[MagnetarSplatter]

I’m in the process of gathering all my parts to go Stage2+ and the downpipe has been such a difficult choice. I’m definitely going to go catted, don’t want to have to swap pipes for my emissions testing (Texas) and my OCD can’t handle CELS so what are my options?

For a little more context here’s what I have sitting in the garage as of now:
‘16 M235i Auto RWD Factory Optioned w/M Perf Exhaust and M Perf LSD
MST Intake
Evolution Racewerks Chargepipe, FMIC, Turbo Intercooler Pipe
Bootmod3 - Prob gonna use an OTS and get a Cary Jordan Map as well

Additional mods I’m considering (input welcome):
Downpipe as indicated by this thread
Pure Stage 2 or Big Boost Kit
Turbo Inlet Pipe
XDI or B58 HPFP

All pump gas and maybe meth injection but would rather not.
Just spirited driving, a few 1/8, 1/4 and half mile events but not trying to set any records or compete against anyone. I just like upgrading my own car and having more power available to me than someone would expect...500hp would be nice.

[mike@x-ph.com]

get the Active Autowerke downpipe, its the only option thats EPA approved, NO CEL guarantee and will pass emission.

[MagnetarSplatter]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

get the Active Autowerke downpipe, its the only option thats EPA approved, NO CEL guarantee and will pass emission.

Ordered from y’all. Looking forward to it. Thanks!

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by MagnetarSplatter

Ordered from y’all. Looking forward to it. Thanks!

Congrats

[XutvJet]

Keep in mind that "EPA Approved" is a bit misleading. It is against federal law to run a lower cell count catalytic system than stock. The cat on the Active Autowerke DP is built to EPA specifications but DOES NOT meet the OEM cell count for the M235. The DME might not throw a code, but the car is emitting more emissions than stock thus quite illegal.

Also, states are required to follow Clean Air Act rules/laws promulgated by EPA and they cannot be less stringent. However, the states are free to make their air emissions laws more stringent than federal law.

So, when AA, or any catted DP maker, says their catted DP is EPA approved, it's really not and still very illegal to run on a public road.

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Keep in mind that "EPA Approved" is a bit misleading. It is against federal law to run a lower cell count catalytic system than stock. The cat on the Active Autowerke DP is built to EPA specifications but DOES NOT meet the OEM cell count for the M235. The DME might not throw a code, but the car is emitting more emissions than stock thus quite illegal.

Also, states are required to follow Clean Air Act rules/laws promulgated by EPA and they cannot be less stringent. However, the states are free to make their air emissions laws more stringent than federal law.

So, when AA, or any catted DP maker, says their catted DP is EPA approved, it's really not and still very illegal to run on a public road.

What you stated about the downpipe being illegal is not true. Just because the downpipe flows more air than OEM does not mean its illegal.

Every Active downpipe come with EPA number which means it is 100% legal to use on emission controlled vehicles (except CARB states).

[XutvJet]

Federal law and every state law prohibits the tampering of an emissions control device. You can use aftermarket parts to make repairs but that means the parts must meet OEM specifications. You cannot legally add a cat with a fewer cell count than stock as it does not meet OEM specs. The factory cat is comprised of two 300 cell units. The AA catted DP uses a single 300 cell unit.

It appears that you may not understand AA's marketing jargon. They state that the GESI cat used in their pipe is 49-state EPA legal and they quote "EPA N/GBL/4389/1119" which apparantly alludes to some standard or reg? I could not find this standard or reg online. I'm an environmental consultant and work in compliance (typically negotiating and litigating against EPA and state DNRs). GESI states that its cats are EPA "verified" (whatever that means) but they provide no further information. Now if the AA DP utilized two 300 cell units, then it would be legal.

I'm not debating the ethics of installing a catted DP. But I ask you this, would you be willing to hang your hat on AA's claim that the DP they're selling is truly 49-state legal if EPA comes knocking at your door? Currently, willful Clean Air Act violations have a potential civil penalty of $37,500/day. As a business marketing their products, you could get pulled into it if they were to go after AA. Fabspeed catted DPs (200 cell unit) use nicer and higher quality HJS cats that very rarely throw codes and you don't see Fabspeed marketing them as 49 state legal. The HJS Euro 6 DP (300 cell unit) isn't marketed as such either.

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Federal law and every state law prohibits the tampering of an emissions control device. You can use aftermarket parts to make repairs but that means the parts must meet OEM specifications. You cannot legally add a cat with a fewer cell count than stock as it does not meet OEM specs. The factory cat is comprised of two 300 cell units. The AA catted DP uses a single 300 cell unit.

