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      07-17-2019, 11:14 PM   #1
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Buckets!

Look what came in today! After nearly a year of waiting, my custom Cobra Nogaro bucket seats arrived. Big shout out and THANK YOU to bimmerpost member Obioban for setting up a group buy with Cobra Seats in the UK and HMS Motorsports here in the US to make this happen. Thank you to Cobra and HMS as well for being good sports and dealing with all the back and forth emails until we got all the details right.

Except for accidentally including the lumbar support feature (see the dangling hand pump cord in pics), which I did not want for complexity and cost reasons, these guys absolutely nailed it! Working with them now to get replacement cushions made without the lumbar insert as the cushions are fastened with velcro and easily replaceable. *EDIT* Turns out I was mistaken and the lumbar support bag and hand pump are a completely separate and easily removable unit, attached only by velcro between the shell and seat cushion. I simply pulled off the back cushion and removed the lumbar support bag. All is well now! Even better, they are letting me keep the lumbar bags at no cost in case I ever decide I want to use them!

Custom specs were as follows:

- Black Dakota leather bolsters and head rest sections
- M Carbon Structure cloth (same as used in F80 M3/M4 base cloth seats) cushions and center sections
- Seat backs painted Melbourne Red to match my car's exterior color
- Cobra logo delete
- Light silver stitching
- standard 2" cushioning (1" and 3" are optional for either more head clearance or a more plush feel)

I'll end my post with a couple of preview pics:






Cheers!
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      07-21-2019, 09:02 AM   #2
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Beauties! assuming a rear seat delete is coming?
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      07-21-2019, 09:40 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan86 View Post
Beauties! assuming a rear seat delete is coming?
Thanks. That is the plan. I haven't used the rear seats yet, and my oldest is only 2.5 years old, so I don't see myself needing them in the foreseeable future. His car seat stays in my Nissan Armada... Poor kid is just going to have to wait until he's big enough to ride shotgun.

I haven't looked into rear seat delete kits or roll/harness bar options yet (I'm open to recommendations!), but I'm thinking for now I may just go with a Schroth Quick Fit system to keep things easy. Other than the marginal increase in roll-over safety for track days, I'm worried deleting the rear seats and adding a rear roll cage will yield net zero weight loss or maybe even a net gain, so not sure if it's worth the effort/cost. What do you guys think?

Otherwise, I also want to further reduce weight by going with a lightweight battery and CF hood all at the same time to keep the balance of the car in check. CF hood would just be painted body color as to keep the "sleeper" appearance...eventually some lighter wheels and some road/track coilovers as well. Oh yeah, louder exhaust too. . Should be done after all that unless I want to add more aero, but then I will start worrying about oil starvation of the B58 engine and I don't want to go down the path of engine mods. The car has plenty of power. Just needs to lose some weight.
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      07-21-2019, 09:52 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CP911 View Post
Thanks. That is the plan. I haven't used the rear seats yet, and my oldest is only 2.5 years old, so I don't see myself needing them in the foreseeable future. His car seat stays in my Nissan Armada... Poor kid is just going to have to wait until he's big enough to ride shotgun.

I haven't looked into rear seat delete kits or roll/harness bar options yet (I'm open to recommendations!), but I'm thinking for now I may just go with a Schroth Quick Fit system to keep things easy. Other than the marginal increase in roll-over safety for track days, I'm worried deleting the rear seats and adding a rear roll cage will yield net zero weight loss or maybe even a net gain, so not sure if it's worth the effort/cost. What do you guys think?

Otherwise, I also want to further reduce weight by going with a lightweight battery and CF hood all at the same time to keep the balance of the car in check. CF hood would just be painted body color as to keep the "sleeper" appearance...eventually some lighter wheels and some road/track coilovers as well. Oh yeah, louder exhaust too. . Should be done after all that unless I want to add more aero, but then I will start worrying about oil starvation of the B58 engine and I don't want to go down the path of engine mods. The car has plenty of power. Just needs to lose some weight.
That's awesome. I also am considering CF hood/roof long term. My car was a cpo deal of a lifetime, but came with a sunroof. While I like it, I'd like it better without it!

