[uberspeed]

Originally Posted by chris719

If it gets loud enough and it's not grossly clipping, you get far more distortion from crappy speakers. The worst modern amplifier will still give you an order of magnitude lower THD than the speakers if it's not clipping. The truism is wrong unless the stock amplifier can't handle the load at the volume levels you want to listen at.

The stock amp didn't have enough oomph for me. I addressed it and am happy with the results, at least for now. I've been tinkering with car audio for a bit over 20 years and in reading countless forums and from hands-on work with various vehicles throughout the years the amp was usually the first thing to replace. Stock amp simply doesn't have the power to properly drive aftermarket speakers. By all means though, try that route and best of luck to you.

Attached is the diagram to the last system I did, nothing nutty but the 13" custom enclosure is quite nice, lots of sound deadening and stock appearance was kept as those are my preferences.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by uberspeed

I've been tinkering with car audio for a bit over 20 years and in reading countless forums and from hands-on work with various vehicles throughout the years the amp was usually the first thing to replace. Stock amp simply doesn't have the power to properly drive aftermarket speakers. By all means though, try that route and best of luck to you.

Attached is the diagram to the last system I did, nothing nutty but the 13" custom enclosure is quite nice, lots of sound deadening and stock appearance was kept as those are my preferences.

uberspeed, with all due respect, a blanket statement such as 'amp first always' ends up being a misnomer for those not willing or wanting to completely re-do a car stereo system. Fact is, if you select aftermarket speakers that are sensitive enough and that will take a relatively low-wattage load, aftermarket speakers can work fine with an OEM amp, including the one in the 2-series.

For most, the best way to upgrade ANY system -- car stereos, home A/V systems, computers, horsepower output, etc. -- is to replace the weakest link first and work up from there. As you know, upgrading any sound system has diminishing returns until that weakest link is replaced. In our cars, the weak link is not the amp; it's the speakers. Once the speakers are upgraded, then the amp and its biases (DSP, ASD, etc.) becomes the weak link. Depending on selection, the speakers may or may not work with the OEM amp; that's why selecting speakers to fit the system you want to end up with is key. Don't want to upgrade the amp? There are speakers that will work better than the OEM ones with the stock amp. Not sure if you want to replace the stock amp? There are speakers that will work with either the OEM amp and an aftermarket amp. Going to rip out the guts entirely? There are speakers (and all manner of other hardware) that will work for such a system.

Based on the info you supplied on the last system you did, your goal was to overhaul the entire system (and by the way: I would consider a custom sub enclosure 'nutty' for any car stereo upgrade. That's advanced-stage stuff.). Others' goals may or may not include that kind of overhaul.

[uberspeed]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

uberspeed, with all due respect, a blanket statement such as 'amp first always' ends up being a misnomer for those not willing or wanting to completely re-do a car stereo system. Fact is, if you select aftermarket speakers that are sensitive enough and that will take a relatively low-wattage load, aftermarket speakers can work fine with an OEM amp, including the one in the 2-series.

For most, the best way to upgrade ANY system -- car stereos, home A/V systems, computers, horsepower output, etc. -- is to replace the weakest link first and work up from there. As you know, upgrading any sound system has diminishing returns until that weakest link is replaced. In our cars, the weak link is not the amp; it's the speakers. Once the speakers are upgraded, then the amp and its biases (DSP, ASD, etc.) becomes the weak link. Depending on selection, the speakers may or may not work with the OEM amp; that's why selecting speakers to fit the system you want to end up with is key. Don't want to upgrade the amp? There are speakers that will work better than the OEM ones with the stock amp. Not sure if you want to replace the stock amp? There are speakers that will work with either the OEM amp and an aftermarket amp. Going to rip out the guts entirely? There are speakers (and all manner of other hardware) that will work for such a system.

Based on the info you supplied on the last system you did, your goal was to overhaul the entire system (and by the way: I would consider a custom sub enclosure 'nutty' for any car stereo upgrade. That's advanced-stage stuff.). Others' goals may or may not include that kind of overhaul.

Like I said before, by all means follow your own upgrade path and I hope you're happy with it. Most folks that have extensive car audio experience would say amp first and it's the route I've gone with almost every time after trying the speakers first route and realizing that it was a mistake. Focals with a stock amp is a shiny paint job on a clunker with no engine. Enjoy your beats.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by uberspeed

Like I said before, by all means follow your own upgrade path and I hope you're happy with it. Most folks that have extensive car audio experience would say amp first and it's the route I've gone with almost every time after trying the speakers first route and realizing that it was a mistake. Focals with a stock amp is a shiny paint job on a clunker with no engine. Enjoy your beats.

I'm not talking about 'my' own path. I'm talking about anyone's path relative to a blanket statement such as "amp first" vs. the proper way to upgrade a system -- not just a stereo system.

Bottom line: to serve others' needs, one must look beyond what has served you and others like you. Just sayin'.

Carry on ...

[uberspeed]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

I'm not talking about 'my' own path. I'm talking about anyone's path relative to a blanket statement such as "amp first" vs. the proper way to upgrade a system -- not just a stereo system.

Bottom line: to serve others' needs, one must look beyond what has served you and others like you. Just sayin'.

Carry on ...

And I'll still hold on to the amp being the first component to be replaced with the most obvious returns. Aftermarket speakers with an anemic amp simply don't make sense, you're not using them anywhere near their capabilities. In the interest of removing contentious banter, I've already set forth my perspective and why. Do as you please, it's not my ears that will be subjected to your choices

[chris719]

Originally Posted by uberspeed

And I'll still hold on to the amp being the first component to be replaced with the most obvious returns. Aftermarket speakers with an anemic amp simply don't make sense, you're not using them anywhere near their capabilities. In the interest of removing contentious banter, I've already set forth my perspective and why. Do as you please, it's not my ears that will be subjected to your choices

You've been tinkering for 20 years and I'm an engineer who has designed audio components. Viffermike is exactly correct. Speakers are much harder to get right than amplifiers and most people don't need as much power as they think, especially since modern music has such a small crest factor.

Of course, throwing focal drivers into the stock positions is not doing it properly anyway. A speaker is more than a driver and you have to take into account the enclosure and room. BMW has hopefully done this, but you have not when you replace the OEM speakers with random "better" drivers. There is a lot of data you need to take to do it like BMW does when they engineer their "Individual Hi-Fi". BMW is using DSP impulse response correction in the system for the M cars.

[akuan99]

[QUOTE=chris719;18728368
There is a lot of data you need to take to do it like BMW does when they engineer their "Individual Hi-Fi". BMW is using DSP impulse response correction in the system for the M cars.[/QUOTE]

You are giving too much credit here.
Engineering is used here to reduce cost as much as possible.
Same drivers are used in many cars with different acoustic profiles and use cheap DSP to compensate for different acoustic environments.
This puts a lot of demand on drivers and amp.
In term of sound system BMW is really behind compared to other premium brand like Lexus and Acura.
My biggest gripe on F22 sound system is the pseudo center channel implementation.
I think this was more dictated by marketing than actual wound engineering.

[tbonez3858]

I competed in car audio competitions for a decade, was an MECP and have spent thousands of hours installing and tuning with an RTA....I state those points not to give my resume but to say that I've seen what works and what doesnt work.

If you want the most bang for your buck you will choose an amplifier with DSP. An amplifier with DSP solves three problems at once. It solves the issues that the speakers are under powered, there is no true EQ and there is no time alignment for the poor speaker placement. You will come closer to quality audio than speakers alone. You can download an RTA to your laptop, buy a mic, download tones, flatten it out, implement time alignment and then make minor EQ adjustments. You will have a better sounding system from a single expenditure of a component...or pay a shop $100 to tune your car once you've installed (DSP/amp).

Speakers alone will not do anything about the MAJOR issue of audio component placement. There are speakers in the A-pillars (tweets I assume) and one is 12 inches from your left ear and the other is four foot from your right ear....Upgrading speakers will not fix time alignment and you will never have quality audio until its fixed. Your only hope with a speaker upgrade is slightly better quality and possibly minute volume increase.

An automobile is an inherently poor audio platform. The 2 series from my brief review has an entire host of issues to deal with in regards to building a solid platform for audio quality. To improve the platform one must start at ground zero and start moving things around and deadening. Time alignment will help but its a band aid and is meant for minor adjustments (inches) and not major adjustments (feet). If you arent willing to go down that road then the reasonable end goal will be volume with minor improvements of quality with your best bang for the buck being DSP/AMP.

[akuan99]

Using DSP to correct highly non-liner speakers is analog to designing an analog power amp with high negative feedback.
Negative feedback is used to "correct" amp's non-linearity due to limitation in components and design compromise.
Analog amp with high negative feedback sounds a lot worse than a better designed (with better components) analog amp with minimum feedback.
The more ideal approach is to start with more linear driver response and acoustic and use DSP for making final tweak.
My point is that too much reliance on DSP to overcome high driver deficiency and non-linearity is not a recipe for good sound.
Case in point is the F22 HiFi stereo which relies on amp's EQ to compensated for lack of tweeters to boost high frequency response.
Amp replacement with new amp and DSP would not effectively address this shortcoming.

[tbonez3858]

Originally Posted by akuan99

Using DSP to correct highly non-liner speakers is analog to designing an analog power amp with high negative feedback.
Negative feedback is used to "correct" amp's non-linearity due to limitation in components and design compromise.
Analog amp with high negative feedback sounds a lot worse than a better designed (with better components) analog amp with minimum feedback.
The more ideal approach is to start with more linear driver response and acoustic and use DSP for making final tweak.
My point is that too much reliance on DSP to overcome high driver deficiency and non-linearity is not a recipe for good sound.
Case in point is the F22 HiFi stereo which relies on amp's EQ to compensated for lack of tweeters to boost high frequency response.
Amp replacement with new amp and DSP would not effectively address this shortcoming.

You point out that the F22 high amp relies on the EQ to compensate for the lack of tweeters. That makes no sense or I am not understanding your point. If you point is that the amp is reducing signals to compensate for the short comming of not having tweeters than any new speaker you put in line would have the same deficiencies. The amp would send the same compensated signal to any speaker you put in line with it...

[chris719]

You are not correcting for non-linear speakers with DSP, you are correcting for room response.

Second, amplifiers with lots of negative feedback do not sound worse. That is a complete audiophile nonsense pseudoscience belief with zero objective evidence to back it up.

Of course you're right that the F22 system might be bad and BMW might use EQ to make it sound somewhat acceptable while using cheap components. Car audio is not very good in general.

[tbonez3858]

Originally Posted by chris719

You are not correcting for non-linear speakers with DSP, you are correcting for room response.

Second, amplifiers with lots of negative feedback do not sound worse. That is a complete audiophile nonsense pseudoscience belief with zero objective evidence to back it up.

Of course you're right that the F22 system might be bad and BMW might use EQ to make it sound somewhat acceptable while using cheap components. Car audio is not very good in general.

BMW could be using one of a dozen metrics to keep unwanted sound going to unwanted speakers (caps/blockers/EQ/crossover/etc). The reality is you can add new speakers all you want but if you don't adjust these metrics then you haven't done yourself any good. If you stick with the same amp and its using EQ to cut frequencies, which is about as sloppy as it gets, the amp will cut these same frequencies to your new speakers. If the amp is implement a crossover the frequencies will also be cut to your new speaker. The only scenario you actually gain by swapping speakers is if the speaker has a built in cap/block and I've never actually seen that in hundreds of cars I've worked on and it definitely isn't apparent in any of the speakers pictures on this site.


Most DSPs on the market have a crossover, EQ, time alignment, DSP mode selection all built into the same package. If you buy an amp that has a DSP module Christmas comes early for you. The days of DSP simply offering different capabilities to manipulate sound into different listening environments (rock/hall/jazz) are long gone.. In the last DSP unit I had I could literally measure the speaker difference between each of my ears and the different speakers in my car and accommodate precise DSP time alignment for each speaker...hence each sound wave reaching my ear at exactly the same time. You aren't getting that in any speaker replacement and I can assure in terms of audio quality its way up on the list. Speaker placement and deadoning are some of the most important metrics for sound staging...


In the end it's your money and you can spend it as you like. I watched streams of people drop between 10-12k on the best components only to end up with average systems while some would spend 2k and have pure automotive staging bliss. The difference was some would listen some would not. A pair of kick panels, deadening, high quality separates, sub, high quality amp and DSP will put most systems in the dirt...

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by tbonez3858

BMW could be using one of a dozen metrics to keep unwanted sound going to unwanted speakers (caps/blockers/EQ/crossover/etc). The reality is you can add new speakers all you want but if you don't adjust these metrics via a DSP then you haven't done yourself any good. If you stick with the same amp and its using EQ to cut frequencies, which is about as sloppy as it gets, the amp will cut these same frequencies to your new speakers. If the amp is implement a crossover the frequencies will also be cut to your new speaker. The only scenario you actually gain by swapping speakers is if the speaker has a built in cap/block and I've never actually seen that in hundreds of cars I've worked on and it definitely isn't apparent in any of the speakers pictures on this site.


Most DSPs on the market have a crossover, EQ, time alignment, DSP mode selection all built into the same package. If you buy an amp that has a DSP module Christmas comes early for you. The days of DSP simply offering different capabilities to manipulate sound into different listening environments (rock/hall/jazz) are long gone.. In the last DSP unit I had I could literally measure the speaker difference between each of my ears and the different speakers in my car and accommodate precise DSP time alignment for each speaker...hence each sound wave reaching my ear at exactly the same time. You aren't getting that in any speaker replacement and I can assure in terms of audio quality its way up on the list. Speaker placement and deadoning are some of the most important metrics for sound staging...


In the end it's your money and you can spend it as you like. I watched streams of people drop between 10-12k on the best components only to end up with average systems while some would spend 2k and have pure automotive staging bliss...a pair of kick panels, deadening, high quality separates, high quality amp and DSP will put in the dirt...

I don't know for how many people this is so far over our heads that it is incomprehensible, but that's the case for me! Can you boil it down to buy this amp, and put it here to take the place of something neatly? Any chance it can be that simple? TIA!

[wkndracr]

Just my $.02 on how I upgraded my sound system in my 135i which came with the awful base system (6 speakers, no amp). My first gripe was no volume, so immediately I installed my old Soundstream 5 channel with some cheap line out converters and added a 10" sub in the trunk and I was surprised at how much the sound improved. Next I upgraded the 6.5 underseat woofers to Morel 8" and replaced the single 4" in the doors with Morel 4"components. Better sound, but I'm going to have to say the amp made more of a difference, at least to my ears. I had some weird issue with a clicking type noise at a certain volume level and finally gave in and added an aftermarket head unit with 16 band EQ and time alignment that I was able to mount in the dash below the heater controls, and still keep my original head unit intact for bluetooth and sat radio (sat radio sounds like crap anyway). I was extremely happy with the sound and thought it couldn't get much better until I got my hand on a Pioneer DEX-P99rs with all the bells and whistles and built with accurate sound reproduction as a priority. This setup is probably the best sounding system I've ever had in any of my cars. It looks like it would be way more difficult to do an alternate head unit in the 2er, but anyone looking to upgrade, I would highly recommend getting a DSP and amp. Depending on how picky you are, you may be able to get away with stock speakers, providing there are at least separate tweeters. If you like it loud though, they may not hold up too long.

[tbonez3858]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

I don't know for how many people this is so far over our heads that it is incomprehensible, but that's the case for me! Can you boil it down to buy this amp, and put it here to take the place of something neatly? Any chance it can be that simple? TIA!

It depends on the system you want to build. You need to have a game plan to start. I've seen people waste tens of thousands of dollars by constantly changing their goals...

Is your goal simply more volume and slight improvement in sound quality...Start with an amp and then to speakers. This is what most people really want...There is a plug in play amp by bimmer tech that lets you download what appears to be DSP "templates"...It isn't that powerful but it's more than 90% of the people really want. It's more expensive than I would like but it appears to be a decent unit. Then buy the focals for factory replacement and you are all set. A good system for under 1k with all plug and play components you can install in less than two hours...There are videos that show you exactly how to hook up the amp. my understanding is that you remove a panel, unhook old amp, take out old amp, pit in new amp and then reattach connectors ...true plug and play.

