[selmeralto]

Originally Posted by eflatminor

Already installed the Bavsound Ghost replacement woofers (can't really call them 'subs'). It helped improve the sound, but I suspect better low frequency articulation with the new amp. We'll see...

Can you say a bit more about the difference the woofers make, maybe mentioning a piece or two of music where you really noticed a difference.

Selmeralto would appreciate the advice of Eb-.

[eflatminor]

Originally Posted by selmeralto

Can you say a bit more about the difference the woofers make, maybe mentioning a piece or two of music where you really noticed a difference.

Selmeralto would appreciate the advice of Eb-.

Sure. The Ghost woofers are the only change I've made thus far. The installation was pretty easy. You just unbolt the seats, lean them back, unscrew the grill cover and then swap the speakers.

Sound wise, the new woofers immediately fixed a GLARING problem with the stock system, which was a complete and total disconnect between the lower frequencies the 4" OEM speakers can produce, and where the stock woofers begin to kick in. Basically, there is a gap of 'nothing' between the two, which leaves out a lot of the music and eliminates the impact the lower frequencies can produce, particularly with powerful music.

Stated differently, the stock system has a huge dip in the frequency spectrum between the 4" speakers and the woofer.

The Ghost woofers from Bavsound fixed that immediately. Much more impact and a seamless transition between speakers. At least now I'm hearing the full spectrum and experiencing reasonable impact/fullness with large scale music.

The bass response is still less-than-perfect, even with acoustic jazz and other non-bass-crazy music. My hope is that the new bimmertech amp will tighten up the bottom end and produce better articulation of subtle LF detail and a "tighter" control over rock-like bass.

[selmeralto]

Originally Posted by eflatminor

Sure. The Ghost woofers are the only change I've made thus far. The installation was pretty easy. You just unbolt the seats, lean them back, unscrew the grill cover and then swap the speakers.

Sound wise, the new woofers immediately fixed a GLARING problem with the stock system, which was a complete and total disconnect between the lower frequencies the 4" OEM speakers can produce, and where the stock woofers begin to kick in. Basically, there is a gap of 'nothing' between the two, which leaves out a lot of the music and eliminates the impact the lower frequencies can produce, particularly with powerful music.

Stated differently, the stock system has a huge dip in the frequency spectrum between the 4" speakers and the woofer.

The Ghost woofers from Bavsound fixed that immediately. Much more impact and a seamless transition between speakers. At least now I'm hearing the full spectrum and experiencing reasonable impact/fullness with large scale music.

The bass response is still less-than-perfect, even with acoustic jazz and other non-bass-crazy music. My hope is that the new bimmertech amp will tighten up the bottom end and produce better articulation of subtle LF detail and a "tighter" control over rock-like bass.

That's great. Thanks.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by eflatminor

Sure. The Ghost woofers are the only change I've made thus far. The installation was pretty easy. You just unbolt the seats, lean them back, unscrew the grill cover and then swap the speakers.

Sound wise, the new woofers immediately fixed a GLARING problem with the stock system, which was a complete and total disconnect between the lower frequencies the 4" OEM speakers can produce, and where the stock woofers begin to kick in. Basically, there is a gap of 'nothing' between the two, which leaves out a lot of the music and eliminates the impact the lower frequencies can produce, particularly with powerful music.

Stated differently, the stock system has a huge dip in the frequency spectrum between the 4" speakers and the woofer.

The Ghost woofers from Bavsound fixed that immediately. Much more impact and a seamless transition between speakers. At least now I'm hearing the full spectrum and experiencing reasonable impact/fullness with large scale music.

The bass response is still less-than-perfect, even with acoustic jazz and other non-bass-crazy music. My hope is that the new bimmertech amp will tighten up the bottom end and produce better articulation of subtle LF detail and a "tighter" control over rock-like bass.

I'm not surprised at that frequency gap, and it's part of the reason I recommend replacing drivers before the amp. Full-range drivers of the OEM units' quality and magnet size just can't do much with frequencies below 250Hz or so.

selmeralto (and others who have upgraded the door and rear deck drivers): It's likely that that 'gap' no longer exists -- or is very small -- in your cars since the woofers on good coaxials can generally reach down to roughly 120Hz before the dropoff in bass response becomes a freefall. That said, a good mid-bass or bass driver (not necessarily a dedicated sub) that can get down to 60Hz or so with minimal dropoff should fill out the bottom end nicely in our cars. It sounds like the Ghost units do this.

