[Trishthedish]

Hey all, quick introduction I suppose: My name is Trish, former HPDE driver, instructor and former E46 M3, Ap1 S2000 & Integra Type R owner. I now have a 2015 STi that is pretty alright, but I'm about to hit 80k and it's time for this car to give someone else headaches.... not that I've had any, but I don't want any.

The problem I am encountering is that no one quite makes the car I want. I live at 9000' of elevation in the mountains of Colorado and sadly, I need AWD at least half of the year. Of course as I am sure you all know, the M240xi only comes in automatic, and it's not a DCT. Any word on a potential for that to change in the near future? It also doesn't have LSDs, or adjustable differentials like the STi and so I'm wondering how the current xDrive system may compare to the STi's AWD and differentials. I have read of aftermarket options, but I'm not crazy about having to mod the car right out of the box.

I did go drive an M240xi as well as the M2C and I cannot for the life of me truly settle on the M240xi as it currently sits. I think if it had a DCT, I probably could. I really want the M2C, but without AWD, that seems like a death wish since to leave my house involves a mountain pass no matter which direction I head.

I also have been reading that some of the proper M cars will be available to be ordered in AWD. Any rumors of the M2 having this potential in the future? I know, I know... proper M cars should remain RWD, and I would typically agree, until I moved here. FWIW, I did see a thread of summarized potential future updates of all BMW models, but it's full of acronyms that are above my pay grade.

And if you were in my same predicament, what would you do?

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by Trishthedish

Hey all, quick introduction I suppose: My name is Trish, former HPDE driver, instructor and former E46 M3, Ap1 S2000 & Integra Type R owner. I now have a 2015 STi that is pretty alright, but I'm about to hit 80k and it's time for this car to give someone else headaches.... not that I've had any, but I don't want any.

The problem I am encountering is that no one quite makes the car I want. I live at 9000' of elevation in the mountains of Colorado and sadly, I need AWD at least half of the year. Of course as I am sure you all know, the M240xi only comes in automatic, and it's not a DCT. Any word on a potential for that to change in the near future? It also doesn't have LSDs, or adjustable differentials like the STi and so I'm wondering how the current xDrive system may compare to the STi's AWD and differentials. I have read of aftermarket options, but I'm not crazy about having to mod the car right out of the box.

I did go drive an M240xi as well as the M2C and I cannot for the life of me truly settle on the M240xi as it currently sits. I think if it had a DCT, I probably could. I really want the M2C, but without AWD, that seems like a death wish since to leave my house involves a mountain pass no matter which direction I head.

I also have been reading that some of the proper M cars will be available to be ordered in AWD. Any rumors of the M2 having this potential in the future? I know, I know... proper M cars should remain RWD, and I would typically agree, until I moved here. FWIW, I did see a thread of summarized potential future updates of all BMW models, but it's full of acronyms that are above my pay grade.

And if you were in my same predicament, what would you do?

The next gen M3 and M4 are likely to only have manual transmissions with the RWD versions, from all account in the press. The M2 will probably therefore only get the base RWD with manual and around 420-450bhp, the 480 or so bhp ///M cars will be AWD with some form of automatic, based on the X3M drivetrain with disconnect for the front axle, by all accounts.

About the only AWD car that has reasonable sporting credentials, over 300bhp, a modern chassis and manual transmission is the Mk8 Golf R.

I would buy the M2 and put some studded tyres on it for the winter. I have no problem taking the M240i into the Canadian rockies to the ski resorts in the winter.

[Sportstick]

https://www.subaru.com/build-your-ow...KydAgRMU2EkpuK

Extra benefit: It's not made/sold by VAG

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

https://www.subaru.com/build-your-ow...KydAgRMU2EkpuK

Extra benefit: It's not made/sold by VAG

I've had much worse reliability issues with Subaru in the past than VW. One of the worst vehicles we ever had was a 2013 Crosstrek which had rust bubbles in several places before it was 3 years old. I know you've had Audi issues, but my Subaru experience hasn't been very good, whereas we've had a couple of good VWs, but prefer BMW.

