[cxp213]

Originally Posted by CP911

...
When I took delivery of my car at the BMW Performance Center, one of the driving instructors told me the stock pads are engineered to "perform as good as any aftermarket pad, but won't last as long as a dedicated track pad." Is this true?
...
I do not need absolute stopping power as I'm not going to win any trophies at a HPDE and I can just brake earlier. My main goals, in order are:

1. Having fun
2. Rotor preservation/cost
3. Minimizing hassle e.g. bedding in process, not being able to swap back to stock pads if needed, etc.
4. Reasonable performance/modulation on track and wide operating range so I don't have to worry if my brakes are cold when leaving the house.
5. Zero or minimal squeal (only going to tolerate minor squeal when cold/wet on the street)
...
Am I a good candidate for some aftermarket pads? If so, please recommend what you think would work well for me based on my requirements above. I'm open to any and all suggestions.

Thanks in advance!

Not true at all. Most OEM pads you'll find, aside from track-oriented or exotics-level vehicle, will not offer anywhere near the level of a true race pad. The grip will be much less with OE pads, which also will not be able to take as much heat/abuse or for as long. I guess it really depends on your level of driving, but from what I've seen, even novice drivers can glaze or disintegrate many OE pads if they start pushing the car. Race pads exist for a reason.

Swapping over to higher temp brake fluid certainly helps but doesn't make up for the lack of stopping power and heat resistance. Of course, if you're not really pushing the car on the track at all, just the fluid alone might be enough but highly doubtful that many enthusiasts (even if they don't track) will be satisfied with OE pads.

With that said, it really sounds like you don't do a whole lot of tracking so you wouldn't need a dedicated set of track pads, but I would also stray away from OE pads so you can get a bit more performance out of it. Since you want to minimize pad swaps, look into those that can handle some track abuse without being a full blown track pad. I'm a big fan of Hawk pads for their performance to price ratio and operating temperature; I recommend you look into HPS 5.0 (mostly street), HP Plus (mix street/track), or Street Race (more track). HP Plus and above should be able take anything you throw at it but will be quite noisy and dusty.

Keep in mind that more capable pads tend to dust more and be noisy so if that's of higher priority then just know you'll have to sacrifice performance.

[CP911]

Thank you, cpx! Dust is not a concern of mine. Even OEM pads create dust. The way I see it, either the wheels are freshly washed and clean, or they are dusty. Don't care how fast it happens, really.

I think something like the Hawk HP Plus (mix street/track) type of pad makes sense for my needs, but I'd like to hear about first hand experiences in terms of squeal and operating range on the street. Any other brands offering an ideal mixed street/track pad that someone can comment on from 1st hand experience?

Out of curiosity, has anyone out there pushed the BMW M Sport OEM pads on track to the point where there was an issue with wear, glazing, etc.? I'd just like to know what to expect should I choose to take the OEM pads out there on the track. If I'm going to melt them and glaze my rotors like I did with the WRX, then I'll just upgrade the pads immediately. Otherwise, if I'm just looking at accelerated wear and less stopping power, I can live with that.

Thanks again!

[m3driver999]

Originally Posted by CP911

Thank you, cpx! Dust is not a concern of mine. Even OEM pads create dust. The way I see it, either the wheels are freshly washed and clean, or they are dusty. Don't care how fast it happens, really.

I think something like the Hawk HP Plus (mix street/track) type of pad makes sense for my needs, but I'd like to hear about first hand experiences in terms of squeal and operating range on the street. Any other brands offering an ideal mixed street/track pad that someone can comment on from 1st hand experience?

Out of curiosity, has anyone out there pushed the BMW M Sport OEM pads on track to the point where there was an issue with wear, glazing, etc.? I'd just like to know what to expect should I choose to take the OEM pads out there on the track. If I'm going to melt them and glaze my rotors like I did with the WRX, then I'll just upgrade the pads immediately. Otherwise, if I'm just looking at accelerated wear and less stopping power, I can live with that.

Thanks again!

I've ran OE Pads and rotors at a track. They were OK for few laps, 7' 8', then pedal was less firm and there was some glazing/coloring of rotors/possible pad material transfer.

Since then have switched over to Powerstop drilled rotors and Powerstop PST 1609 track pads, and been satisfied with them. Great value for money as a 2nd set (+) have taken some abuse (+) repeatable stopping power (-) cold friction is lower than OE for street use.

Also running some HP Plus on an E90. (-) major squeal during daily use - not running shims or grease though (-) dusting, and gets everywhere on the car (+) stopping power equal or better than PST 1609 (+) can take track abuse. (-) Cold friction is less than OE.

