[Zooks527]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

Despite the experience of Zooks527 I don't see a huge issue with swapping the OEM amp back in if an ECU reflash is required. As others have noted, it's not a common occurrence, and to date no one else has had that happen. Integration-wise, it could be a LOT worse. Just keep the OEM amp, folks!

Nor do I have an issue with it. I've got pulling the trunk liner down to 10 minutes, and only 15 minutes to get it back together. For the rare occurrence of an ECU flash, I'm good with that.

[JohnnyCanuck]

Viffermike, I wasn't suggesting that he didn't have a point, but don't agree with his over reliance on DSP.

I completely agree that any 20K system can be made to sound like crap and a 2K system can be made to sound damn good. Your point about the HK system itself is completely valid.

Where I have an issue is the same place MASH65 did, the claim that the DSP is the first and best solution to an audio problem. He reported huge gains with speakers, crossovers, and amplification ... without any DSP. To my way of thinking, that is the much preferred method and DSP should only be used to the degree necessary to improve on what can be accomplished through components. I don't agree with Nelson at all on what he seems to be saying: the amplification with DSP can overcome poor speakers and non-existent or poor crossovers.

Lastly, anyone who wants to convince me they're right by showing their trophy case is obviously not all that convinced of what they're saying themselves. For the times they were active on these forums, you never saw Technic or Musicarnw do that.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck

ViffermikeHe reported huge gains with speakers, crossovers, and amplification ... without any DSP. To my way of thinking, that is the much preferred method and DSP should only be used to the degree necessary to improve on what can be accomplished through components. I don't agree with Nelson at all on what he seems to be saying: the amplification with DSP can overcome poor speakers and non-existent or poor crossovers.

Aaaaah. Yes, I agree -- again, to an extent. DSP actually can help poor speakers sound better. In fact, that's partially what BMW's aim is with the stock DSP: to keep the highs and lows minimized so the stock drivers don't blow or distort. This is particularly important with low-bitrate digital programming, which is already compressed in those areas. You can't boost what's not quite there, after all -- but what's not quite there can definitely overdrive speakers not designed to reproduce that 'what'.

(Also of note: My theory is that this is a major reason why BMW didn't use Logic7 in the 2 Series HK. The drivers simply can't handle the EQ adjustability.)

Can the Bimmertech amp help the OEM drivers sound better? Probably -- but, in the end, negligibly when compared to other options because the OEM speakers are by far the system's weakest link. This is precisely why they need to be upgraded before the amp. Metaphorically, it's like having a 500-hp, 500-ft/lb V8 running through a cat- and muffler-addled exhaust with 2-inch piping and into a transmission that can only handle 300 ft/lbs of torque: Push it too much, and bad things happen.

[djarchow]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

(Also of note: My theory is that this is a major reason why BMW didn't use Logic7 in the 2 Series HK. The drivers simply can't handle the EQ adjustability.)

.

The mids and tweeters used in the 2 series HK system are used on almost all the F/G series cars as well: 1,3,4,6, 7, i, and X. The subwoofer is unique to the 1 and 2 series.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by djarchow

The mids and tweeters used in the 2 series HK system are used on almost all the F/G series cars as well: 1,3,4,6, 7, i, and X. The subwoofer is unique to the 1 and 2 series.

Interesting; didn't realize that (and just verified on realOEM.com). So much for that theory ... and this tells me the cost-cutting on the HK has almost everything to do with the digital-vs.-analog nature of the OEM 2 Series HK amp. Even more reason to get rid of the thing.

[MASHCT]

I quoted Bavsound's price because that's where I first stumbled upon the Bimmertech amp & saw the price. I didn't go to Bimmertech's site to check the price there. Once I decided against it, my research stopped.

Jim

Originally Posted by Zooks527

As you said in another post, "That told me right there, Bavsound just might be _______________. (Fill in the blank with words of your choice.)". Why would you therefore use them as a pricing example?

You can go to the manufacturer's site, where it's $849. Why would you go to someone clearly marking it up well past that? I'm sure I could have found a dealer willing to sell my my car at a premium to MSRP instead of a discount. That doesn't mean I'd use him as the exemplar when discussing the price of the car.

[Zooks527]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

... and this tells me the cost-cutting on the HK has almost everything to do with the digital-vs.-analog nature of the OEM 2 Series HK amp.

Cost cutting for them. For us, ........