The WRX STI is also a fairly tired chassis these days, no significant updates since the second generation in 2000. Also lots of ringland failures in the EJ series engines, especially when tuned, will have to see if the FB engines have solved the problem.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by aerobod

I've had much worse reliability issues with Subaru in the past than VW. One of the worst vehicles we ever had was a 2013 Crosstrek which had rust bubbles in several places before it was 3 years old. I know you've had Audi issues, but my Subaru experience hasn't been very good, whereas we've had a couple of good VWs, but prefer BMW.

The WRX STI is also a fairly tired chassis these days, no significant updates since the second generation in 2000. Also lots of ringland failures in the EJ series engines, especially when tuned, will have to see if the FB engines have solved the problem.

I also had a couple of issues with my 2015 Crosstrek, otherwise great while I had it, but Subaru was honest and helpful and went above and beyond to ensure satisfaction. Quite different than having warranty denied on a very trouble-prone new A6 and a tech telling me he was told to falsify a repair order to support their decision! Galaxies apart in integrity. Never another penny to anything VAG, but I'd buy another Subaru with confidence if that was the car I needed/wanted.

Maybe it's worth waiting a bit?

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3...0%20horsepower.

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by Trishthedish

My name is Trish, former HPDE driver, instructor

I need AWD at least half of the year. Of course as I am sure you all know, the M240xi only comes in automatic, and it's not a DCT. Any word on a potential for that to change in the near future?

It also doesn't have LSDs, or adjustable differentials like the STi and so I'm wondering how the current xDrive system may compare to the STi's AWD and differentials. I have read of aftermarket options, but I'm not crazy about having to mod the car right out of the box.

I did go drive an M240xi as well as the M2C and I cannot for the life of me truly settle on the M240xi as it currently sits. I think if it had a DCT, I probably could. I really want the M2C, but without AWD, that seems like a death wish

I also have been reading that some of the proper M cars will be available to be ordered in AWD. Any rumors of the M2 having this potential in the future? I know, I know... proper M cars should remain RWD, and I would typically agree, until I moved here.

FWIW, I did see a thread of summarized potential future updates of all BMW models, but it's full of acronyms that are above my pay grade.

And if you were in my same predicament, what would you do?

1) With the driving skills you must have acquired, why do you feel you need AWD? Not trying to talk you out of it – just wondering. One reason I ask is that in a former life I drove from Boulder to Vail, Aspen, and Snowmass many times each winter on tires that were pretty poor compared to today’s snow tires. I suspect the roads are cleared better today than they were then, too. I found steep driveways that had melting snow on top of packed snow to be the most challenging; everything else was just a matter of driving consistent with the conditions.

2) From what I’ve read, BMW is moving even the M-cars to 8-speed torque converter transmissions. The impression I’ve developed is that the DCTs are pretty much over with for this manufacturer.

3) Word is that one or more flavors of the upcoming (current? I’ve lost track) M3/M4 will be offered with AWD. I think it was the Comp models that were going to offer that, in a rear-biased implementation, and in a year or two. If I had to guess, and I am, there won't be an AWD M2. All you can do to figure out where BMW is going is to read widely in the motoring press and on any forums you find useful. It sounds like you're already doing this.

4) Link to that thread? I’m sure someone here can help decipher the acronyms, as there isn’t much that’s new in that regard.

5a) AWD: M240i xDrive with whatever aftermarket diff is recommended by diffsonline.com (FWIW, it’s likely not to be clutch-based); Summary: AWD, no DCT, single rear LSD, used = relatively inexpensive.

5b) RWD: M240i 6-speed or 8-speed auto with a Wavetrac LSD and the latest Nokian Hakkapeliitta winter tires; Summary: RWD, MT, LSD, winter tires matched to Rocky Mtn. winter conditions.

[ggggbmw]

Why do you want a DCT? Aside from quick shifts at speed, I find them to be rather ragged all the rest of the time. Especially at low speeds.