The Powerstop set-up seems to do well as a dual purpose setup, at these ambients of 15+C; and no squeal; and average dusting (maybe less than OE) Though car is not a daily,

I'd say the OE pads are OK for 7/10ths 8/10ths track driving, but they don't build confidence as speeds improve. Dedicated tracks get better with heat - within their operating range.

[HP Autosport]

Originally Posted by CP911

Thank you, cpx! Dust is not a concern of mine. Even OEM pads create dust. The way I see it, either the wheels are freshly washed and clean, or they are dusty. Don't care how fast it happens, really.

I think something like the Hawk HP Plus (mix street/track) type of pad makes sense for my needs, but I'd like to hear about first hand experiences in terms of squeal and operating range on the street. Any other brands offering an ideal mixed street/track pad that someone can comment on from 1st hand experience?

Out of curiosity, has anyone out there pushed the BMW M Sport OEM pads on track to the point where there was an issue with wear, glazing, etc.? I'd just like to know what to expect should I choose to take the OEM pads out there on the track. If I'm going to melt them and glaze my rotors like I did with the WRX, then I'll just upgrade the pads immediately. Otherwise, if I'm just looking at accelerated wear and less stopping power, I can live with that.

Thanks again!

If you are considering the HP Plus, have a look at the Ferodo DS2500. The DS2500 has been very popular on the F8X M platform, which takes the same pads as the F2x using the 4 piston front and 2 piston rear calipers. Many local guys have good results at less brake demanding tracks like Buttonwillow running street tires. Noise is minimum, but that could differ car to car.

[cxp213]

Hard pass on the Ferodo DS2500. I was told that exact same thing and found out the hard way. You get less stopping power, just slightly less dust, and less heat resistance. HP Plus stops significantly better, and for cheaper I think, but Ferodos are much quieter so there's that.

[CP911]

Good discussion all! Really appreciate your input. Sounds like the PST1609 is the best of those 3 being mentioned, based on my needs anyway. I'd still love to learn more about other options out there. If price is not a concern, is there something out there that is considered more premium that can "do it all" i.e. street + track with no real downsides?

[bryan_G01]

Originally Posted by CP911

Good discussion all! Really appreciate your input. Sounds like the PST1609 is the best of those 3 being mentioned, based on my needs anyway. I'd still love to learn more about other options out there. If price is not a concern, is there something out there that is considered more premium that can "do it all" i.e. street + track with no real downsides?

no, look at snow tires, really good in snow, but wrong compound for summer.

pads are same, you can't have a high performance pad that does not leave dust. You cannot run a race pad without sounding like a garbage truck/ school bus. The ebc yellow pads are my go to for street with little track use, its perfect for a auto x, but on a real track day they still will fade a little.

Pads are nothing without a fluid change, and while your at it, change your lines.

[cxp213]

EBC Yellows are not meant to be used as track pads and even the Blues (EBC's "track" pads) can't keep up with HP Plus (mix pad). EBC Yellows are like StopTech Streets or Hawk HPS or Ferodo DS2500 -- they're all about the same and not much better than decent OEM pads.

[pikcachu]

Originally Posted by CP911

Okay, so #1 this thread is awesome. Awesome, but a bit daunting with all the options and consequences of running all of these different pads being discussed.

I am debating whether or not it's worth swapping to aftermarket pads when I perform a brake fluid flush (Motul RBF660) over the next few weeks in preparation for a 2-day HPDE at VIR.

When I took delivery of my car at the BMW Performance Center, one of the driving instructors told me the stock pads are engineered to "perform as good as any aftermarket pad, but won't last as long as a dedicated track pad." Is this true?

When I did a 2-day HPDE @ VIR in my bone stock WRX, I boiled the stock brake fluid, and after I got home I noticed my rotors had white colored streaks/lines going around them. Not sure exactly what this was, but it didn't look good. Can I expect the same thing from my OEM BMW pads and rotors even if using high-temp fluid?

I don't mind burning through the stock pads quickly since I don't drive many miles on the street with this car and I'll have saved myself the trouble of swapping to different pads to begin with. If I burn through them super quickly, then I'll go ahead and change to longer-lasting pads at that point to avoid swapping pads constantly.

I do not need absolute stopping power as I'm not going to win any trophies at a HPDE and I can just brake earlier. My main goals, in order are:

1. Having fun
2. Rotor preservation/cost
3. Minimizing hassle e.g. bedding in process, not being able to swap back to stock pads if needed, etc.
4. Reasonable performance/modulation on track and wide operating range so I don't have to worry if my brakes are cold when leaving the house.
5. Zero or minimal squeal (only going to tolerate minor squeal when cold/wet on the street)

Having not tracked my car yet, the OEM pads in my M Sport brakes feel outstanding on the street. The same pads also felt great in the M240i loaner they gave me at the Performance Center when we did the ~20 minute run on the short track. I didn't carry high speeds on the short track, but I sure pushed the brakes for what they were worth on every turn (which came up frequently being a short track) and they seemed to hold up just fine.