It appears that you may not understand AA's marketing jargon. They state that the GESI cat used in their pipe is 49-state EPA legal and they quote "EPA N/GBL/4389/1119" which apparantly alludes to some standard or reg? I could not find this standard or reg online. I'm an environmental consultant and work in compliance (typically negotiating and litigating against EPA and state DNRs). GESI states that its cats are EPA "verified" (whatever that means) but they provide no further information. Now if the AA DP utilized two 300 cell units, then it would be legal.

I'm not debating the ethics of installing a catted DP. But I ask you this, would you be willing to hang your hat on AA's claim that the DP they're selling is truly 49-state legal if EPA comes knocking at your door? Currently, willful Clean Air Act violations have a potential civil penalty of $37,500/day. As a business marketing their products, you could get pulled into it if they were to go after AA. Fabspeed catted DPs (200 cell unit) use nicer and higher quality HJS cats that very rarely throw codes and you don't see Fabspeed marketing them as 49 state legal. The HJS Euro 6 DP (300 cell unit) isn't marketed as such either.

im going to ask Active Autowerke to chime in on this thread with more info on the GESI cats the EPA approval number.

If they confirm your last post, i completely agree with you about needing to change the way its advertised.

[MagnetarSplatter]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

im going to ask Active Autowerke to chime in on this thread with more info on the GESI cats the EPA approval number.

If they confirm your last post, i completely agree with you about needing to change the way its advertised.

Appreciate it, I would just like to be fully informed.

[Joaco135]

[nioh_lbbm2]

@XutvJet is correct

To be fully legal and compliant with the install of an aftermarket catalytic converter the shop doing the installation must get approval from the local governing body (CARB, EPA, etc) and provide documented reasoning for the replacement which then must be kept for a set amount of years. There is a whole slew of laws for installing cats and be 100% legal. It will be very very very difficult to technically be legal to replace cats on such new vehicles such as the ones on this board which already have a warranty through BMW if it legitimately did need replacement due to defect.

So although the AA down pipe uses a cat that has a certain EPA approval it is only in regards to specifications for the construction/efficacy of the CAT CORE itself as a stand-alone component of the entire downpipe.

It is definitely not a legal pass just to say the entire downpipe is "EPA approved" and use that as an all encompassing stamp of approval to let anyone install onto their car on a whim.



Now be that as it may, anyone can do what they want and although might not be 100% ethical they can still pass exhaust inspections/tests which may or may not be completely thorough. Just wanted to expand on what XutvJet was saying in regards to some back marketing jargon from AA to include that bit.
He is also correct about definitely needing to install OEM spec cats but if the local governing body approves a certain cat core as a replacement then it is ok too. But all this requires prior documented approval.

[David@ActiveAutowerke]

Hey all, this is the information we have, directly from GESI regarding this situation.

A) Federal law prohibits the tampering of an emissions control device. Mobile Source Enforcement Memorandum 1A, allows for aftermarket parts to be used in the repair or replacement of emissions control systems, provided the emissions aren’t adversely affected. There is no mention or reference to cell density or converter volume dimension. The GESI catalytic converter will produce produce emissions that will meet the standards set by the EPA, not CARB.

B) N/GBL/4389/1119 is not a standard or regulation. EPA requires GESI to mark every verified unit with the following: N (New) GBL: GESI’s Manufacturer Code / 4389 is the part number registered with the EPA / 1119: Manufacturing Month and Year. We can correctly claim that this specific technology has met test protocol 40CFR86, and has been verified by a third party laboratory, and most importantly has been registered with the EPA.

As an FYI GESI coating technology has also achieved a EURO6 standard.

Source Enforcement Memorandum 1A can be viewed here: https://afdc.energy.gov/files/pdfs/2753.pdf

[MagnetarSplatter]

Originally Posted by David@ActiveAutowerke

Hey all, this is the information we have, directly from GESI regarding this situation.

A) Federal law prohibits the tampering of an emissions control device. Mobile Source Enforcement Memorandum 1A, allows for aftermarket parts to be used in the repair or replacement of emissions control systems, provided the emissions aren’t adversely affected. There is no mention or reference to cell density or converter volume dimension. The GESI catalytic converter will produce produce emissions that will meet the standards set by the EPA, not CARB.

B) N/GBL/4389/1119 is not a standard or regulation. EPA requires GESI to mark every verified unit with the following: N (New) GBL: GESI’s Manufacturer Code / 4389 is the part number registered with the EPA / 1119: Manufacturing Month and Year. We can correctly claim that this specific technology has met test protocol 40CFR86, and has been verified by a third party laboratory, and most importantly has been registered with the EPA.

As an FYI GESI coating technology has also achieved a EURO6 standard.