I am very impressed with how quick the shifts on the ZF8 are in this car. Especially when in transmission sport mode, they are quick enough to jolt the car when accelerating hard. And the paddle shifters are very responsive. You click, and it shifts. (Unless it would be an over-rev on a down shift, then it waits until it can shift safely.)

I find the ZF8 to be completely acceptable on track, and very smooth when off track. I know it's heresy, but even for track use I'm not sure I would pick a manual over the ZF8 if I had a choice.

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

I also had a couple of issues with my 2015 Crosstrek, otherwise great while I had it, but Subaru was honest and helpful and went above and beyond to ensure satisfaction. Quite different than having warranty denied on a very trouble-prone new A6 and a tech telling me he was told to falsify a repair order to support their decision! Galaxies apart in integrity. Never another penny to anything VAG, but I'd buy another Subaru with confidence if that was the car I needed/wanted.

Maybe it's worth waiting a bit?

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3...0%20horsepower.

I'm unlikely to buy another Subaru (they are on my "do-not-buy" list that also includes Chrysler and Dodge), even if they substantially improved their product offerings, due to the local dealers.

One dealer I've found to have a lot of shady sales practices, another is just not competent - just outside the 3-yr bumper-to-bumper warranty we had ABS and stability system control failure on the Crosstrek. The dealer diagnosed it as a $1500 repair to replace the ABS pump and VDC module but would talk partial cost sharing as good will, I did a bit of digging myself and tracked the problem down to the brake light switch failing, which I repaired for $10 myself once I'd diagnosed the problem properly.

[WolfGTI]

Had VAG products before moving to BMW, I've also driven the WRX and STI - I'd never buy a Subaru as they feel like tin cans. They do drive decently but not what I would consider. That being said the only real obstacle to the M240i is ground clearance in deep snow, good winter tires + LSD + common sense is pretty unbeatable.

[Maynard]

Sounds like you want to wait for the M3/4 comp with AWD (slated for summer 21 release); the ZF is a fantastic transmission, can't imagine you'd really miss the DCT; if that combo were what they'd put into the M2CS I might have found the will to drop another 15-20k for it. Alternately, you could certainly mod up a 240X drive in similar fashion now.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by aerobod

I'm unlikely to buy another Subaru (they are on my "do-not-buy" list that also includes Chrysler and Dodge), even if they substantially improved their product offerings, due to the local dealers.

One dealer I've found to have a lot of shady sales practices, another is just not competent - just outside the 3-yr bumper-to-bumper warranty we had ABS and stability system control failure on the Crosstrek. The dealer diagnosed it as a $1500 repair to replace the ABS pump and VDC module but would talk partial cost sharing as good will, I did a bit of digging myself and tracked the problem down to the brake light switch failing, which I repaired for $10 myself once I'd diagnosed the problem properly.

Maybe I'm reading too much into how much the OP wants a "snow beast". But, if not, I'd still stay with Subaru's symmetrical AWD and the appropriate seasonal tires, especially as she's been happy up to now with hers and possibly her dealer as well, as was I. The new one launches soon.

(My issue with Audi, by the way, aside from the awful vehicle quality, was not the dealer....nice folks....it was the company and supposed customer support people. The tech reported the pressure to alter the RO came from needing to support their denial of warranty on brakes on an 18 month old car. Done.)

[Trishthedish]

Thanks for the responses, everyone.

The single only issue I have had with my STi is the power steering rack apparently froze at a number of connections and the entire steering rack had to be replaced under warranty. I now park in the garage, so I have not had any other freezing issues. I did consider a 2020 STi, but when I went to look at it, I wasn't excited in the least. 2022 is supposed to bring the remodel release, and that is one option I am considering, but I am pretty bored with the STi.

The road I live off of is not well maintained, and my driveway is about 50% grade. I have to drift the STi into my driveway as it is, so I don't really see a RWD vehicle working for the winter here given my particular circumstance. There is a small part of me that is still considering the M2C and driving a Forester we already have all winter.