Am I a good candidate for some aftermarket pads? If so, please recommend what you think would work well for me based on my requirements above. I'm open to any and all suggestions.

Thanks in advance!

Get the EBC Yellowstuff... they are better than stock and cheaper... they come with a special coating so bedd in is not bad... you can install it for spring-summer...and when track season is over switch back to stock....or honestly run them year around...

They are very good on the street too so you can drive all year around if you wanted too.... you might get some squealing if you don't use enough brake pad grease on the backing plate and contact points

[CP911]

Has anyone else noticed the Powerstop PST-1609 pads as recommended above by m3driver999 have the same model number "1609" (and "1656" for the rear pads) as Performance Friction's "M Sport Performance" 1609 and 1656 pads? What is going on here? Is one company just OEM'ing the other's pad? Both are being advertised as Carbon-Metallic compounds for Track Day/HPDE use, but the PFC pads seem to come in two compounds: "08" and "11". Can anyone shed some more light on these pads?

[Maynard]

Originally Posted by CP911

......Out of curiosity, has anyone out there pushed the BMW M Sport OEM pads on track to the point where there was an issue with wear, glazing, etc.? I'd just like to know what to expect should I choose to take the OEM pads out there on the track. If I'm going to melt them and glaze my rotors like I did with the WRX, then I'll just upgrade the pads immediately. Otherwise, if I'm just looking at accelerated wear and less stopping power, I can live with that.

Thanks again!

Confirming that if you are tracking you will surely need s/t better than stock. I had no choice but to put the stock pads back on for second day of an HPDE, and they were toast after 3 sessions. I was running Hawk HPS pads prior, and generally happy w/ them for an entry-level. I had not been sure how much tracking I'd do, and they were good on the street so I didn't have to swap all the time; not hi-perf enough for this season, so starting to shop around.

[CP911]

How about rotors? Can the OEM M sport rotors take abuse from high-performance track or "race" pads? I know there are fancy drilled/slotted rotors out there, but do these just help with stopping power/bite or are they built with a certain type of steel that is meant to last longer and take the abuse from more aggressive pads?

Thanks again!

[bryan_G01]

I used to get the oem bmw drilled and slotted , they were like 1200$ for a set.

I did that twice and was like F this, lets try the cheaper options. Stoptech's were great.


I think fcp euro sells the OEM m perf rotors that fit the blue brakes. If so, lifetime warranty.

[john16443]

Originally Posted by CP911

Has anyone else noticed the Powerstop PST-1609 pads as recommended above by m3driver999 have the same model number "1609" (and "1656" for the rear pads) as Performance Friction's "M Sport Performance" 1609 and 1656 pads? What is going on here? Is one company just OEM'ing the other's pad? Both are being advertised as Carbon-Metallic compounds for Track Day/HPDE use, but the PFC pads seem to come in two compounds: "08" and "11". Can anyone shed some more light on these pads?

Those numbers are fairly common across several manufacturers, and are a reflection of the pad dimensional characteristics more than anything else I believe. Same numbers show up on Centric Posi Quiet's, as well as the Stoptech pads.

[Maynard]

OEM rotors should be fine for track work; supposedly the plain flat (internally vented) rotors are best for this. Advice I've gotten is to avoid the drilled b/c the holes turn into areas for stress risers (until you get up into the $500/wheel variety). Slotted ones are supposed to increase brake pad wear w/o much improvement, but some feel they help in some ways. And definitely consider fcpeuro for that lifetime replacement, if they have what you want.

[CP911]

Originally Posted by Maynard

OEM rotors should be fine for track work; supposedly the plain flat (internally vented) rotors are best for this. Advice I've gotten is to avoid the drilled b/c the holes turn into areas for stress risers (until you get up into the $500/wheel variety). Slotted ones are supposed to increase brake pad wear w/o much improvement, but some feel they help in some ways. And definitely consider fcpeuro for that lifetime replacement, if they have what you want.

Thanks. Stock rotors it is, then. At least for a track season or two.

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by CP911

Has anyone else noticed the Powerstop PST-1609 pads as recommended above by m3driver999 have the same model number "1609" (and "1656" for the rear pads) as Performance Friction's "M Sport Performance" 1609 and 1656 pads? What is going on here? Is one company just OEM'ing the other's pad? Both are being advertised as Carbon-Metallic compounds for Track Day/HPDE use, but the PFC pads seem to come in two compounds: "08" and "11". Can anyone shed some more light on these pads?

