[RotorOver]

It was f*^%ing 15F in Atlanta this morning. What the hell! Left the baby and her MPSSs in the garage.

[aerostar]

Originally Posted by TajoMan

I am 100% with you in theory, but can you explain about video?
It seems proper test.

Maybe tire compound 'viscosity' does not matter too much in cold temp?
Or there is more in the tire grip then just softer compound?

Just as there are better tires within a summer tire category, there are better winter tires within a winter tire category.

He probably had some high snow performance low dry performance tires on.

Some are able to do almost as much as MPSS in the cold while still providing good snow traction.

All depends on tread + compound.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by RotorOver

It was f*^%ing 15F in Atlanta this morning. What the hell! Left the baby and her MPSSs in the garage.

Yep. It hasn't broken 30 in Dallas since Saturday. Walked to work this morning & left the Yoko Advan-shod P-car at home. It hasn't been driven in about three days ... and we're not supposed to break 30 again until about 11 a.m. tomorrow (highs in the mid-40s). May need to walk home and take her for a spin on my lunch break.

[harma24]

Originally Posted by TajoMan

I am 100% with you in theory, but can you explain about video?
It seems proper test.

I love all the people who are commenting on the difference between the tires; they have either not watched the video or are simply in denial of the results.


Now, as the tests were performed at 24 - 26 deg F, I suspect although the ambient temperature is below the glass transition temperature, the actual temperature of the rubber was at or above it's transition temperature. Based on what I've seen, tire temperatures easily run 15 deg above ambient, so I'd bet the rubber temp was actually at least 40 deg F. I would also bet that Michelin has some factor of safety built into the published 40 deg temperature (I doubt tires on C7's are cracking at 38 deg F, but I'm sure if you drive them in 0 deg F weather you'll have issues).

So, as I said before, I wonder how much it comes down to selling more tires. From the video results, I suspect that you may be okay on summer tires *on dry pavement* if you rarely see temperatures much below 30 deg F.

However, as the temperature here hasn't reached the freezing point in over a week and I still see plenty of patches of snow and ice, I'll stick with my Alpin's.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by harma24

I wonder how much it comes down to selling more tires. From the video results, I suspect that you may be okay on summer tires *on dry pavement* if you rarely see temperatures much below 30 deg.

Have you driven a car on Summers in below-freezing temps? The analogy that the tires turn into hockey pucks is not much of an exaggeration.

Imagine starting a car with Summers on it, pulling out into traffic, and having to immediately make an evasive maneuver on dry pavement. When it's 80 degrees, you're golden. When it's 25, you're not. Summers can't grip aggressively at that temp, and if they are asked to, they may break. Literally.

Trust me on this. I've had to do it. The tires chatter, then skid. Many will do that in 35-degree temps on polished concrete just by turning the steering wheel when cold. This is a sign ... basically the tires telling you, "Hey! I'm not made for this. Be careful!"

Similarly, imagine doing the same thing above and almost immediately driving over a sharp pavement crease or, worse yet, a pothole. In 80-degree temps, the tire has the pliability to take it. In 25-degree temps, they may literally split open. How do I know this? I know not one, but two people who had this happen to them on Summers; one in a MINI Cooper S, the other in a Hyundai Genesis Coupe.

One more anecdote for you: In 2008, I drove to B.C., Canada in a MINI Cooper in early September. It had Falken Summers on it. No worries until I decided to take a short cut through Kootenay Pass (the highest highway in Canada, by the way) on the way to Nelson, near where my family's cabin is. It was 70 degrees in the valley below. It hit 30 degrees at the pass. I literally crawled at 25-30 mph over that pass and skidded more times than I could count -- and it was mostly dry. I was stupid. Lesson WAY learned.

Hey, if ya wanna, go for it. Just be prepared for the potential consequences of it.

[DSTR]

Michelin is not using a sales effort here. Its simple physics. There is not cofirmation you would buy Michelin tires. Silly. Its cold and winter tires work as function of temperature. No need for conspiracy or fake news to make this vague.

Winter tires are mandatory in Germany for a reason. In the cold, wet or dry they function and provide the performance required to cope with cold surfaces.

[TajoMan]

Originally Posted by aerostar

Just as there are better tires within a summer tire category, there are better winter tires within a winter tire category.

He probably had some high snow performance low dry performance tires on.

Some are able to do almost as much as MPSS in the cold while still providing good snow traction.

All depends on tread + compound.

That summer tire was Potenza RE71 which is extreme performance summer.

If that tire did better than ANY winter tire in cold temperature, that means something.

It should be rock hard in that temperature and still did better then winter tire. I don't understand how it's doing it.

[TajoMan]

Originally Posted by DSTR

Michelin is not using a sales effort here. Its simple physics. There is not cofirmation you would buy Michelin tires. Silly. Its cold and winter tires work as function of temperature. No need for conspiracy or fake news to make this vague.

Winter tires are mandatory in Germany for a reason. In the cold, wet or dry they function and provide the performance required to cope with cold surfaces.

