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      11-18-2020, 01:11 AM   #1
abcfgh
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OEM M Sport Pads vs Ferodo DS2500 vs Hawk HPS 5.0

The stock pads and rotors front and rear on my M235i are pretty much metal on metal so I'm purchasing replacements soon, but was hoping to have a noticeable improvement in braking. While the stock rotors/pads were decent, it was possible to start cooking the pads and get brake fade with prolonged aggressive driving, but especially with repeated stops from triple digit speeds. With the OEM pads, I'm basically always managing the brakes if driving aggressively and using them at maybe 6-7/10th's, but it'd be nice to have a little upgrade and bump that up to maybe 8-8.5/10th's. The car isn't going to be seeing any track time, but will be seeing very aggressive street driving. Since I tend to run through pads rather quickly, I'll be purchasing from FCP Euro and these 3 pads are pretty much my only choices.

Does anyone have direct experience comparing:

1. OEM M Sport Pads vs. Ferodo DS2500
2. OEM M Sport Pads vs. Hawk HPS 5.0
3. Hawk HPS 5.0 vs. Ferodo DS2500

Specifically, I'm interested in:

1. Ability to withstand heat / less fade? I'd like to minimize fade.
2. How is the noise? I'm okay with a little bit of noise.
3. How is the bite? Modulation? Not overly concerned with this, but curious.
4. How is the dust? Not really concerned with this either.

With the stock pads, I've noticed that when fresh they can definitely have a slightly grabby bite initially, but do fade with repeated braking abuse. I'm fairly sensitive and can feel when the brakes get down to less than a 1/3rd of pad material, well before any sensors let you know....where you start to get a bit of juddering and more fade under aggressive braking. From what I can gather, the Ferodo DS2500 seem better suited and the more aggressive pads, but I'd still like to hear feedback especially as they compare to OEM pads. I am not a fan of EBC Green/Red or even Yellow stuff pads, which can supposedly handle track, except they can't even handle aggressive street driving. I'm not a fan of pads that claim to be able to do light track duty, but really don't hold up at all.

I'll be going with the Zimmerman 2-piece rotors, which seem to be a great value as they cost less than the OEM 1-piece and I've had good luck with Zimmerman in the past.

Also, how critical is it to replace guide pins, spring/clips, and dust seals? They're all super expensive (each $30-40/piece) and I'm not going to replace them if it's not necessary. Can easily add up to over $400 just to replace all of these.

Lastly, any preferred brake pad pastes? I was thinking about going with the Permatex Ceramic Extreme stuff. What's the difference and pro's/con's of silicon and ceramic paste? Tips on installing everything? Will be my first time doing it on a car. I've worked on all my motorcycles in the past.

Thanks in advance!

Last edited by abcfgh; 11-18-2020 at 01:16 AM..
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      11-18-2020, 05:47 AM   #2
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I have FerodoDS2500 + Motul RBF600 and stainless brake lines.

Iīve used them in track days (short track, no big braking zones, max from 130Km/h to 40Km/h or so) and no fadding at all.

They hae a bit more bite than stock, they bite OK in cold, and after two small brakes, you feel they brake more.

Im pretty happy for daily driving + ocassional trac (i havent tested them in a track with bigger braking zones).

About dust, I donīt see any relevant difference compared to stock ones, maybe a bit more, but as I have black alloys, they are always dusty for me
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      11-18-2020, 12:37 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pbdeed View Post
I have FerodoDS2500 + Motul RBF600 and stainless brake lines.

Iīve used them in track days (short track, no big braking zones, max from 130Km/h to 40Km/h or so) and no fadding at all.

They hae a bit more bite than stock, they bite OK in cold, and after two small brakes, you feel they brake more.

Im pretty happy for daily driving + ocassional trac (i havent tested them in a track with bigger braking zones).

About dust, I donīt see any relevant difference compared to stock ones, maybe a bit more, but as I have black alloys, they are always dusty for me
Thanks, just the kind of answer I was looking for. Also wondering, what area do you live (for temperature)? Have you experienced much noise? I'm in LA so it rarely goes below 45 Fahrenheit around here.

I want to make sure they're not a downgrade from the OEM pads, which some aftermarket pads actually can be. You won't be catching me putting ceramic pads like from Akebono on any car....terrible for brake performance haha, great for no dust and long life though.
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      11-18-2020, 01:51 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abcfgh View Post
The stock pads and rotors front and rear on my M235i are pretty much metal on metal so I'm purchasing replacements soon, but was hoping to have a noticeable improvement in braking. While the stock rotors/pads were decent, it was possible to start cooking the pads and get brake fade with prolonged aggressive driving, but especially with repeated stops from triple digit speeds. With the OEM pads, I'm basically always managing the brakes if driving aggressively and using them at maybe 6-7/10th's, but it'd be nice to have a little upgrade and bump that up to maybe 8-8.5/10th's. The car isn't going to be seeing any track time, but will be seeing very aggressive street driving. Since I tend to run through pads rather quickly, I'll be purchasing from FCP Euro and these 3 pads are pretty much my only choices.