Source Enforcement Memorandum 1A can be viewed here: https://afdc.energy.gov/files/pdfs/2753.pdf

I appreciate your reply but I’m not sure how to interpret this completely. I THINK you are saying that Federal law allows for replacement of OEM emissions control devices IF they meet the EPA standard of the OE?

In the most simple terms: is the DP “legal” on my M235i or is there a potential for fines?

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by MagnetarSplatter

I appreciate your reply but I’m not sure how to interpret this completely. I THINK you are saying that Federal law allows for replacement of OEM emissions control devices IF they meet the EPA standard of the OE?

In the most simple terms: is the DP “legal” on my M235i or is there a potential for fines?

Installing an aftermarket DP with a reduced cell count is technically illegal unless you can prove that the replacement cat meets OEM specs. Seeing that BMW uses a dual 300 cell cat system as stock and most aftermarket catted DP systems use single 200-300 cell cats, I have a very hard time believing these aftermarket cat manufacteruers have figured out how to make a 200-300 cell cat treat emissions as effectively as a OEM 600 cell cat.

I have no doubt that the GESI 300 cell cat used on the AA DP is legal/approved by EPA but I do not believe the AA catted DP is EPA and 49 state legal because it is running half the amount of emissions treating cataylist.

AA seems to be relying on GESI information as their basis for determining the legality of their system. That's a dangerous path and assumption as ignorance is not a defense, especially in EPA's eyes.

I do not see EPA or a state going after someone like you or me that installs a catted DP other than maybe giving them a fix it ticket. Though I could see EPA going after the aftermarket company that made the part and the vendor if they are claiming that the part is emissions legal. Even then, it would likely start out with a cease/desist letter and not a penalty unless they were in a bad mood from the start. This is all based on my professional experience. EPA lit companies up for waste management/disposal back in the 1980s and 1990s. Now they are focused on air and water. I think AA makes quality products but I do feel they are misguided on this particular legality claim and it could potentially get them in trouble as well as their vendors. It is not the heat you want; having EPA show up, inspect, and ask for documents. If they find other things during their investigation they deem as violations, it's open season. If I were AA, I'd revise the claims to closely match those used by Fabspeed regarding their catted DPs and definitely not say that their catted DP EPA and 49 state legal unless they can prove it themselves with engineering and analytical testing documentation.

[Black Sunshine]

To say a catalytic converter is 49 state legal is both true and false. California requires CARB certified cats and a bunch of other hoops to replace a cats. Some states have adopted the CARB requirement also, if the vehicle was originally listed as being California emissions certified, or something to that effect. It looks like the OP is in Texas, so they should be fine. There is also older documention from the EPA that basically states under no circumstances can you change or modify your factory converter if it is in good working condition and under 80k miles. In regards to a 200 cell cat performing as well as a 600 cell. There are multiple materials that can be used for the substrate. The EPA simply states that a cat meets the minimum requirements of pollution outputted. It is not to say that the 600 may allow less pollution, only that the 200 meets the minimum requirements.

[David@ActiveAutowerke]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Installing an aftermarket DP with a reduced cell count is technically illegal unless you can prove that the replacement cat meets OEM specs. Seeing that BMW uses a dual 300 cell cat system as stock and most aftermarket catted DP systems use single 200-300 cell cats, I have a very hard time believing these aftermarket cat manufacteruers have figured out how to make a 200-300 cell cat treat emissions as effectively as a OEM 600 cell cat.

I have no doubt that the GESI 300 cell cat used on the AA DP is legal/approved by EPA but I do not believe the AA catted DP is EPA and 49 state legal because it is running half the amount of emissions treating cataylist.

AA seems to be relying on GESI information as their basis for determining the legality of their system. That's a dangerous path and assumption as ignorance is not a defense, especially in EPA's eyes.

I do not see EPA or a state going after someone like you or me that installs a catted DP other than maybe giving them a fix it ticket. Though I could see EPA going after the aftermarket company that made the part and the vendor if they are claiming that the part is emissions legal. Even then, it would likely start out with a cease/desist letter and not a penalty unless they were in a bad mood from the start. This is all based on my professional experience. EPA lit companies up for waste management/disposal back in the 1980s and 1990s. Now they are focused on air and water. I think AA makes quality products but I do feel they are misguided on this particular legality claim and it could potentially get them in trouble as well as their vendors. It is not the heat you want; having EPA show up, inspect, and ask for documents. If they find other things during their investigation they deem as violations, it's open season. If I were AA, I'd revise the claims to closely match those used by Fabspeed regarding their catted DPs and definitely not say that their catted DP EPA and 49 state legal unless they can prove it themselves with engineering and analytical testing documentation.

Thanks for your input. Have you seen/used a Gesi cat before?