I have not seen a test result in DRY, cold surface.
If you found one, please share.

In snow, ice or wet surface in cold, there is no competition, winter tire for sure.

[albertw]

Maybe I missed it, but there hasn't been a comment on the problem that the speedometer is plainly visible for one tire test but not the other. Seems kind of suspicious to me, and it's enough for me to ignore the conclusions.

[XutvJet]

Tires are always a compromise and you need to outfit the car for the most common road conditions the car will be driving in, not necessarily the worst case.

I run Michelin PA4s in the winter and MPSS in warmer months. In Kansas City, snow removal is pretty swift assuming we don't get more than 6" in a single snow event. Within 6 to 24 hours of a snow event, a majority of the roads are cleared and mostly just wet with some slush. Thus it makes absolutely no sense to run full blown snow tires in Kansas City. In the ultra rare event that I'm actually caught out during a major snow event, I have a set of Autosocks in the trunk. I have no need to be driving in those conditions, but I had the Autosocks left over from my G35 so why not.

The PA4s definitely lock up far easier and don't have the braking capabilities the MPSS tires do in 30+ degree temps. The PA4s are far better in the wet, slush, grimy roads, and obviously snow. In sub 40 degree temps, the PA4s allow for some 6/10 to 7/10 fun driving whereas the MPSS tires are a disaster. Once the temps go above 40, the PA4s are pretty squishy and rolly. Above 60 and they're laughable bad.

[petegtsv10]

Originally Posted by harma24

I love all the people who are commenting on the difference between the tires; they have either not watched the video or are simply in denial of the results.


Now, as the tests were performed at 24 - 26 deg F, I suspect although the ambient temperature is below the glass transition temperature, the actual temperature of the rubber was at or above it's transition temperature. Based on what I've seen, tire temperatures easily run 15 deg above ambient, so I'd bet the rubber temp was actually at least 40 deg F. I would also bet that Michelin has some factor of safety built into the published 40 deg temperature (I doubt tires on C7's are cracking at 38 deg F, but I'm sure if you drive them in 0 deg F weather you'll have issues).

So, as I said before, I wonder how much it comes down to selling more tires. From the video results, I suspect that you may be okay on summer tires *on dry pavement* if you rarely see temperatures much below 30 deg F.

However, as the temperature here hasn't reached the freezing point in over a week and I still see plenty of patches of snow and ice, I'll stick with my Alpin's.

The "cracking" temperature is 20 degrees, according to the Michelin document.

[Maynard]

I have to admit that this stuff bothers me, as it seems to be encouraging inexperienced drivers to take huge risks, and justified by pseudo-science. I think the video is nifty, but rather irrelevant - it is comparing track-level tires to studless snows, and only looking at one very simple metric of a few panic stops. Reassuring if I wanted to trailer a car to the drag strip in 25 degree weather, but kind of insane to extrapolate this into actual use - even the 'just avoid anyplace wet, icy, or snowy' would be quite a feat to pull off in most areas, not to mention the risk of delaminating or chunking it to pieces on a pothole (either of which leads to a wrecked car). I also think the summers are not functioning normally, even if they can deliver straight line braking - note that he is remarking about the braking instability; and no mention of cornering ability, or durability other than talk about tread squirm during other driving.

The extreme perf summers are going to be softer than MPSS all across the temp range, and as another poster noted, the rubber was likely right near that 40 degrees. So these are probably polarized results (best you'd get w/ a 'summer tire in the sub-freezing' and worst you'd get from the winters since they are just getting into the proper temps). I guess there are a few places out west where it gets cold but never snows/rains, but I wouldn't bet my car on not hitting any wet spots (max perf summers aren't very good in the wet even at summer temps).

I assume that Michelin (and all the others) test the hell out of their tires, and if you could get away with this they would advertise the hell out of it (PA$'s are probably as close as they can get to this). I think it is the opposite of "trying to sell more snow tires" - more like having to play it safe, even if it costs sales. For every person running summer/winter, they probably lose a dozen sales of their priciest summer tires b/c somebody doesn't want to swap out to winter tires as recommended.

[petegtsv10]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

No, it's not anal at all; it's common sense.

It's not the forum moderators' fault that people don't use this and other forums properly, just as it's not the moderators' responsibility to enable the 'average' forum user who can't be bothered by subforums. This forum is, first and foremost, a resource. Resources are best organized by topic.

Simply put, this topic is not specific to a 2 Series, therefore it belongs where it is specific to: tires. If you can't deal with the rocket science of subforums, use the morass that is Bimmerfest.

I'm the OP. If I had used "common sense", as you suggest, this thread would not have had over 1650 views in the tire section. I wanted this important safety topic to have maximum exposure here and that's what it got. I am able to deal with the rocket science of subforums, but wanted more than a view or two. You've directed several veiled insults at me while I was just trying to be helpful. What's your real issue?