As john16443 indicated, the '1609' and '1656' values are FMSI numbers. They identify industry standard brake pad shapes. This was the first hit when I searched on FMSI; it's a useful and succinct introduction:

https://www.brakeandfrontend.com/fms...than-60-years/

Below is some data I pulled from the current Hawk Performance catalog (I used Hawk because I use their pads and had the catalog PDF handy). The left-hand image shows Hawk's catalog entries for the two FMSI numbers that are used in the F22 MSport brake calipers, front and rear. The right-hand image shows lists of Hawk's pad compounds, along with how they construct a product code for a specific pad.

You asked about PF08 and PF11. Those are a couple of motorsport compounds from Performance Friction. Catalogs from both Hawk and PFC (Performance Friction) can be found at their respective websites. PFC's catalog details the applications for the two pad compounds.

If you're going to get into track pads, I think it's worthwhile knowing your way around the manufacturers' catalogs. A qualified retailer that specializes in BMWs is a good resource, too. I recommend Bimmerworld - there are others, as well. For example, you may not be able to tell from reading PFC's catalog whether you'd prefer the PF08 or the PF11. A qualified retailer should be able to help you determine which is right for your use.

At the bottom are a couple of images from Hawk and Ferodo showing useful data regarding some of their compounds. It would be nice for us if every pad manufacturer produced data like this.

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by CP911

Thanks. Stock rotors it is, then. At least for a track season or two.

I agree with Maynard on this. At least that's been my experience. Other than pads and fluid, more brake cooling is what I need to better help my braking system.

It wouldn't hurt to check your rotors' remaining thickness with a micrometer from time-to-time. The minimum thickness is stamped on the rotors' edges. That data is also in the shop manual:

https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/f...kes/1VnYODanTi

FWIW, along with the pad compound you choose, how you use the brakes at the track will have quite a bit to do with how quickly you wear the rotors.

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by CP911

Am I a good candidate for some aftermarket pads?

If you're going to the track, I think you're a good candidate for race pads. Essex Parts has just produced a basic intro to track/race pads that you may find useful:

https://www.essexparts.com/news-blog...d-owners-guide.

Inside are a dozen or so references to brake system heat and the part pads play in managing it.

Essex also has a primer on when to replace discs that might help you:

https://www.essexparts.com/news-blog...-my-iron-discs.

I've changed my rotors out when surface cracks are wide enough to catch a fingernail dragged at a low angle across the face of the rotor. FWIW, most all of my track time has been in other BMWs running slotted rotors. I've never had a rotor crack to its edge before the surface cracks were already wide enough that I chose to replace it. That's been true for both plain and slotted rotors. FWIW, I have seen quite a few drilled rotors at the track that were cracked to their edges.

One other thing: how aggressive a pad you choose to run is related to how sticky your tires are. Any person or shop/retailer you might ask for pad advice should ask you what tires you intend to run. The two go together in that the more aggressive the pad, the grippier the tire needs to be. Otherwise, with an aggressive pad and, say, a street tire, you'd spend an inordinate amount of time in the ABS as the pad grips the rotor hard while the tire won't grip the track surface in a like fashion. I hope that makes sense.

[MikeG12]

I installed Hawk HP 5.0 pads with new BMW rotors and fluid flush today in my 228 w/o M Perf brakes. After bedding in per Hawk instructions, they seem to work good. The only problem I have now is the rear brakes have a scratching/squeaking sound. The rear brakes have a small drum brake inside the disk for the emergency brakes, and I'm wondering if that is where the problem is. Anybody else have this problem?

[overcoil]

Originally Posted by MikeG12

I installed Hawk HP 5.0 pads with new BMW rotors and fluid flush today in my 228 w/o M Perf brakes. After bedding in per Hawk instructions, they seem to work good. The only problem I have now is the rear brakes have a scratching/squeaking sound. The rear brakes have a small drum brake inside the disk for the emergency brakes, and I'm wondering if that is where the problem is. Anybody else have this problem?

It’s recommended to occasionally at a low speed to stop the car with the emergency brake to clean the surfaces.
Then depending but at over 50K mikes you’ll need to adjust the emergency brake if it’s anything like my mercedes.

[MikeG12]

I just found an article on Bimmerpost that says this noise is caused by the E Brake shoes contacting the shield. www://E90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=697365
Since the brake shoes do not rotate with the wheel, I'm guessing that the new rotor is touching the shield. This sounds like my problem. I'll see if it goes away by itself and if not, I'll check this.