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      06-23-2022, 06:06 PM   #353
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ximian View Post
I see now. Your argument seems to be that charging many EVs with power supplied only from renewable sources certainly isn't going to match the demand. Of course, anyone can agree to that for the foreseeable future.

Adopting a new way of doing things doesn't have to be perfect in every aspect before it's acceptable. I'm not caught up in the false marketing of EV's being "green" so we can certainly continue to power EVs with coal or natural gas to meet the gap. It's awful for the environment, but the alternative is awful for the environment as well. Not a big deal.

The long term goal is significantly reducing oil imports and gaining energy independence so we're not reliant on a bunch of lunatics to live life normally. The greenhouse gas emission reductions are certainly an added bonus.

Car companies are going electric, utility companies are upgrading and adding renewable capacity. Utility companies will continue to want to make money so they'll provide that energy, one way or another. Similar thing happened when air condition systems started becoming popular.
Most utilities aren't upgrading, they are simply trying to keep up. Just like how we don't call replacing bald tires on our car an upgrade. Most power providers are regulated monopolies, they can't "upgrade" because their return on investment is capped, they just try to return enough margin to remain solvent and ready for bad years, and to stay afloat. Anything beyond that requires rate increases which have to pass through the PUC, and then cost rate payers more. If you power billing rate hasn't gone up, it's because they aren't "upgrading". If you want an upgrade, you'll have to pay for it.

I don't want to destroy our grid along the way, or fool ourselves about how green we are on the way to setting up something better (and I do 100% want that "better).

A large majority (90% in many places) of EV's charge between midnight and 6 AM when power is cheaper. That's almost all coal and natural gas energy at that time of day, with a little hydro mixed in (which with droughts is also no longer sustainable).

Utilities are adding capacity, but it's not going where people think it does, and it's not a stable supply. They are also removing capacity elsewhere (coal retirement) that is actually stable.

Driving an EV powered by coal and natural gas has a per-mile-CO2 production similar to driving a prius, but a prius doesn't load the grid, and those cars are cheap and reliable already. Half the price of an average EV too.

I'm concerned we are putting the cart before the horse on some of this stuff. Forcing it won't make it work better.

Last edited by chad86tsi; 06-23-2022 at 07:59 PM..
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      06-23-2022, 06:26 PM   #354
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Good conversation ^^^^
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      06-24-2022, 08:10 AM   #355
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Night time solar is the heliostats that retain heat and keep boilers going driving turbines at night or when the sun isn't shining.

Although it's still not perfect.
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      06-26-2022, 12:57 PM   #356
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Not smelling, maintaining or using an outdated inefficient ICE engine everyday is reason enough to switch. The fact that EV's can be greener in most situations is icing on the cake. Yes anyone can make a hypothetical argument with a focused scenario where they aren't greener but it's totally missing the point.

The narrative that everything isn't perfect so let's not bother is becoming tiresome to hear.
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      06-26-2022, 01:20 PM   #357
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Originally Posted by Donatello. View Post
Why own anything then? Just rent 100% of the time.

Most accidents happen close to home or places we always go...
I always rent when I go on a long road trip. Pop into the local Avis, pick the 2022 Suburban and don't worry about a damn thing. It's beautiful.
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      06-26-2022, 03:00 PM   #358
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Originally Posted by neilum View Post
Yes anyone can make a hypothetical argument with a focused scenario where they aren't greener but it's totally missing the point.

The narrative that everything isn't perfect so let's not bother is becoming tiresome to hear.
What is the point?

Charging an EV with Carbon based electricity, good or bad for the environment?

I'd say it's better than nothing, but so are hybrids and/or public transit.
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      06-26-2022, 07:38 PM   #359
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chad86tsi View Post
What is the point?

Charging an EV with Carbon based electricity, good or bad for the environment?

I'd say it's better than nothing, but so are hybrids and/or public transit.
Continued buy in to a technology ensures the technology gets better. More vehicles come out, more competition to make a better car. The demand necessitates improvement.

But there are plenty of other benefits. Fast, fun, included tech, low maintenance, no trips to the gas station, full charge every day, quiet, etc.

We are all driving different cars for different reasons. No one vehicle is a one size fits all, or we'd all be driving the same thing.

You may not see the point. That doesn't mean there isn't one.
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      06-26-2022, 07:57 PM   #360
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ga9213 View Post
Continued buy in to a technology ensures the technology gets better. More vehicles come out, more competition to make a better car. The demand necessitates improvement.

But there are plenty of other benefits. Fast, fun, included tech, low maintenance, no trips to the gas station, full charge every day, quiet, etc.

We are all driving different cars for different reasons. No one vehicle is a one size fits all, or we'd all be driving the same thing.

You may not see the point. That doesn't mean there isn't one.
Increasing a demand for a resource that isn't able to support is neither wise, nor progress. Just because you want it doesn't make it a good idea.

We will get there, lets just be smart about it.
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      06-26-2022, 07:59 PM   #361
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chad86tsi View Post
Increasing a demand for a resource that isn't able to support is neither wise, nor progress. Just because you want it doesn't make it a good idea.