[selmeralto]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

selmeralto (and others who have upgraded the door and rear deck drivers): It's likely that that 'gap' no longer exists -- or is very small -- in your cars since the woofers on good coaxials can generally reach down to roughly 120Hz before the dropoff in bass response becomes a freefall. That said, a good mid-bass or bass driver (not necessarily a dedicated sub) that can get down to 60Hz or so with minimal dropoff should fill out the bottom end nicely in our cars. It sounds like the Ghost units do this.

Point taken. My system is sounding a lot better. If I have time and inclination later in the summer I might go for the woofers. In the meantime I can listen to the music and enjoy it.

[barfastic]

so i got in touch with a local car audio shop here regarding the focals, and they counter suggested a set by MTX the TX6 to be exact. its a three way component (8inch sub, 4 inch mid and 1 inch tweeter). price wise they are about 250 euros cheaper than buying the focal comp. and 2 subs.

looking up for more information, it seems they are rated at a higher rms value, and provide a larger range of freq than the focals (mtx = 23hz to 25khz and the focal 25hz to 23khz).

does anyone have any feedback regarding this set? here in greece they are considered quality speakers and a few years back in another car i had 2 10" subs in the trunk that were immaculate.

thoughts?

m

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by barfastic

so i got in touch with a local car audio shop here regarding the focals, and they counter suggested a set by MTX the TX6 to be exact. its a three way component (8inch sub, 4 inch mid and 1 inch tweeter). price wise they are about 250 euros cheaper than buying the focal comp. and 2 subs.

looking up for more information, it seems they are rated at a higher rms value, and provide a larger range of freq than the focals (mtx = 23hz to 25khz and the focal 25hz to 23khz).

does anyone have any feedback regarding this set? here in greece they are considered quality speakers and a few years back in another car i had 2 10" subs in the trunk that were immaculate.

thoughts?

m

I'm not a fan of MTX. It's claim to fame is square flat-membrane subwoofers, which have inherent design flaws, IMHO. Anything else it makes under the MTX brand is relatively low quality and budget-minded. Besides, your shop is wrong: the TX6 is a 6.5-inch design, and MTX does not make a 4-inch component. It won't fit the doors ...

... and I just took a peek at its 4-inch Thunder coaxial, the only speaker of that size it appears to offer. Red flags galore. Don't bother, particularly if you ever think you'll add an aftermarket amp. Why? They only handle 35W RMS. The Match amp that Bimmertech uses, by comparison, puts out 55W RMS. You will blow them. By comparison, the Focal ISC 100 coaxial handles 40W RMS but can take regular 80-watt peaks, which is fine to match with the Match in the rear.

As for Focal components ... the ISN 100 is probably your best bet. But please take a look at this spec sheet. Note that there's a low-mid hump between 160 and 180Hz, after which the rolloff is fairly drastic: 3db (which is half volume) by 130db or so. This is very typical of Focal wide-range woofers: a very pronounced mid-bass hump, after which the bottom disappears. Basically, Focals must be run with a really good larger bass woofer or sub to work well.

[barfastic]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

I'm not a fan of MTX. It's claim to fame is square flat-membrane subwoofers, which have inherent design flaws, IMHO. Anything else it makes under the MTX brand is relatively low quality and budget-minded. Besides, your shop is wrong: the TX6 is a 6.5-inch design, and MTX does not make a 4-inch component. It won't fit the doors ...

... and I just took a peek at its 4-inch Thunder coaxial, the only speaker of that size it appears to offer. Red flags galore. Don't bother, particularly if you ever think you'll add an aftermarket amp. Why? They only handle 35W RMS. The Match amp that Bimmertech uses, by comparison, puts out 55W RMS. You will blow them. By comparison, the Focal ISC 100 coaxial handles 40W RMS but can take regular 80-watt peaks, which is fine to match with the Match in the rear.

As for Focal components ... the ISN 100 is probably your best bet. But please take a look at this spec sheet. Note that there's a low-mid hump between 160 and 180Hz, after which the rolloff is fairly drastic: 3db (which is half volume) by 130db or so. This is very typical of Focal wide-range woofers: a very pronounced mid-bass hump, after which the bottom disappears. Basically, Focals must be run with a really good larger bass woofer or sub to work well.

Thanks for all the info.... but i think you didnt find the right speaker set.

I am talking about this set:
http://www.mtxaudio.eu/products/cara...pk/item/tx6bmw

Specifications :

RMS Power : 150W
Max Power : 450W
Impedance : 4Ω
Frequency response : 23Hz - 25kHz
Sensitivity : 93,5 dB/2,83v/1m
Tweeter diameter : 25mm (1'')
Midrange diameter : 10cm (4")
Woofer diameter : 20cm (8")

Im guessing the rms power is for all three drivers... and the focals come out to about the same if you get the woofers and the comps. no?

I know focals are the epitomy of quality, im just asking if for a 250euro discount if the MTX are worth looking at.