I don't particularly want the DCT persay, I would prefer a manual, but given the Xdrive is not available in a manual, I wondered if there were any rumors of a DCT potential... clearly that does not seem to be the case.

Here is a link to that thread I was referring to summarizing future production plans: https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=901686

[Ron Jeffries]

i miss the dct. it's the one thing i miss between my 135is and m240xi. the zf is good. the dct is great.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by Trishthedish

I don't particularly want the DCT persay...

Not the DCT, per se, perhaps?!

[Trishthedish]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

Not the DCT, per se, perhaps?!

Hah, that too! I tend to rely pretty heavily on spell check and it didn’t highlight that one!

[TemjinX2]

why not look into a awd f30 340i or f32 awd 440i? they are offered in awd manual, there rare but if you look nation wide, you can find them.

the zf8 is probably the fastest auto you can buy on the market, thats why pretty much every auto manufacturer is using them.

the m240xi will understeer less compared to the sti, due to the better weight distribution and rwd bias. I know the sti can move up to 60% of its power to the rear but still understeers too much in my opinion.

[DistantTea]

My stupid opinions:

The ZF8 in Sport+ is equal to the DCT in most high performance circumstances. I would say overheating is a possible downside but other than that shifting is as quick, downshifts are smoother and less likely to upset the chassis, and getting stuck in ridiculous traffic is infinitely more enjoyable. If you get a chance to drive someone's car in Sport+ and really wring it out you'll see the ZF is not a detriment to the car in the slightest.

As far as AWD systems go... XDrive is nothing compared to the STI. Especially compared the double LSD systems they used to have in the older STIs. Throw in an LSD on the BMW and it's better but the STI drive system is faster and more robust in every single way. That said, unless you are racing on gravel or snow that doesn't matter much. Personally I think the Acura system is the best of the bunch but you can't get it on a small car so whatever. XDrive with an LSD is pretty amazing. I'm stupid so if I had the money I would probably try to put a helical LSD on the front and rear and probably make the car undrivable.

[Trishthedish]

Originally Posted by DistantTea

My stupid opinions:

Stupid opinions welcome here!

Originally Posted by DistantTea

The ZF8 in Sport+ is equal to the DCT in most high performance circumstances. I would say overheating is a possible downside but other than that shifting is as quick, downshifts are smoother and less likely to upset the chassis, and getting stuck in ridiculous traffic is infinitely more enjoyable. If you get a chance to drive someone's car in Sport+ and really wring it out you'll see the ZF is not a detriment to the car in the slightest.

Interesting and encouraging to hear. I did not get to drive the car in Sport+ with the salesman. What I enjoyed about the M2C transmission was that it downshifted exactly when I asked it to. I did not have that same experience driving the M240xi. It wasn't terrible, but when comparing the 2 it was blatantly obvious which was going to behave as I wanted... but that could be said about the entire car.

Originally Posted by DistantTea

As far as AWD systems go... XDrive is nothing compared to the STI. Especially compared the double LSD systems they used to have in the older STIs. Throw in an LSD on the BMW and it's better but the STI drive system is faster and more robust in every single way. That said, unless you are racing on gravel or snow that doesn't matter much. Personally I think the Acura system is the best of the bunch but you can't get it on a small car so whatever. XDrive with an LSD is pretty amazing. I'm stupid so if I had the money I would probably try to put a helical LSD on the front and rear and probably make the car undrivable.

I think that what I need to further explain is that I drive from 9000 of elevation down to 7200 where my office is and then back up a mountain pass that tops out around 10k. The mountain pass has very little areas of guardrail and the fall is hundreds of feet into a narrow river canyon. I want AWD not because I want it, but because I need it to even make it up these climbs. The STi handles this commute like it's nothing. It inspires so much confidence, that even when the road is icy, AWD drifting is fun rather than a white knuckled commute... the AWD system in that car is pretty amazing and predictable.

The problem is the rest of the car, and I'm ready to get back into something more refined. I just can't believe the options are so limited.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by Trishthedish

Stupid opinions welcome here!