Amp
http://www.bimmer-tech.net/shop/bmw-...udio-retrofits

Focals
http://www.focal.com/usa/en/302-foca...d-kits-for-bmw

Is your goal sound quality with stock locations...Start with a DSP unit or amp with DSP and sound deadoning material. That will allow you to manipulate a hundred metrics and get very good sound out of the stock speaker placement and size. Most people have never heard a properly tuned system with appropriate power and DSP. It's stunning. The Rockford fosgate 360.2 is a good example and can hook into your stock system and it provides ridiculous level of adjustment...If you get the 360.2 you can plug any amp(s) directly to it and play with the big boys..infinite adjustability and tuning with DSP and an Eq/RTA. Keep in mind a DSP unit allows you to keep your stock head unit. ALL sound processing will be done by the DSP and then handed off to the amps. You get to keep all the stock functionality and steering wheel inputs. It's basically taking the brain of a VERY high end head unit and adding it "behind" the stock head unit. The stock head unit will send a signal to the DSP unit and the DSP unit will do its magic to completely change your car audio. The last time I looked I think the 360.2 had a 37 band equalizer....lol. The 360.2 is NOT an amp, however. You would need s small amp + the 360.2 if you want to go down this road and use this exact equipment.

http://www.rockfordfosgate.com/produ...tails/3sixty.2

If you want to see the user interface go to the 4:00 mark

Is your goal sound quality with a highly modified car? You will need kick panels, high quality components (hybrid audio solutions), deadening, two amps, sub, and DSP unit...This type of set up doesn't cost all that much but gets into ridiculous levels of sound quality. I ran a system in my car that was no more than 3k with a total of five speakers (including tweets)...People would swear I had 20 speakers in the car and I won more than a dozen shows for my power rating...Crystal clear highs and mids that are locked to the center of the dash eye level just like in a concert. Low moving bass that seamlesslay blends with the mids...


In the end sound deadoning is a massive benefit to any audio system. If you do it in one car you will probably do it in every car you own there after. You can easily improve your current system with a $100 bucks and an afternoon of deadening your door panels...

I don't work for any of these companies or in The field of car audio anymore...ie I'm not trying to sell you anything.

[akuan99]

Originally Posted by chris719

You are not correcting for non-linear speakers with DSP, you are correcting for room response.

Second, amplifiers with lots of negative feedback do not sound worse. That is a complete audiophile nonsense pseudoscience belief with zero objective evidence to back it up.

Of course you're right that the F22 system might be bad and BMW might use EQ to make it sound somewhat acceptable while using cheap components. Car audio is not very good in general.

DSP is to correct both speaker and room response.
Change speaker and you have to re-take measurements.
I'm not going to discuss anything on audiophile "nonsense" since this usually will end up with endless objective vs subjective arguments.

[Pyewacket69]

For most folks, I'd guess the search for perfection in ANY automotive sound system is a bit of a fool's errand. For the majority of us, there really isn't any significant return on investment.

I'm not saying that there aren't true audiophiles out there that have such precise hearing, but for most of us that doesn't apply. If you really do have such good hearing quality and distinction, more power to you. I can see how a factory audio system would drive these folks nuts.

However, most of the self-proclaimed audiophiles I've seen translate high volume ability into "sound quality".

While I have a very nice sound setup in my home audio system, there's just too much extraneous noise and too many external variables for me personally to get carried away in a search for the "perfect" audio system for my car.

That's my 2cents...

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by Pyewacket69

For most folks, I'd guess the search for perfection in ANY automotive sound system is a bit of a fool's errand. For the majority of us, there really isn't any significant return on investment.

I'm not saying that there aren't true audiophiles out there that have such precise hearing, but for most of us that doesn't apply. If you really do have such good hearing quality and distinction, more power to you. I can see how a factory audio system would drive these folks nuts.

However, most of the self-proclaimed audiophiles I've seen translate high volume ability into "sound quality".

While I have a very nice sound setup in my home audio system, there's just too much extraneous noise and too many external variables for me personally to get carried away in a search for the "perfect" audio system for my car.

That's my 2cents...

Thank you, Pyewacket.