Looking forward to your feedback once again

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by barfastic

Thanks for all the info.... but i think you didnt find the right speaker set.

I am talking about this set:
http://www.mtxaudio.eu/products/cara...pk/item/tx6bmw

Specifications :

RMS Power : 150W
Max Power : 450W
Impedance : 4Ω
Frequency response : 23Hz - 25kHz
Sensitivity : 93,5 dB/2,83v/1m
Tweeter diameter : 25mm (1'')
Midrange diameter : 10cm (4")
Woofer diameter : 20cm (8")

Im guessing the rms power is for all three drivers... and the focals come out to about the same if you get the woofers and the comps. no?

I know focals are the epitomy of quality, im just asking if for a 250euro discount if the MTX are worth looking at.

Looking forward to your feedback once again

Interesting.

Point 1: MTX Audio is an American company, yet it does not offer this BMW-specific speaker set in the U.S. In light of this, I guess most speaker manufacturers who have developed a BMW-specific drop-in speaker set --Eton, MB Quart, Match, Jehnert, a few others -- deem Europe the only worthwhile market for this kind of product. I find that very curious.

Point 2: There aren't specific specifications for each type of speaker. That makes things like that power rating and the sensitivity rating absolutely useless. And that frequency response range includes low-end dropoff and high-end emission, so it's useless, too.

Point 3: The speakers are made of pretty decent materials, as best I can tell -- and the soft silk dome tweeter won't be nearly as harsh as the Focals' inverted aluminum domes.

Point 4: MTX recommends that this speaker set be run with an aftermarket amp that outputs as much as 50W per channel RMS. Both are good signs.

Point 5: (THE MOST IMPORTANT ONE): The F22 and F23 are NOT listed as compatible models for the set.

If I were really dead-set against the Focals, I'd think about trying these and pairing them with the JL Audios - but only after I double checked F22 compatibility (either Hi-Fi or HK) with the manufacturer. Remember: our system is drastically different than other BMW models', likely because of these reasons:

HK: Lack of Logic7, subwoofers that run at 8 ohms in parallel
Hi-Fi: Lack of power per channel, lack of decent tone controls, a relatively obtrusive DSP, subwoofers that run at 2 ohms in series

[barfastic]

Mike thanks for the insightful response.

I too am discouraged by the lack of information provided and some of the points you raise yourself.

It seems the focals are going to be my choice, as we cant get any of the other brands locally.

[Grave]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

Interesting.

Point 5: (THE MOST IMPORTANT ONE): The F22 and F23 are NOT listed as compatible models for the set.

Speakers are older than F22 but F21 is listed as compatible.

F21 is BMW One three doors and has exactly the same doors and inside front aspect that F22 so it's not a pb.

@ Barfastic if you really want MTX, you can try Extremeaudio.de they are serious and can send material worldwide

[rlinden]

Would the Focal Ifbmwc be a speaker option or is the Isc-100 the only Focal that would work in the 2 series HiFi ? If the Ifbmwc is an option for front speakers, any less costly option for the rear speaker ?

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by rlinden

Would the Focal Ifbmwc be a speaker option or is the Isc-100 the only Focal that would work in the 2 series HiFi ? If the Ifbmwc is an option for front speakers, any less costly option for the rear speaker ?

The IFBMW-C is a slightly higher-quality coaxial than the ISC 100, but the differences are slight beyond the plug-and-play aspect. The ISC handles a tad more power (50w RMS/100w peak) than the IFBMW (40/80) and it features a built-in crossover (the one for the IFBMW-C set is part of the wiring), but again; those differences are not tremendous.

Either will work fine, though I'd definitely power either with an aftermarket amp and run them with upgraded subs.

[rlinden]

So with my budget limit I am thinking of disconnecting center speaker and replacing four speakers but not changing amp or subwoofers. DanG reports a satisfactory result doing this with 4 Focal Isc 100. It sounds like Ifbmw-c speakers are twice the cost but outside of plug and play compatibility do not offer much difference in quality. Also would need less expensive rear speakers that would be ok with the front Focal. Is their any problem with the size/depth of the Ifbmw-c in the 2 series ? Any alternate co-axials to consider with these constraints ?

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by rlinden

So with my budget limit I am thinking of disconnecting center speaker and replacing four speakers but not changing amp or subwoofers. DanG reports a satisfactory result doing this with 4 Focal Isc 100. It sounds like Ifbmw-c speakers are twice the cost but outside of plug and play compatibility do not offer much difference in quality. Also would need less expensive rear speakers that would be ok with the front Focal. Is their any problem with the size/depth of the Ifbmw-c in the 2 series ? Any alternate co-axials to consider with these constraints ?