At that point, a harness bar/cage setup with buckets and seat delete would be in the picture
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      07-21-2019, 10:23 AM   #5
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... Poor kid is just going to have to wait until he's big enough to ride shotgun.
This made me wonder about how your new seats integrate the sensors that confirm the presence of an occupant to allow air bag deployment. Did they transfer the OEM sensors under the new seat A-surface?
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      07-21-2019, 02:01 PM   #6
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^^ He'll be coding out the side impact airbags, I'm sure, as most due with aftermarket bucket seats in cars w/ them.
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      07-21-2019, 02:19 PM   #7
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^^ He'll be coding out the side impact airbags, I'm sure, as most due with aftermarket bucket seats in cars w/ them.
My question is about front air bags.
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      07-21-2019, 02:31 PM   #8
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My question is about front air bags.
When you code out the side impact airbag, it also removes the "sensor" functionality that's built into the seat (so I'm told by my code'r). Regardless, the system is designed to trigger based off of speed and impact level, the sensor in the seat is a secondary feature, in terms of the module order. Front driver airbag deployment doesn't involve a seat sensor, in any car, afaik.
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      07-21-2019, 02:53 PM   #9
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Quote:
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Front driver airbag deployment doesn't involve a seat sensor, in any car, afaik.
That has not been true since the early 2000s for the front passenger. There are many references to read online about OCS (Occupant Classification System). For brevity, see the second sentence here which is generally true for vehicles, not just BMW.

http://casestudies.atlanticmotorcar....upancy-sensor/

My question was what the aftermarket bucket seat supplier did to maintain an active sensor input to the body controller so that one day his child (or any other passenger) will be able to ride shotgun and still be protected by a front airbag?
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      07-21-2019, 02:59 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sportstick View Post
That has not been true since the early 2000s for the front passenger. There are many references to read online about OCS (Occupant Classification System). For brevity, see the second sentence here which is generally true for vehicles, not just BMW.

http://casestudies.atlanticmotorcar....upancy-sensor/

My question was what the aftermarket bucket seat supplier did to maintain an active sensor input to the body controller so that one day his child (or any other passenger) will be able to ride shotgun and still be protected by a front airbag?
But that was the early 2000's, before the trend of side impact airbags became a "thing". I trust the guy who codes the features out of the car, as he directly speaks to the features in the module, which controls the airbags..

Occupancy sensor or not, if the vehicle is moving over the minimum threshold of speed, and an impact occurs, the front drivers airbag will/ should deploy. How would the car be travelling at speed without a driver?
That article didn't disprove that
^^, did it? I read it..
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      07-21-2019, 03:02 PM   #11
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Quote:
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But that was the early 2000's, before the trend of side impact airbags became a "thing". I trust the guy who codes the features out of the car, as he directly speaks to the features in the module, which controls the airbags..

Occupancy sensor or not, if the vehicle is moving over the minimum threshold of speed, and an impact occurs, the front drivers airbag will/ should deploy. How would the car be travelling at speed without a driver?
That article didn't disprove that
^^, did it? I read it..
There is a misunderstanding. This is not about side impact air bags nor the driver. This is about the front passenger air bag which will not deploy in the absence of sensor input to confirm occupancy, and then it tailors the rate of deployment to occupant size/weight.
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      07-21-2019, 03:37 PM   #12
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You guys are incorrect all around in regards to the airbag sensors, at least for US cars! See this thread I started a while back. The front and side impact airbags are indeed tied to the front passenger seat occupancy sensor. Read below:

European and US passenger airbag functionality is vastly different.

For F22 M240i:

Front passenger seat occupancy detection (Europe version):
The front passenger seat occupancy detection comprises a seat occupancy mat with conductor paths and pressure sensors. The resistance value of the pressure sensors is read in and evaluated in the Crash Safety Module (ACSM) (ACSM stands for "Advanced Crash Safety Module", hereinafter "Crash Safety Module").