[MASHCT]

There is nothing false in my post. People on this site post comments about the difficulties in using & setting up your amp, constantly shout for tunes & still say they don't like the sound of the amp post-tune. That is not false info - the posts are all over the forum. Your reply was wholly unnecessary, as were the pics. You jacked a thread about MY solution to talk about YOUR stuff, your prowess & your trophies.

All of it unnecessary had you read the thread & just moved on.

My post was about MY set up & that I got it to sound great with the speakers I bought & the amp I bought. Also, 100% factual. I didn't compare it to the Bimmertech amp & I didn't say it sounded better (I haven't heard it to know).

I DID say my solution was easy as pie, I am not crying for a tune & I installed an EQ (that does NOT have ANY alternator whine or hiss, so your comments are the false ones on that point) that I've not yet felt the need to use.

And I think my post was pretty damned informative about alternative solutions & how I did the set up. Considering the number of PMs I've received about it & "appreciates", I think I did pretty good.

I am all for car stereo gurus posting in forums to HELP people. Not jack threads bragging about their trophies. A true professional doesn't need to show me his equipment or trophies. For christ's sakes your stupid post takes up an entire page within nothing helpful, my friend.

Jim

Originally Posted by Nelson@BimmerTech

I have absolutely zero problems with negative reviews from real life customers that own or have tested our amp. You haven't. Trust me i've learned how to be thick skinned in here, i usually just ignore most of the false info and keep it moving. Which i was advice to. Why do you think a lot of audio gurus aren't active in these forums...

Although Viffermike has been very critical of our amp he usually post informative posts.

You call that bragging?? I posted our SQ trophies to show you that i was not an average joe in tuning and Brax amps to inform you what kind of products Audiotec-Fischer manufactures since you "never heard of them". Have a GREAT DAY my friend!

[MASHCT]

Thanks Viffermike. You got what I was saying for sure.

By the way - do you recall a post back from 2015 you contributed to about system hiss?? Just an FYI - that post is another reason I knew the hiss I was hearing - but got rid of - was inherent to the system itself, not any upgrades.

I had a lot of posts bookmarked for when I was doing my upgrades. Funny how so many have responses from you in them. LOL

http://www.2addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1181343

As I said, the heart of a great sound system is the music & the listener, period. DSP my a$$. If the listener is moved & is happy... then the music has done its job. Not the system. That's just a means to an end.

And the only "ear" that's necessary is one's own pair. EVERYONE has a golden ear because only they know what sounds good to them.

I get that for many people, attacking a complex, multi-functional DSP can be daunting. So do what I did - don't get one! That's all I was trying to say - and that I found a great solution.

And NO - the Audio Control DQDX does NOT hiss or pick up alternator whine. (Funny how Nelson's feathers get so ruffled when he thinks someone posts false info yet he thinks nothing of doing it... Or I just know how to pick good equipment & install it properly. I'm just playin' with ya, trophy boy!)

Just an aside, though... I love stereo equipment & tweaking it inecessantly. I GEEK OUT over stuff like that. I don't need special listening devices & computers to tell me what I want to hear. That's as golden-eared as you get, folks. And I don't even have any trophies! I got one for my science project in the 4th grade though.

I would have bought a DSP - would have loved the Helix six. But that's for another time. When I am not still stinging from throwing away $875 worth of sh!t OEM "hi-fi" nonsense. (I think it has a DSP in it...LOL) And spending a lot of dough on the mods on my car itself.

No DSP in an orchestra. heh heh That was a good one.

I am so funny....

Jim

Originally Posted by Viffermike

OK, guys, my two cents:

Nelson@BimmerTech : Thanks for the kudos. Seriously: it's really appreciated considering how critical I've been at times.

Tunes can be exceedingly difficult for those without an ear for a number of things: what specific frequencies sound like, timing, knowledge of how sound waves behave when reflected, etc. That's why many Home Theater systems have automated software to achieve a tune (Audyssey is the most popular example of this). It's just too complicated to do unless you have "that ear" and know how to adjust response to suit an environment using both that ear and more objective methods (test tones, listening mics, etc.). Add to that the fact that we all have subjective definitions of what good sound is, which compounds the frustration for many.

The above is one of the many reasons why I personally strive for as even a frequency response as possible with my systems. I've chosen my home speakers (two complete systems), my headphones (I own eight pair), and my source components (two CD components, a Mac Mini running iTunes through BitPerfect and an external DAC, four portable CD players, several DMPs) to be as even and accurate as possible. Why? Two reasons:
- The source material often favors some frequencies over others. Sometimes it's unintentional or part of the 'character' of the recording (examples: Lo-Fi indie rock, classic country), sometimes it's very much on purpose (examples: hip hop, movie soundtracks).
- The knowledge that some programming is going to sound better than other programming with a flat, 'direct' tune.