We will get there, lets just be smart about it.
That's just capitalism.

The people want it. Time to figure it out.

You guys do support capitalism, don't you?
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      06-26-2022, 08:09 PM   #362
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guys it's not about the environment. the gas prices itself is a turn off to buy ICEs right now. where i live diesels are now more expensive than gas - who would have thought.

but the charging stations cost as much as petrol however, so you do need to charge at home to save money.

that's not counting the cost of longer term maintenance.
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      06-26-2022, 09:07 PM   #363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ga9213 View Post
That's just capitalism.

You guys do support capitalism, don't you?
I do, and I support a stable power grid. If I have to choose between EV's and power, I choose power.

People also want Heroin and Meth, and a universal basic income. It's not always good for business to give the people what they want.
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      06-27-2022, 06:51 AM   #364
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chad86tsi View Post
I do, and I support a stable power grid. If I have to choose between EV's and power, I choose power.

People also want Heroin and Meth, and a universal basic income. It's not always good for business to give the people what they want.
Welp, that's your choice and you're free to make it!
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      06-27-2022, 08:47 AM   #365
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Interesting article on the ownership costs of EV's vs Hybrid and ICE. Done over 3 years and it seems that there really isn't any savings for the EV, in most cases it was more expensive. Gas prices were lower for the testing as it was done over 3 years, but once government has to spend trillions to upgrade the grid and gas tax is lost as ICE diminishes the cost for EV will likely go up....way up.
https://driving.ca/features/shopping...fers-surprises
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      06-27-2022, 11:28 AM   #366
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ga9213 View Post
Welp, that's your choice and you're free to make it!
"Free" is going to be a relative term in a few years...

Last edited by Cos270; 06-27-2022 at 12:14 PM..
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      06-27-2022, 11:48 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by Cos270 View Post
"Free" us going to be a relative term in a few years...
It's already relative. Always has been.
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      06-27-2022, 12:15 PM   #368
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murf the Surf View Post
Interesting article on the ownership costs of EV's vs Hybrid and ICE. Done over 3 years and it seems that there really isn't any savings for the EV, in most cases it was more expensive. Gas prices were lower for the testing as it was done over 3 years, but once government has to spend trillions to upgrade the grid and gas tax is lost as ICE diminishes the cost for EV will likely go up....way up.
https://driving.ca/features/shopping...fers-surprises
All this tells me is my prediction that PHEV may well be the answer is looking more and more likely.
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      06-27-2022, 12:47 PM   #369
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Our EV sees 90% of the miles we drive these days. Feels like setting money on fire driving a gas car, with prices where they are.

I've only driven the M3 on the race track and to/from the race track this year. The M5s only see use if one of us is already out in the i3 somewhere.

I have no doubt EVs are going to take off like wildfire once the public gets comfortable with them. They're just absurdly better for how "normal" people (non driving enthusiasts) use cars. No need to warm up the motor before driving hard. 95% reduction in maintenance (in the 80,000 miles we've had the i3, we've replaced tires and washer fluid). Once you are out of the habit, being forced to routinely stop for gas feels like an inconvenience and a rip off-- and that far outweighs the inconvenience of the 1-2 times per year you need to use a public fast charger. Silence. Dramatic increase in simplicity should result in far better reliability, all else equal (as in, Toyota EV vs Toyota ICEV-- not Tesla vs Toyota ICEV).

Plus, it's just dirt cheap to drive. 100 miles in the i3 costs us ~$2 in electricity. 100 miles at 25mpg and $5/gallon (optimistic) costs $20. And that's before factoring in the lack of oil changes, spark plugs, coils, clutches, 02 sensors, CSBs, driveshafts, exhaust mounts, bla bla bla
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      06-27-2022, 02:36 PM   #370
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murf the Surf View Post
Interesting article on the ownership costs of EV's vs Hybrid and ICE. Done over 3 years and it seems that there really isn't any savings for the EV, in most cases it was more expensive. Gas prices were lower for the testing as it was done over 3 years, but once government has to spend trillions to upgrade the grid and gas tax is lost as ICE diminishes the cost for EV will likely go up....way up.
https://driving.ca/features/shopping...fers-surprises
I like this cost calculator: https://afdc.energy.gov/calc/
If you play around with it, most EVs don't break even for at least 10 years. People in the U.S. keep their new vehicles on average 8.4 years according to the Google. So you probably won't receive a direct financial benefit.
But buying an EV has to be so nice NEVER HAVING TO GO TO A GAS STATION EVER AGAIN!!! And presumably maintenance is much lower. Less parts to break, but a lot more finicky electronics, but still should be a lot less trips to the dealer or time spent in the driveway changing oil and tracking down various oil leaks (this is a BMW forum!!!). Those are huge benefits that must be so nice and need to have a value added to them. Myself I'm hoping for a medium/low cost EV (~$30k) that has a hatch, is fun to drive and doesn't look like a set piece from Blade Runner. Real world mileage of around 200 would get me through the week w/out having to recharge. A CPO BMW i4 in a couple years is looking good IMHO. Will see how it plays out. Would prefer more analog controls, but will have to let that go.
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      06-27-2022, 03:50 PM   #371
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StradaRedlands View Post
I like this cost calculator: https://afdc.energy.gov/calc/
If you play around with it, most EVs don't break even for at least 10 years. People in the U.S. keep their new vehicles on average 8.4 years according to the Google. So you probably won't receive a direct financial benefit.
But buying an EV has to be so nice NEVER HAVING TO GO TO A GAS STATION EVER AGAIN!!! And presumably maintenance is much lower. Less parts to break, but a lot more finicky electronics, but still should be a lot less trips to the dealer or time spent in the driveway changing oil and tracking down various oil leaks (this is a BMW forum!!!). Those are huge benefits that must be so nice and need to have a value added to them. Myself I'm hoping for a medium/low cost EV (~$30k) that has a hatch, is fun to drive and doesn't look like a set piece from Blade Runner. Real world mileage of around 200 would get me through the week w/out having to recharge. A CPO BMW i4 in a couple years is looking good IMHO. Will see how it plays out. Would prefer more analog controls, but will have to let that go.
Oh boy, now we are going to hear from the crowd that loves going to gas stations…and dealers…and negotiate-fighting for price, etc…
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      06-27-2022, 03:56 PM   #372
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Oh boy, now we are going to hear from the crowd that loves going to gas stations…and dealers…and negotiate-fighting for price, etc…
I get gas 1-2 times a month so not fun, but usually no worse than picking up Chinese food.