[petegtsv10]

It's been below 20 degrees here (TN) for a while now so I haven't driven the cars with the MPSS or MPS4s. Today it was in the mid-30s , so I took the M235 and the AMG GTS out. Driven fairly easily, the BMW was ok, but the MBZ would spin the tires at any hint of too much throttle. (not as bad as a C7 ZO6, but certainly used TC a lot) I did no empirical testing, but seat-of-the-pants tells me the loss of traction was dramatic. I can't explain the S2000 video, but his conclusions are way different than mine.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by petegtsv10

I'm the OP. If I had used "common sense", as you suggest, this thread would not have had over 1650 views in the tire section. I wanted this important safety topic to have maximum exposure here and that's what it got. I am able to deal with the rocket science of subforums, but wanted more than a view or two. You've directed several veiled insults at me while I was just trying to be helpful. What's your real issue?

My real issue is that this topic has been discussed several times already in the Wheels and Tires subforum. This topic also has absolutely nothing to do with a 2 Series specifically. Bam! Inappropriate post.

You had no need to post this retread topic in the General forum beyond your own selfishness and laziness. Please learn how to research, and please learn how to contribute properly to the forum.

Reported.

[Ron Jeffries]

FWIW I found this thread both interesting and useful, and if it had been in some other forum, I’d never have found it, because I don’t go trolling around in random forums looking for stuff.

What clever moderation would do, technology permitting, might be to move the first post to the tire forum, leave a copy and a link to it here, and freeze this thread.

The thread length proves its value here, IMO, and if it’s of general value, one could place a link to it elsewhere.

[JerryW235]

Not trying to throw fuel on any fire here, but all I pretty much do on Bimmerpost in general is click on "New Posts" and whatever is new across any of the forums / subforums comes up, that's how I initially found this thread and now just check out any new posts on it. I hardly ever go to any of the 2 Series specific threads directly.

[Ruhnie]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

Yep. It hasn't broken 30 in Dallas since Saturday. Walked to work this morning & left the Yoko Advan-shod P-car at home. It hasn't been driven in about three days ... and we're not supposed to break 30 again until about 11 a.m. tomorrow (highs in the mid-40s). May need to walk home and take her for a spin on my lunch break.

I drove to work today for the first time since last week. I think it was around 30 or so, and skidded through a left turn. Seemed better at lunch with it in the upper 40s. I've never gotten winter tires here in Dallas but now I'm wondering if I should.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by Ruhnie

I drove to work today for the first time since last week. I think it was around 30 or so, and skidded through a left turn. Seemed better at lunch with it in the upper 40s. I've never gotten winter tires here in Dallas but now I'm wondering if I should.

I opted to run A/S tires on my 228 after the RFT summers wore through because of my road trips and these North Texas cold snaps. As long as they don't last more than a couple of days, no worries -- but this one (finally over today: first thing I'm doing when I get home from the office is to take the 718 for an operating-temp spin) was a tad long ...

... Funny: I've been looking out for cars with Summer rubber on. Noticed both a Z4M and a GT350 on the walk to work this morning with A/Ss on 'em. Smart folks ... the 987 at the lawyer's offices across from my condo? Not so much ...

[aerobod]

On a wet surface a few degrees above freezing, summer and winter tyre differences can be even more dramatic than on a dry surface, as you can’t keep heat in the tyre, Car Magazine did an interesting comparison a few years ago: http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-new...r-tyre-test-3/

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by JerryW235

Not trying to throw fuel on any fire here, but all I pretty much do on Bimmerpost in general is click on "New Posts" and whatever is new across any of the forums / subforums comes up, that's how I initially found this thread and now just check out any new posts on it. I hardly ever go to any of the 2 Series specific threads directly.

And "New Posts" would have worked no matter where the original thread was posted.

Ron Jeffries : It doesn't matter what your specific behavior is. What matters is how a forum is set up, and the TOS that governs how threads and posts are organized. A forum user's responsibility is to learn how to use forums like 2Addicts the way they're intended to be used; not for 2Addicts to adjust to the way an individual user wants it to be used.

Less compartmentalized forums such as Bimmerfest are nearly impossible to use as a resource because there's so much information crammed into one forum, it ends up killing its searchability and basically becomes a chat room. If that's how you want a forum to function, please become a regular over there. That's not how I (and, I dare say, most 'power users') want a forum to work.

Finally ... if you think this forum is a pain in the arse for you to use, you should try the following forums:
rennlist
Planet-9
NASIOC
Any Civic forum

As a counterpoint, these are ones that generally work as intended (or did at the time I was a regular):
North American Motoring
VWVortex (in places)
Talkbass.com

[TajoMan]

Originally Posted by Ruhnie

I drove to work today for the first time since last week. I think it was around 30 or so, and skidded through a left turn. Seemed better at lunch with it in the upper 40s. I've never gotten winter tires here in Dallas but now I'm wondering if I should.

Good all season tire will do just fine in Dallas.

Winter tire is just overkill in Dallas 99% of the time.
Traction is pretty bad when temperature is above 35~40F.

If I live in Dallas, I would stick with PSS and drive slow when it's cold for you folks.
(Daytime high temp has been below 20F here since Christmas. I feel like I can wear short sleeve if I see mid 30. lol)