intake temps?

If they are more then 20 degress above ambient, you need an upgrade.

Stock intercooler is pretty bad, even on stock boost.
Appreciate 0
      12-30-2015, 04:51 PM   #20
ocN55
Lieutenant Colonel
ocN55's Avatar
United_States
559
Rep
1,503
Posts

Drives: '15 M235i 6MT/ '16 M3
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: LA

iTrader: (18)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff@TopGearSolutions View Post
Stock intercooler is pretty bad, even on stock boost.
HAHA, this isn't an N54. The ER intercooler was the last thing I did, and I only did it so that I can be FBO. Another member here was on a Stage 2 turbo making 500+whp on stock IC. You don't need the intercooler unless you are boosting a lot and tracking. Sorry, I hate any vendor that upsells.
__________________
FBO M235i r
F80 M3
Appreciate 0
      12-30-2015, 05:25 PM   #21
Bee Pee
Brigadier General
United Kingdom
1738
Rep
4,496
Posts

Drives: AW M2 DCT
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: SW London

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff@TopGearSolutions View Post
Stock intercooler is pretty bad, even on stock boost.
From my experience so far, you are wrong
__________________
Fettled M135i EB AT - gone but not forgotten:
AW M2 DCT
Appreciate 0
      12-31-2015, 10:47 AM   #22
ohohoh123456
First Lieutenant
ohohoh123456's Avatar
113
Rep
303
Posts

Drives: 2020 M4
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: IL

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ocN55 View Post
HAHA, this isn't an N54. The ER intercooler was the last thing I did, and I only did it so that I can be FBO. Another member here was on a Stage 2 turbo making 500+whp on stock IC. You don't need the intercooler unless you are boosting a lot and tracking. Sorry, I hate any vendor that upsells.
I've been seeing FBO a lot, what does it mean exactly?
__________________
2020 M4 Heritage Edition///Velvet Blue
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:29 PM.




2addicts
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST