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      06-28-2022, 07:52 AM   #1
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Engine swap

So as we've seen - as these cars become older, sometimes before they become older, people swap engines. e.g E30 with S54 or S65 swaps, E46 with S65 swaps, LS swaps etc.

I wonder when we will see F22 with maybe the S58 swap or even the B58tu swapped in? It can't be impossible, just a little costly. I know the B58 when tuned is very capable, but it's just a little food for thought.
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      06-28-2022, 08:38 AM   #2
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Why not a 2JZ? Anything is possible.

There's a couple Z3M or Z4M coupes with S85 V10 swaps floating around.

I'd love a NA engine in these cars.

Last edited by freakystyly; 06-28-2022 at 08:50 AM..
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      06-28-2022, 09:16 AM   #3
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I could probably buy 2 clean E46 M3’s for the price of swapping in a S54 engine in the 228i… nonetheless, that’s the motor I’d want for NA. Probably more practical to do a built N20 though.
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      06-28-2022, 11:22 AM   #4
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I get what you're saying but the N55 is great engine I don't see people swapping it out any time soon---I'm thinking of cars I'd love to pull an N55 out of a wrecked M235i and swap into something lighter and more agile...

Though if I did a swap build on my F22, I'd go with a built S65 with ITB's [V8] mated to the 6MT out of the E92 M3.

If I wanted more power, then we'd look at Forced Induction.
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      06-28-2022, 02:32 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freakystyly View Post
I'd love a NA engine in these cars.
I wouldn't mind that, either.

What would you use for the ECU, do you think?

Quote:
Originally Posted by atek View Post
Though if I did a swap build on my F22, I'd go with a built S65 with ITB's [V8] mated to the 6MT out of the E92 M3.
That's the one I'd go with if a swap-to-NA was practical. I saw that Active Autowerke has a built short block for $20K, along with a $7K core charge.
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      06-28-2022, 02:40 PM   #6
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Love the NA ideas - I have a Mk2 GTI with a built hi comp 20v 2.0L motor running 48mm ITBs and stand alone ECU and it's fun (redlines @ 9000). I think any NA application in this car will have to change the ratios in our transmissions or bring along a transmission - our ratios aren't meant for NA cars.
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      06-28-2022, 04:02 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WolfGTI View Post
Love the NA ideas - I have a Mk2 GTI with a built hi comp 20v 2.0L motor running 48mm ITBs and stand alone ECU and it's fun (redlines @ 9000). I think any NA application in this car will have to change the ratios in our transmissions or bring along a transmission - our ratios aren't meant for NA cars.
I think the principal NA-swap problem (or any swap, for that matter) is how the F22's control modules would be completely and effectively integrated with what I assume would be a different ECU/DME. If the F22's engine controller is kept, then the problem would be reversed.

I know little about this subject, but my guess is that it's a non-trivial problem. It would be great if someone here has experience in this area.

I know a fellow who, at least as of a few years ago, had a side gig at a community college in the Boston area where he taught BMW techs the ins-and-outs of this sort of thing as it related to the work they did in dealership service bays. I can track him down if anyone is actually serious about spending what's likely to be a very large sum on a swap that could easily reduce the value of their car.
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      06-28-2022, 04:23 PM   #8
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Agreed, the mechanicals likely aren't as complicated as trying to save the electricals... you may need to just shell out the car and start from scratch?

There's a sort of local race shop that builds race cars, when I had an E90 they had an E90, now they have an F22, I think it's a 235iR tho. I haven't had a reason to visit them for maintenance work so I don't know what their build is exactly.

Last edited by freakystyly; 06-28-2022 at 04:35 PM..
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      06-28-2022, 05:03 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dradernh View Post
Active Autowerke has a built short block for $20K, along with a $7K core charge.
I guess I shouldn't be surprised at that number.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dradernh View Post
I think the principal NA-swap problem (or any swap, for that matter) is how the F22's control modules would be completely and effectively integrated with what I assume would be a different ECU/DME. If the F22's engine controller is kept, then the problem would be reversed.

I know little about this subject, but my guess is that it's a non-trivial problem. It would be great if someone here has experience in this area.

I know a fellow who, at least as of a few years ago, had a side gig at a community college in the Boston area where he taught BMW techs the ins-and-outs of this sort of thing as it related to the work they did in dealership service bays. I can track him down if anyone is actually serious about spending what's likely to be a very large sum on a swap that could easily reduce the value of their car.
I haven't done many swaps on modern BMW's, though I have done a few engine swaps on various Japanese and American cars.

I will see the complexity of the swap comes down to 3 things :

1. Main use of the car / Main goal of the car
2. Do you want AC?
3. Will the car be street worthy

Depending on these, sets up how one would build the car/wiring harness.

If its just a track car, Stand alone ECU is best.
If you want to dual purpose, track and some street, Stand alone still be best, but you may be able to make it work with a stock S65 DME that's tuned, and that is where the complexity comes in. Do you want or need extra driver aids and safety? Or the engine configuration setting?

I know the shop that did the M5 V10 in the 1M did manage to make all the OEM systems work, so it should be possible with the right knowledge.
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      06-28-2022, 06:14 PM   #10
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Bit of a brain-dump down below here (which I'm prone to do after a few espressos ), and I freely acknowledge that YM(and opinion)MV.

Re: doing a swap while turning the car into a pure track/race car

Based on my experience, for reliability while leaning hard on the car, that would argue for a motorsports-quality standalone ECU (e.g., MoTeC GPRDI-M182 at ~$8K) and a custom harness after removing whatever was necessary from the car to accommodate it. (The more the better in that regard so as to reduce the car's overall weight.) I don't know what that would cost, but in the early 00s the custom mil spec wiring harness and connectors in my E36 M3 race car cost $22K. Crazy, right? But the car won a pro-am championship and was reliable as a rock when I ran it in time trials and during track days. From what I was able to learn, the car's only DNFs during its four years of racing Motorola/Speedvision Cup and Grand-Am were due to wrecks.

I'm not sure what the point would be of pouring money into a heavy car like ours for that sort of duty. One of the problems is that these cars can't be made light; they're going to be heavy no matter what we do. Who's going to want it when you're done with it; used (used-up, more likely) track/race cars aren't worth much at all, despite what some owners imagine when they first offer them for sale. For example, I sold my race car for $32,000; the race shop informed me pre-sale that to duplicate the car starting with a $5K E36 M3 would cost $150K. That did not come as a surprise, and I was pleased to receive $32K for the car, even though it was in tip-top condition, unlike 90%+ of used race cars out there. I don't want to think how much money I put into that car – if I could get that money back and give the TTs and track days back, I'd have enough for a GT3, most of the days at the track, and a major upgrade in the neighborhood I now live in (which itself isn't too shabby).

––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––– –

Re: doing an engine swap for an F22 that's going to continue to be used on the street

tldr; Keep it simple – just hand your bankcard over. Seriously. My perspective is having the swap done by professionals who know what they're doing, have done it before with a contemporary BMW, charge an appropriate amount for the quality of the services they provide, and hand you a car back that has or is soon going to have problems. IOW, a seamless conversion, which is much harder to achieve than it might seem. For me, a non-handy person, this is not a DIY project. I've seen what those frequently end up looking like, and they were all much simpler than this would be. Completely off the top of my head, I'd suggest something in the neighborhood of $25-30K at a minimum to swap something into an F22 that will then still be just like it was but with the new engine. That's a semi-educated guess, so take it for what it's worth, as prices, complication, and unforeseen problems may not be what I'm projecting. After that, of course, there's suspension, wheels and tires, brakes, built diff, trans and diff coolers(?), and on and on and on.
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      06-28-2022, 07:53 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dradernh View Post
Re: doing a swap while turning the car into a pure track/race car

Based on my experience, for reliability while leaning hard on the car, that would argue for a motorsports-quality standalone ECU (e.g., MoTeC GPRDI-M182 at ~$8K) and a custom harness after removing whatever was necessary from the car to accommodate it. (The more the better in that regard so as to reduce the car's overall weight.) I don't know what that would cost, but in the early 00s the custom mil spec wiring harness and connectors in my E36 M3 race car cost $22K.
Funny you should mention -- I'm in the middle of a similar DIY project, so I'm keenly aware of the costs (there's schematics, harness diagrams, and parts lists here).

If you keep things just a hair below full motorosports-grade, you can get away with ~7-8K in parts, plus many many hours of labor. (But hey, on the amateur level, our own labor's free!). A full-blown motorsports system, with proper traceability, and AS connectors for every single 2-pin sensor, can easily double that.

The price I mentioned still gets you a decent setup with a PDM, solid-state everything (including battery disconnect), standalone ECU (think Link/MaxxECU/ECUMaster/etc), CANbus-controlled everything (just a single keypad, no switches), Deutsch connectors (not necessarily Autosport everywhere), Raychem sheating and boots for transitions, etc.
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      06-28-2022, 08:37 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WolfGTI View Post
I wonder when we will see F22 with maybe the S58 swap or even the B58tu swapped in? It can't be impossible, just a little costly. I know the B58 when tuned is very capable, but it's just a little food for thought.
The swap itself is the easy part. Getting all to work electronic would be monumental. Even these more basic entry level BMWs are crazy complex in terms of how all the electrical systems talk.

The B58tu would be the easiest. I think the valvetrain is basically the same as the earlier B58s. It's just that the head itself is a bit different. The short block is the same. I really don't see the point as the original B58 is plenty potent with just a simple turbo upgrade. Same with the N55. A Pure Stage 2 turbo and fuel mods and you're looking at 500-600whp. That's a ton of power for a 3,500-3,650lb car.

As for the S58, why? The cost of alone, even used, would make it pointless as you could simply buy a used M2/3/4 for what it would take to MAYBE get it all to work correctly in an F22.
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      06-28-2022, 08:41 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msendit View Post
Funny you should mention -- I'm in the middle of a similar DIY project, so I'm keenly aware of the costs (there's schematics, harness diagrams, and parts lists here).

If you keep things just a hair below full motorosports-grade, you can get away with ~7-8K in parts, plus many many hours of labor. (But hey, on the amateur level, our own labor's free!). A full-blown motorsports system, with proper traceability, and AS connectors for every single 2-pin sensor, can easily double that.

The price I mentioned still gets you a decent setup with a PDM, solid-state everything (including battery disconnect), standalone ECU (think Link/MaxxECU/ECUMaster/etc), CANbus-controlled everything (just a single keypad, no switches), Deutsch connectors (not necessarily Autosport everywhere), Raychem sheating and boots for transitions, etc.
I hear you clearly, and I'm happy to acknowledge that motorsports-level gear isn't an absolute requirement when preparing a car for serious track or club racing duty.

I know there are meaningful ways to reduce the cost of a 'go to the pros for a top-of-the-line result'. My experience was that very few amateurs were capable of achieving an acceptable outcome while doing that. Most who did succeed were club racers with significant aptitudes for the tasks they confronted and with the necessary resources to tackle their projects no matter the problems that arose. That sometimes included the assistance of capable shops with their attendant costs.

Generally, the audience on this forum, however, and with few exceptions, hasn't appeared to have previously engaged with automobile modifications at this level. The purpose of my post was to offer some perspective on the scope of the task involved when submitting an F22 to major surgery, especially in terms of the potential expense involved. Those numbers were meant to be general possibilities of what an owner might have to confront should he go all-in during a major upgrade to his car.
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      06-28-2022, 10:11 PM   #14
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Price in this matter is very subjective, all things considered. Shop A (in one persons state) may charge 175/hr for labor while shop b (in another persons state) charges 220/hr for labor on top of differing parts costs based on suppliers and shipping rates.

Which is why I used the example of it really comes down to how the car will be used.

Like some mentioned, full race-spec is very expensive and takes a keen eye to achieve, and has limited use.

Semi-race is a little to cheaper to achieve and maintain

Street, very hard to achieve if you want creature comforts. And will cost the most but net you the most unique outcome.

Now for the argument of potential costs vs buying a higher spec'd car from BMW - the main point against this is simple; uniqueness.
People don't take on this scope of project for cost to performance.
They take it on for having a super special car that no one else has, that you designed and thought of yourself; so to speak. These type of cars rarely get built with the thought of "will I get my money back".

I also understand the majority of the users here are older gentleman that don't turn wrenches and are keen on ROI.

Again, as long as you're looking for Smiles per gallon as opposed to anything else, you'll be happy.
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      06-29-2022, 09:22 AM   #15
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Just to clarify - I am not looking to swap my engine - just wanted to see people's thoughts and get a little discussion going.
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      06-29-2022, 11:48 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WolfGTI View Post
Just to clarify - I am not looking to swap my engine - just wanted to see people's thoughts and get a little discussion going.
Anything is possible assuming you've got the money and someone that knows and code everything. It just doesn't make a whole lot of sense as you can already make a M235 or M240 a 10 second car with about $10K of power mods. It would be the far cheaper and easier route to go vs engine swaps.
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      06-29-2022, 12:53 PM   #17
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Agreed, but something like this would not be about speed - more like uniqueness.

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Anything is possible assuming you've got the money and someone that knows and code everything. It just doesn't make a whole lot of sense as you can already make a M235 or M240 a 10 second car with about $10K of power mods. It would be the far cheaper and easier route to go vs engine swaps.
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      06-29-2022, 04:37 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XutvJet View Post
Anything is possible assuming you've got the money and someone that knows and code everything. It just doesn't make a whole lot of sense as you can already make a M235 or M240 a 10 second car with about $10K of power mods. It would be the far cheaper and easier route to go vs engine swaps.
N55 and B58 are great powerplants! Could even get to that point for less if you do your own work.

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Agreed, but something like this would not be about speed - more like uniqueness.
100% agree, custom built cars are about uniqueness over anything else.
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      06-29-2022, 08:55 PM   #19
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A V10 in a Z4 would for sure be unique, and probably really, really expensive.

If you want a relatively cheap Shelby Cobra homage this would probably be much more affordable;

https://www.monstermiata.com/
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      06-29-2022, 11:27 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kernel Kurtz View Post
A V10 in a Z4 would for sure be unique, and probably really, really expensive.

If you want a relatively cheap Shelby Cobra homage this would probably be much more affordable;

https://www.monstermiata.com/
For noise and stoplight entertainment the V8 Miata variants are great fun, but for speed around an autocross course or balanced track work a 2.0 Duratec swap from one of the UK engine builders producing 300bhp in a fairly reliable NA package, fits the Miata well. The problem with the V8s is weight and weight distribution, reducing the agility significantly.

Another example of this is a friend of mine has a 5.0 Ford V8 in a Lotus 7 clone (an S5 chassis, so about 120mm wider and 430mm longer than the standard S3 chassis), about 300RWHP and more than 300 lbft of torque, with a weight of around 800kg / 1800lbs, it is in 3 second 0-100km/h territory. I have a Caterham 7 (an S3 Lotus 7 chassis) with 210bhp at the crank and 150lbft of torque, but it weighs 540kg and is officially rated at 3.8 seconds for 0-100km/h.

Around an autocross course my light car is significantly faster, with my son as an experienced autocross driver it was 5 seconds faster than the V8 Lotus 7 and also a Nissan GTR on slicks in the 2015 Canadian Nationals (also an experienced driver) and he took the MOD class win. At the time and possibly still now, perhaps the fastest road-legal autocross car in Canada, although I’m nowhere near as fast in it as my son.

Less weight and a screaming high specific output engine is the way to go, in my opinion.
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      06-30-2022, 11:08 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by aerobod View Post
For noise and stoplight entertainment the V8 Miata variants are great fun, but for speed around an autocross course or balanced track work a 2.0 Duratec swap from one of the UK engine builders producing 300bhp in a fairly reliable NA package, fits the Miata well. The problem with the V8s is weight and weight distribution, reducing the agility significantly.

Another example of this is a friend of mine has a 5.0 Ford V8 in a Lotus 7 clone (an S5 chassis, so about 120mm wider and 430mm longer than the standard S3 chassis), about 300RWHP and more than 300 lbft of torque, with a weight of around 800kg / 1800lbs, it is in 3 second 0-100km/h territory. I have a Caterham 7 (an S3 Lotus 7 chassis) with 210bhp at the crank and 150lbft of torque, but it weighs 540kg and is officially rated at 3.8 seconds for 0-100km/h.

Around an autocross course my light car is significantly faster, with my son as an experienced autocross driver it was 5 seconds faster than the V8 Lotus 7 and also a Nissan GTR on slicks in the 2015 Canadian Nationals (also an experienced driver) and he took the MOD class win. At the time and possibly still now, perhaps the fastest road-legal autocross car in Canada, although I’m nowhere near as fast in it as my son.

Less weight and a screaming high specific output engine is the way to go, in my opinion.
That's all fine and dandy if you're building an autocross only car. Which again points back to : the main use of the car.

Though like you mentioned, on the street and stop light to stop light, your S7 would be worlds slower and not nearly as fun, though makes up for it in the handling (which depending on your location, is either useful or useless. here in flat Texas power is king, where as in the mountains handling and braking are king). Just comes down to driver/use preference.
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      07-01-2022, 10:36 AM   #22
aerobod
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For a fast car point-to-point on any road or track, the easy bit is the acceleration, the turning and stopping take a lot more work, but that being said, if ultimate acceleration is the main goal, the F22 is a poor starting point, being both too heavy and too engine bay space constrained at the same time.
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