Does anyone have direct experience comparing:

1. OEM M Sport Pads vs. Ferodo DS2500
2. OEM M Sport Pads vs. Hawk HPS 5.0
3. Hawk HPS 5.0 vs. Ferodo DS2500

Specifically, I'm interested in:

1. Ability to withstand heat / less fade? I'd like to minimize fade.
2. How is the noise? I'm okay with a little bit of noise.
3. How is the bite? Modulation? Not overly concerned with this, but curious.
4. How is the dust? Not really concerned with this either.

With the stock pads, I've noticed that when fresh they can definitely have a slightly grabby bite initially, but do fade with repeated braking abuse. I'm fairly sensitive and can feel when the brakes get down to less than a 1/3rd of pad material, well before any sensors let you know....where you start to get a bit of juddering and more fade under aggressive braking. From what I can gather, the Ferodo DS2500 seem better suited and the more aggressive pads, but I'd still like to hear feedback especially as they compare to OEM pads. I am not a fan of EBC Green/Red or even Yellow stuff pads, which can supposedly handle track, except they can't even handle aggressive street driving. I'm not a fan of pads that claim to be able to do light track duty, but really don't hold up at all.

I'll be going with the Zimmerman 2-piece rotors, which seem to be a great value as they cost less than the OEM 1-piece and I've had good luck with Zimmerman in the past.

Also, how critical is it to replace guide pins, spring/clips, and dust seals? They're all super expensive (each $30-40/piece) and I'm not going to replace them if it's not necessary. Can easily add up to over $400 just to replace all of these.

Lastly, any preferred brake pad pastes? I was thinking about going with the Permatex Ceramic Extreme stuff. What's the difference and pro's/con's of silicon and ceramic paste? Tips on installing everything? Will be my first time doing it on a car. I've worked on all my motorcycles in the past.

Thanks in advance!
I don't know if the charts in this post will help, but in the past I've used them (and others) as a general guide to what a buyer might expect as far as fade goes: https://www.2addicts.com/forums/show...&postcount=215.

Comparing the two, it looks like the Ferodo may be better suited to your needs.

I've not used Ferodos, but I've used Hawk's HT-10, DTC-60, and DTC-70. For "repeated stops from triple digit speeds", the HT-10 is the minimum Hawk pad I'd recommend. I doubt any of the 'lesser' pads are going to hold up to that sort of braking requirement, with the HPS 5.0 being the least of them. If it was me, I'd put the DTC-60s on and live with the noise.

I ran DTC-70s on the street for two years and managed to make it work. The only downside for me was the dust, which just meant more frequent cleaning with more effective wheel cleaners and brushes.

"how critical is it to replace guide pins, spring/clips, and dust seals"

You replace them when they need it. IIRC, BMW recommends the hardware be replaced at some fixed interval(s). Now that TIS is gone, I can't look it up.

Dust seals get replaced when they crack from excessive heat. If yours need replacing, it's quite possible the fluid seals will need replacing as well. Bimmerworld sells inexpensive kits that I assume work just fine. For example: https://www.bimmerworld.com/Front-4-...rt-Brakes.html.
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Last edited by dradernh; 11-18-2020 at 02:08 PM..
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      11-18-2020, 03:14 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abcfgh View Post
Thanks, just the kind of answer I was looking for. Also wondering, what area do you live (for temperature)? Have you experienced much noise? I'm in LA so it rarely goes below 45 Fahrenheit around here.

I want to make sure they're not a downgrade from the OEM pads, which some aftermarket pads actually can be. You won't be catching me putting ceramic pads like from Akebono on any car....terrible for brake performance haha, great for no dust and long life though.
In my area is rarely going below 45 Fahrenheit too (range 45-86 I would say).

Itīs for sure a valuable upgrade. Not a night and day upgrade, but I will replace my Ferodo DS2500 with another ones. They offer perfect compromise between daily and ocasional track.
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      11-18-2020, 04:56 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dradernh View Post

You replace them when they need it. IIRC, BMW recommends the hardware be replaced at some fixed interval(s). Now that TIS is gone, I can't look it up.

Dust seals get replaced when they crack from excessive heat. If yours need replacing, it's quite possible the fluid seals will need replacing as well. Bimmerworld sells inexpensive kits that I assume work just fine. For example: https://www.bimmerworld.com/Front-4-...rt-Brakes.html.
I see thanks. Yeah BMW recommends every 4 years. It's ridiculous how expensive those little pins and hardware are though. Hopefully no cracked dust boots.