If you go with Focals in the front, I would seriously not use another brand in the rear. Focals have a distinct-enough voicing that mixing another brand in would likely affect clarity, particularly in the treble range.

If the IFBMW-C fits the F30, it'll fit the F22. Available mounting depth in the doors is the same (@52mm).

If I were in your boat and dead set on Focals, i'd mount ISC 100s all around and use a ring adapter for the fronts. You're not gaining twice the quality by upgrading to the IFBMW-Cs; you're gaining ease of installation, a few cheap tools, a replaceable crossover, and an alloy tweeter instead of an aluminum-coated one. Not worth it, IMHO.

[rlinden]

After 500 miles with the HiFi system I was ready to give up listening to music. Went to experienced audio shop in Huntington Beach, and as the Focal ISC 100s had not arrived, was offered a good price on Focal Access 100ACs. Installation was about 1 1/2 hours, including their making spacers for the front speakers. I was watching the installation, but by late morning the waft from the next door In-n-Out overwhelmed me, and they were done by the time I had a Double Double. Sound is a great improvement. Have been listening to a familiar CD of acoustic bass, guitar and dobro "Skip, Hop, and Wobble" and sounds great. So the Access 100ACs are another speaker to consider for upgrade.

[marcelo929]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

If you go with Focals in the front, I would seriously not use another brand in the rear. Focals have a distinct-enough voicing that mixing another brand in would likely affect clarity, particularly in the treble range.

If the IFBMW-C fits the F30, it'll fit the F22. Available mounting depth in the doors is the same (@52mm).

If I were in your boat and dead set on Focals, i'd mount ISC 100s all around and use a ring adapter for the fronts. You're not gaining twice the quality by upgrading to the IFBMW-Cs; you're gaining ease of installation, a few cheap tools, a replaceable crossover, and an alloy tweeter instead of an aluminum-coated one. Not worth it, IMHO.

After reading most of the audio section and the vast knowledge you have offered everyone, I'm thinking of doing ISC 100s all around.

I just want to make sure I get a proper set up so that I'm not upgrading later on again. I'm fine with doing an amp($500ish?) and maybe speakers in the $400-$500 max p/pair range if it's going to be "that much better". If not, I'll just stick to dropping in the ISC 100s and call it a day. Any recommendations?

It's been a while since I bought car audio, but music is important to me and I don't mind spending a bit more on it.

[530iAndroid]

I just took delivery of my F22 with HiFi and can already tell that unless I do something about this sound system I will never want to listen to music in it again.

My only experience with Focals is a demo of their HT speakers before purchasing my BW’s. And I couldn’t stand the Focals because I felt like the highs were ear splitting. It is something that others have expressed about Focals as well and I am wondering how the solutions to the F22 suggested in the forums compare to other options like the BavSound Stage One.

I want more detail in the mids as opposed to harsh highs accompanied with too much deep bass. I am someone’s who typically turns down the treble a couple of notches even on my stock BMW system as my ears find th highs very unpleasant.

Any input is much appreciated as I need to narrow down my choices via process of elimination as I am overwhelmed by the options.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by 530iAndroid

I just took delivery of my F22 with HiFi and can already tell that unless I do something about this sound system I will never want to listen to music in it again.

My only experience with Focals is a demo of their HT speakers before purchasing my BW's. And I couldn't stand the Focals because I felt like the highs were ear splitting. It is something that others have expressed about Focals as well and I am wondering how the solutions to the F22 suggested in the forums compare to other options like the BavSound Stage One.

I want more detail in the mids as opposed to harsh highs accompanied with too much deep bass. I am someone's who typically turns down the treble a couple of notches even on my stock BMW system as my ears find th highs very unpleasant.

Any input is much appreciated as I need to narrow down my choices via process of elimination as I am overwhelmed by the options.

A quick response, since I'm on vacation: Look for anything with fabric dome tweeters. Off the top of my head, JL Audio and Morel will be good choices for what you're looking for.

[tennisfreak]

HiFi system sucks big time, it made me hate being in my car.

I've been running the BavSound speakers (full set including subs) for a few weeks now and have been very happy with them so far.

So much more dynamic range has been added and the bass is very subtle and smooth.

[VPB74]

So, after reading all these posts and several other threads, I am thinking of doing the following to my HIFI system. Replace the amp with a Bimmertech unit, add Eton B100 W speakers in the doors and retrofit HK tweeter sail panels in the front doors to make these work. Replace the rears with JL Audio C2-400x, and maybe add the Ghost units. Any thoughts on this?

[Legal Bill]

I still need to disable the center speaker. After adding the Bavsound door and rear speakers, the center speaker often sounds like an echo or a reverb.