The second part is important to realize. Any one tune isn't going to make everything sound great, even on a sonically perfect system. Why? Your subjective preferences. I was a professional music critic for eight years. When reviewing a recording, I listened to it in three places before I ever typed a word: headphones, home, car. Why? Music can sound different through different systems and affect its impact for all of the reasons above, and many more.

All that said, in as imperfect an environment as a car interior, accuracy is less important but clarity is more important. That's why I support upgrades that improve clarity -- better speakers, more clean power (to a point), DSP removal, simplicity of signal path. With a clear, flat baseline, everything will sound better overall to most ears. Will it be perfect? No. Nothing will.

MASH65 is going about things the right way, including allowing the speakers to break in (20 hours is generally the point where most speakers have loosened up). However, Nelson@BimmerTech oversimplifies when he states that "The heart of any GREAT sounding system is the DSP". That only applies if the DSP is tuned by someone who knows what they're doing, and can tune to the subjective tastes of the customer/listener as well as the listening environment -- another reason why I advocate a flat, accurate system for most because someone who can do both of those things well is exceedingly rare (Believe me: I know alllll about subjectivity from my critic days, LOL!).

[MASHCT]

DUDE - so glad you got what I was saying too! Awesome!

For a guy who claims to not be bothered by negative reviews & comments, Nelson sure gets his panties in a twist... That he let a guy with such poor ears get on his nerves so bad he felt like he had to put me in his place... LOL What a way to win customers. (And trophies.)

I'm NEVER gonna let him live it down that he posted pics of his equipment & trophies. Never. LOL

Watch this thread. LOL

Jim

Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck

Have to say, this bothered me as much as it bothered MASH65. It's just fundamentally wrong for an assessment of any high end audio, irrespective of whether it's in a car or not. I can't imagine anyone saying anything so silly for home audio ... IMO, it's equally wrongheaded for a statement about car audio. Yes, the car is a very imperfect listening environment and signal processing has a tremendous impact in addressing the shortcomings of a vehicle cabin ... but the idea that it can overcome other elements of the system to the point where it is a superior choice to upgrading the speakers, improving the source quality, etc just doesn't ring true.

As to the statement that a 2K system can sound better than a 20K one is just a red herring. Who knows who did the setup and sometimes a lower priced component is just a remarkable gem (I will put my Audio Refinement by YBA home gear up against products costing hundreds or even a couple of thousand more any day of the week).

What's more bothersome is Nelson@BimmerTech's runaway ego. I'm sorry I didn't train my ear ... WTF does that mean anyway? The post was insulting to those of us who don't think the amp is the starting point, who think selmeralto and Viffermike have a really good handle on this system, and who think that the last piece to worry about is the amp (especially with the ECU flash issue discovered by Zooks527). Not interested in doing business with a trophy case, thank you very much.

[MASHCT]

I never said I tested or heard your amp. I also am not the one who said anything negative. I quoted posts from this very forum. And given your history with jacking threads when folks say something you don't like, yes, yes you do have a problem with negative posts.

And no, Audio Control's equipment - at least the one I have - does not hiss nor pick up alternator whine. So umm.. that would be YOU posting false & erroneous info. Or, I know how to install car stereo equipment better than you since I have no whine or hiss. Shabammalamma ding-dong......

And posting those pics is just so... so ... douchey, dude. Do us all a favor & edit your post & delete the pics so at least the thread isn't as long... sheesh. This thread is not about you. (But since you made it about you, allow me to continue the tradition...)

I imagine conversations in a trophy-winning car installer's life going like this:

Normal Guy: "Hey - what's that trophy you got there buddy? It's nice! Your kid come in second in Little League? I say second because my kid's team won & well... the trophy was bigger. You know how the kids love those trophies!"

Trophy Boy: "Ha! You're funny! No, I got it for my car stereo installation. It was bad ass. You should see the stuff I got in my trunk- I even have a DSP! Costs more than most peoples' houses & sounds WAY better than their wax-stuffed commie pink-o ears can appreciate! Their lives suck so BAD..."

Normal Guy: "You got it for... what? My wax-stuffed pink-o ears didn't quite catch that."

Trophy Boy: "Car stereo & DSPs man! You live under a rock or something? Dude - I am not just some average Joe! This trophy says, I have the authority to tell you what music should sound like in YOUR car to YOUR ears. And if you don't agree, well.. you're a nincompoop! I know... stings right? I mean, coming from me, an award-winning car stereo installer."