As far as the Ferodo's, yeah I'm really curious to see how they compare. I just purchased it all from FCP Euro.

I will try to report back with my findings compared to OEM, barring in mind that the last 50% of pad and rotor life is quite a bit different than the first 50%. Same thing with replacing old tires. Need to make an apples to apples comparison....not used up to brand new haha as I'm sure quite a few folks do.
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      11-18-2020, 05:49 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abcfgh View Post
Hopefully no cracked dust boots.
Are you going to pop the pistons out far enough to check them?

Quote:
Originally Posted by abcfgh View Post
the last 50% of pad and rotor life is quite a bit different than the first 50%.
Because both act as heat sinks, that's going to happen when you're really leaning on the car. Going to the store, though, not so much.
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      11-18-2020, 07:33 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dradernh View Post
Are you going to pop the pistons out far enough to check them?


Because both act as heat sinks, that's going to happen when you're really leaning on the car. Going to the store, though, not so much.
I guess I'll have to. Is there a good thread you could point me to for that?
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      11-18-2020, 11:08 PM   #9
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Quote:
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I guess I'll have to. Is there a good thread you could point me to for that?
This post is the most informative one that I've seen here: https://www.2addicts.com/forums/show....php?t=1747800. There are no doubt generic Brembo caliper rebuild threads and videos available via a search.

In this thread there's more product information I collected when I was thinking of rebuilding my calipers: https://www.2addicts.com/forums/show....php?t=1683251.
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      11-19-2020, 12:40 AM   #10
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One thing you might find with the DS2500 pads is an increase in rotor wear. Although there are more abrasive pads out there (such as DS3000), I have found in use on a non-BMW about double the rotor wear rate compared with a standard road-orientated pad. Overall, a good pad for balanced road/track use in my experience, though.
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      11-19-2020, 01:06 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dradernh View Post
This post is the most informative one that I've seen here: https://www.2addicts.com/forums/show....php?t=1747800. There are no doubt generic Brembo caliper rebuild threads and videos available via a search.

In this thread there's more product information I collected when I was thinking of rebuilding my calipers: https://www.2addicts.com/forums/show....php?t=1683251.
Thank you!
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      11-19-2020, 01:16 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by aerobod View Post
One thing you might find with the DS2500 pads is an increase in rotor wear. Although there are more abrasive pads out there (such as DS3000), I have found in use on a non-BMW about double the rotor wear rate compared with a standard road-orientated pad. Overall, a good pad for balanced road/track use in my experience, though.
Thanks for the feedback. Good to know. If I need to replace them it'll be with FCP Euro's lifetime warranty.
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      11-19-2020, 10:30 PM   #13
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I like the Ferodo much better than Hawk (used both on track, but with different brake setups). They do get noisy with mostly street use, but a rebedding helps a lot. On track the Ferodo are much superior (Watkins Glen, big brake zones). And FWIW, Zeckhausen has hardware sets at $12/14 per axle ($26 for all 4, so not really that expensive). https://www.zeckhausen.com/catalog/p...ducts_id=20376
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      11-21-2020, 12:10 AM   #14
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I like the Ferodo much better than Hawk (used both on track, but with different brake setups). They do get noisy with mostly street use, but a rebedding helps a lot. On track the Ferodo are much superior (Watkins Glen, big brake zones). And FWIW, Zeckhausen has hardware sets at $12/14 per axle ($26 for all 4, so not really that expensive). https://www.zeckhausen.com/catalog/p...ducts_id=20376
Ooh thank you so much! I will definitely look into the Zeckhausen hardware. That sounds way more reasonable.

Any recommendations for aftermarket dust boots / piston seals?
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      11-21-2020, 09:20 AM   #15
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Quote:
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Ooh thank you so much! I will definitely look into the Zeckhausen hardware. That sounds way more reasonable.

Any recommendations for aftermarket dust boots / piston seals?
Same place (or that link above from Dradernh). I'm not nearly as deep into mods as some are on these boards, but Zeckhausen are my go to for brake parts and advice - 'Dr. Z' spent over a half hour talking thru my questions and making suggestions, and they have a pretty extensive catalog; if you don't see it, call and ask. Dradernh also links to some very good suppliers, especially if you are considering upgrading into real aftermarket stuff. Zeckhausen may also have better suggestions for your situation - street use brings in the additional complexity that the pads usually don't really heat up fully or stay at a steady heat range. I know FCP has a wonderful lifetime guarantee plan, but with brakes you can easily get into 'penny-wise/pound-foolish territory trying to save a few bucks - a lot of race pads (and the rotors they work on) wear very quickly if only used cold on the street, so a proper match might actually get you much longer life.
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