I'm a realist. I'm also an audiophile, a musician, a gear geek, and a sound and music enthusiast. I can run a 48-channel mixing board, mix sound for live and recorded performances, and I was a professional music critic for nearly a decade in which part of my job was to judge recording quality. Bottom line: I know a ton about power and the reproduction of power -- and not just in car stereos. Far, far, far beyond car stereos.

Again: The weak link should always be fixed first -- but with an ultimate goal in mind. tbonez also nailed it with this statement: "It depends on the system you want to build. You need to have a game plan to start. I've seen people waste tens of thousands of dollars by constantly changing their goals...." In the 2-series, the weak link is the speakers. We all realize that the built-in biases of the stock amp will get magnified by better speakers. For some of us, that's acceptable because the biggest takeaway from this is:

A car interior is about as imperfect a listening room as exists. You have road noise, exterior noise, poor driver/listener locations, reflective surfaces mixed with absorbent surfaces, poorly baffled (if baffled at all) enclosures ... the list goes on. Also, the 2-series is not a luxury car with sound deadening. It is basically a poorly insulated closet. How much power do you need inside a closet for anything but deafening sound levels? Very little. Same goes for speaker driver size ... and so on.

DSP correction is a definite benefit, but it will only have a significant, cost-effective effect with proper reproduction -- and the stock Hi-Fi speakers do not reproduce properly. I'm not even convinced the HK speakers do a much better job beyond having the sail panel tweeters.

Before I digress: acoustic perfection in a car environment is impossible. Kudos to those who spend many Ks to try to drown out physics and acoustics when spending around a single K (plus or minus a few Bens) is all that's really needed and realistic (damn! There's that word again.) It's not worth it to me and the vast, vast majority of other car owners.

[voukephalas]

Originally Posted by tbonez3858

It depends on the system you want to build. You need to have a game plan to start. I've seen people waste tens of thousands of dollars by constantly changing their goals...

Is your goal sound quality with stock locations...Start with a DSP unit or amp with DSP and sound deadoning material. That will allow you to manipulate a hundred metrics and get very good sound out of the stock speaker placement and size. Most people have never heard a properly tuned system with appropriate power and DSP. It's stunning. The Rockford fosgate 360.2 is a good example and can hook into your stock system and it provides ridiculous level of adjustment...If you get the 360.2 you can plug any amp(s) directly to it and play with the big boys..infinite adjustability and tuning with DSP and an Eq/RTA. Keep in mind a DSP unit allows you to keep your stock head unit. ALL sound processing will be done by the DSP and then handed off to the amps. You get to keep all the stock functionality and steering wheel inputs. It's basically taking the brain of a VERY high end head unit and adding it "behind" the stock head unit. The stock head unit will send a signal to the DSP unit and the DSP unit will do its magic to completely change your car audio. The last time I looked I think the 360.2 had a 37 band equalizer....lol. The 360.2 is NOT an amp, however. You would need s small amp + the 360.2 if you want to go down this road and use this exact equipment.

http://www.rockfordfosgate.com/produ...tails/3sixty.2

If you want to see the user interface go to the 4:00 mark

In the end sound deadoning is a massive benefit to any audio system. If you do it in one car you will probably do it in every car you own there after. You can easily improve your current system with a $100 bucks and an afternoon of deadening your door panels...

I don't want/need more volume but would greatly appreciate increased sound quality. If I get the DSP what amps should I look at? I plan to replace the speakers (Focals) but keep the look stock as much as possible.

edit: Would the Rockford DSP work well with the bimmertech amp and Focal speakers or is that not recommended?

[bowjol]

Originally Posted by badg3r

Hi! This is my first post!
I'm in the process of buying a 2015 M235 with base audio. This will be my first BMW. My previous cars have all been VWs. I've been researching and reading up on the base audio system and it seems that the general consensus is that it sucks...
I was wondering what everyone is comparing it to and how it will compare to the stereo in my current 2012 GTI. I only really listen to satellite radio which i know is extremely compressed. Will the base sound system be good enough for my needs? I've been reading about the relatively easy process of upgrading the speakers but will it be worth it if all i listen to is sirius xm?

I own 2010 GTI with base audio, and now also own M235 with base audio.
GTI's audio sound better than M235.
Trust me.