Interesting and encouraging to hear. I did not get to drive the car in Sport+ with the salesman. What I enjoyed about the M2C transmission was that it downshifted exactly when I asked it to. I did not have that same experience driving the M240xi. It wasn't terrible, but when comparing the 2 it was blatantly obvious which was going to behave as I wanted... but that could be said about the entire car.



I think that what I need to further explain is that I drive from 9000 of elevation down to 7200 where my office is and then back up a mountain pass that tops out around 10k. The mountain pass has very little areas of guardrail and the fall is hundreds of feet into a narrow river canyon. I want AWD not because I want it, but because I need it to even make it up these climbs. The STi handles this commute like it's nothing. It inspires so much confidence, that even when the road is icy, AWD drifting is fun rather than a white knuckled commute... the AWD system in that car is pretty amazing and predictable.

The problem is the rest of the car, and I'm ready to get back into something more refined. I just can't believe the options are so limited.

What about a combination of a lower cost 2 than an M2, but manual trans, for non-snow days and a lower cost symmetrical AWD model Subaru for winter conditions? Might come out close to a similar total spend? Not sure what made me think of that solution (from my days living in Michigan!)

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

What about a combination of a lower cost 2 than an M2, but manual trans, for non-snow days and a lower cost symmetrical AWD model Subaru for winter conditions? Might come out close to a similar total spend? Not sure what made me think of that solution (from my days living in Michigan!)

The Crosstrek in mountains and deep snow in the winter is actually not very good. In deep snow it doesn't have the gearing or engine torque to push through, so you have to slip the clutch a lot with the manual transmission to get going to avoid bogging down, with the danger of overheating it.

When climbing mountain passes the naturally aspirated engine has to work very hard at altitude, we had to slow down a lot on the Trans Canada mountain passes when heading skiing in the winter due to excessive engine temperature. The brakes are also marginal under spirited use and easy to overheat, again, not really suitable for mountain use, as there is little engine braking available to offload the brakes.

Overall, besides any reliability and dealer issues, the Crosstrek is firmly in the top 5 worst vehicles I've ever owned, I shouldn't have been swayed to buying it due to the fact it was the only AWD SUV with a manual transmission that was available at the time.

[Trishthedish]

Originally Posted by aerobod

The Crosstrek in mountains and deep snow in the winter is actually not very good. In deep snow it doesn't have the gearing or engine torque to push through, so you have to slip the clutch a lot with the manual transmission to get going to avoid bogging down, with the danger of overheating it.

When climbing mountain passes the naturally aspirated engine has to work very hard at altitude, we had to slow down a lot on the Trans Canada mountain passes when heading skiing in the winter due to excessive engine temperature. The brakes are also marginal under spirited use and easy to overheat, again, not really suitable for mountain use, as there is little engine braking available to offload the brakes.

Overall, besides any reliability and dealer issues, the Crosstrek is firmly in the top 5 worst vehicles I've ever owned, I shouldn't have been swayed to buying it due to the fact it was the only AWD SUV with a manual transmission that was available at the time.

That is exactly my opinion of the Crosstrek. You couldn't pay me to drive it.

[Trishthedish]

Originally Posted by TemjinX2

why not look into a awd f30 340i or f32 awd 440i? they are offered in awd manual, there rare but if you look nation wide, you can find them.

the zf8 is probably the fastest auto you can buy on the market, thats why pretty much every auto manufacturer is using them.

the m240xi will understeer less compared to the sti, due to the better weight distribution and rwd bias. I know the sti can move up to 60% of its power to the rear but still understeers too much in my opinion.

Thanks for the suggestion, I may actually take a look to see what is available nation wide.

Regarding your last statement, I'm not sure I agree 100%. The STi is actually fairly well balanced and can achieve perfect corner balance relatively easily. It also has LSDs, and you can easily pull the front end out of an understeer situation barring you don't mind the tire wear, or throttle lift oversteer easily. It also biases 59% of power to the rear wheels set in "auto" on the C.Diff, and up to 100% either direction if necessary... just so we are working with factual information here.