(Begins to sing, "I'm Too Sexy" but changes "for this shirt" to "for OEM".)

Normal Guy: "Ummm... you know that the only people who care about your competition car stereo & your trophies are like, well.. hardly anyone - but I guess other people in the car stereo business. Guess it's great to be tops in your little corner of the world & that's great if it helps you sleep at night. I am sleeping really well lately because a doctor saved my dad's life the other day, but he didn't get a trophy. My dad was in New Orleans helping with Katrina relief when a beam fell & crushed his leg."

Trophy Boy: "Well, how does anyone know that doctor is so awesome at what he does & stuff if he doesn't have a trophy?"

Normal Guy: "Because apparently, all the loved ones he's saved got to go home with their families."

Trophy Boy: "To get the trophy for the doctor?! Wait - did your dad get a trophy for helping Katrina? What happened to her?"

Normal Guy:

(Are you getting how funny I am? LOL LOL LOL)

I am sorry I & so many others don't shop for car audio at Douchebagadashery. I guarantee you the vast majority of people in this forum (except for the Europeans) never heard of audiotech-fischer.

Until they got a BMW & searched the forums. And they wanted it because it's plug & play - not because it's "Audiotech Fischer". LOL


Jim

(And no, I am not normal guy & my dad did not go to N.O. But if you want to infer Trophy Boy is someone else in this post, who am I to tell you who you should think it is? I haven't won any trophies for my sense of humor. Far be it from me...)

Originally Posted by Nelson@BimmerTech

I have absolutely zero problems with negative reviews from real life customers that own or have tested our amp. You haven't. Trust me i've learned how to be thick skinned in here, i usually just ignore most of the false info and keep it moving. Which i was advice to. Why do you think a lot of audio gurus aren't active in these forums...

Although Viffermike has been very critical of our amp he usually post informative posts.

You call that bragging?? I posted our SQ trophies to show you that i was not an average joe in tuning and Brax amps to inform you what kind of products Audiotec-Fischer manufactures since you "never heard of them". Have a GREAT DAY my friend!

[Nelson@BimmerTech]

Originally Posted by BentZero

Hey Nelson, this part of what you said is my only issue with going with your amp. When I heard about your product I was actually quite intrigued by it since I'm a tinkerer by nature. However, I don't have a great ear nor the equipment to tune it properly. I also primarily listen to hip hop which doesn't seem to be the norm on this board, so I'm worried that i won't find a tune that works for me at all. Then there's the fact that I live in Charleston, SC where car audio is not really that big, so idk of a shop that I can trust to do the tune for me. A lot of factors, but that said I've not ruled out your amp just yet and I'm not ashamed to say that I'm a bit intimidated by the task. It's one I'm willing to take on, but if I can't get it right that's an expensive lesson to learn.

I also listen to a hip hop, i love BASS! In my personally vehicle i have 4 different tunes. I wanted to create 3-4 tunes for each vehicle but unfortunately i only have these cars for 2-3 hours. That's enough time to create one basic tune. It took me nearly 4 months to find a local 2 series owner that was willing to let me borrow his car.

SQ car audio is big in the Carolinas, mostly North though.
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/...ts-team-diyma/ You won't have an issue finding someone willing to help you tune.

[MASHCT]

Nelson just doesn't listen/get it, does he? Posting more stupid pics of his stupid crap in a thread that isn't about Bimmertech or him...

Sigh...



[QUOTE=Nelson@BimmerTech;19956035]Preset heaven!

[BentZero]

Originally Posted by Nelson@BimmerTech

I also listen to a hip hop, i love BASS! In my personally vehicle i have 4 different tunes. I wanted to create 3-4 tunes for each vehicle but unfortunately i only have these cars for 2-3 hours. That's enough time to create one basic tune. It took me nearly 4 months to find a local 2 series owner that was willing to let me borrow his car.

SQ car audio is big in the Carolinas, mostly North though.
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/...ts-team-diyma/ You won't have an issue finding someone willing to help you tune.

Nelson@BimmerTech

I'll actually be at Disney early next month for a few days. I won't really need my car much. Maybe you can use mine if you guys promise not to drive it around a bunch. Too many horror stories lol. I'd just need a way to work it into my schedule. It's a hi-fi system though. PM me if you're interested. I think I saw that your location is Orlando, Florida. Disregard if that's incorrect haha.