Going to the dealership sucks, I will give you that but how is it good that the trend is going towards not be able to negotiate price? You were ALWAYS free to pay MSRP without negotiating.
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      06-27-2022, 04:15 PM   #373
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I'm all for more options, more competition, etc. I can't say that I'll never have an EV in my household. EVs do make sense for many (especially non "car people") and they'll only get better.

I do get that they are cheaper to maintain. My biggest concerns are battery life, electronics issues, and God forbid, a motor/drivetrain replacement. Battery life degrades and with that so does acceleration over time. EVs are full of electronics and like our phones, computers, TVs, etc. will become quickly obsolete and non-supported. Much of the motor/drivetrains are not serviceable so if you have a problem, you're replacing that system as a whole. Battery and motor/drivetrain replacements are massively expensive and I don't see most people could afford something like that.

I also have a very very hard time believing that EVs will dominate anything any time soon given the huge reliance in this country on trucks and SUVs. Yes, Ford has developed the Lightning and it can tow, but it's capacity to tow to severely limited. We're likely a decade or more away from light truck being able to really tow useful distance. A heavy truck? Decades away. Not until heavy trucks can go 500 miles+ on a single charge and be charged up in 30 minutes or less would this become viable.

My hunch is that as EVs become more prevalent, it's dirty secrets and cost of ownership will be more impactful than currently seen. Most folks that own EVs are generally in the upper 10% of households in terms of income. I don't see how the majority will be able to afford EVs and their limited life cycle compared to an ICE vehicle.

Automakers are pushing for EVs not because it's better for the environment. They see them as being cheaper and easier to build, easier to control what the owner can and can't do in terms of servicing and where to service, and simply more profitable.

Lastly, government rebates on EVs won't last forever.
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Last edited by XutvJet; 06-27-2022 at 04:23 PM..
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      06-27-2022, 04:42 PM   #374
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XutvJet View Post
I'm all for more options, more competition, etc. I can't say that I'll never have an EV in my household. EVs do make sense for many (especially non "car people") and they'll only get better.

I do get that they are cheaper to maintain. My biggest concerns are battery life, electronics issues, and God forbid, a motor/drivetrain replacement. Battery life degrades and with that so does acceleration over time. EVs are full of electronics and like our phones, computers, TVs, etc. will become quickly obsolete and non-supported. Much of the motor/drivetrains are not serviceable so if you have a problem, you're replacing that system as a whole. Battery and motor/drivetrain replacements are massively expensive and I don't see most people could afford something like that.

I also have a very very hard time believing that EVs will dominate anything any time soon given the huge reliance in this country on trucks and SUVs. Yes, Ford has developed the Lightning and it can tow, but it's capacity to tow to severely limited. We're likely a decade or more away from light truck being able to really tow useful distance. A heavy truck? Decades away. Not until heavy trucks can go 500 miles+ on a single charge and be charged up in 30 minutes or less would this become viable.

My hunch is that as EVs become more prevalent, it's dirty secrets and cost of ownership will be more impactful than currently seen. Most folks that own EVs are generally in the upper 10% of households in terms of income. I don't see how the majority will be able to afford EVs and their limited life cycle compared to an ICE vehicle.

Automakers are pushing for EVs not because it's better for the environment. They see them as being cheaper and easier to build, easier to control what the owner can and can't do in terms of servicing and where to service, and simply more profitable.

Lastly, government rebates on EVs won't last forever.
Excellent and balanced post.
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