The seat-occupancy detector is only used for the seat belt warning. If the seat occupancy mat detection indicates that the front passenger seat is occupied, the passenger belt must also be inserted in the belt buckle. The seat belt warning then goes out. If the crash safety module triggers the airbags, the corresponding airbags on the passenger's side are also triggered even if the front passenger seat is unoccupied.

Functional description
When a weight is placed on the seat, resistance in the seat occupancy mat changes. The seat is detected as not occupied up to a weight of approximately 12 kg (only applies if the seat-occupancy mat is installed between the cover and the foam insert of the seat). The seat occupancy detection function, however, also depends on the type of seat. e.g.: The material tension in a leather seat or a taut sports seat is already interpreted as pressure on the sensors. In such cases, a weight below 12 kg can trigger the "seat occupied" condition.

The resistance value is transmitted to the Crash Safety Module (ACSM) in a direct wire. For example, if the passenger's seat is recognised as being occupied without the seat belt buckle switch sending a signal, a fasten belt warning will be emitted by the Crash Safety Module.

************************************************** ************************************************** *************

Seat occupancy detector, front passenger (US version):
In accordance with the stipulations of the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) a small child in a child restraint system on the front passenger seat must be automatically detected. Upon detection, the airbags on the passenger's side are automatically deactivated (front passenger airbag, side airbag, knee airbag). The indicator light for front passenger airbag deactivation lights up.

Functional description
The front passenger seat occupancy detection consists of a seat occupancy mat with a capacitive sensor system and evaluation electronics. The occupancy of the front passenger seat is detected by measuring the capacitive resistance of the human body.

The electronic evaluation unit picks up the change and determines the corresponding status.

The airbags on the passenger's side (front passenger airbag, side airbag, knee airbag) are deactivated automatically when the seat is empty or a small child is detected in the child restraint system provided for this purpose. The indicator light for front passenger airbag deactivation lights up.

If a person of adequate size sitting correctly is detected, the airbags on the passenger's side are activated. The indicator light for the front passenger airbag deactivation does not light up.


The front passenger airbag could deactivate with a youth or adult seated in certain positions (indicator light for passenger airbag deactivation comes on). In these cases, the seat position must be changed until the indicator light for the front passenger airbag deactivation goes out (airbags on the passenger's side are activated).

Notice!

Electronic devices that are placed on the front passenger seat, e.g. laptop computers, mobile phones etc., could cause the front passenger airbag to activate.

This behaviour occurs primarily with devices that are connected to the vehicle electrical system via a USB cable or other charger adapter.

In vehicles with an acoustic seat belt warning, this could cause the warning signal to sound.

Moisture on the seat surface can also cause a faulty seat occupancy detection.

The evaluation electronics transmit status information to the Crash Safety Module (ACSM) in cyclical transmissions. Potential fault statuses are stored in the Crash Safety Module's (ACSM) fault memory.

If the seat occupancy mat is defective, the airbags on the passenger's side are automatically disabled (front passenger airbag, knee airbag, side airbag). The indicator light for front passenger airbag deactivation lights up.

Failure of the component:
If the front passenger seat occupancy mat fails, the following behaviour is to be expected:
Fault entry in the crash safety module (ACSM)
Airbag warning lamp lights up
Indicator lamp for front passenger airbag deactivation (only for US version)
Airbags on the passenger's side are automatically deactivated (front passenger airbag, side airbag, knee airbag)
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      07-21-2019, 03:41 PM   #13
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^^ Not sure why you believe I was incorrect. My question is completely consistent with the US system description. My question is what did your aftermarket seat supplier do to include the proper sensor in your new passenger seat so the car does not believe the seat is vacant and not deploy the passenger air bag if/when needed? They must have done something...I'm interested to know how they handled it.
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      07-21-2019, 03:45 PM   #14
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In regards to airbag activation with a child sitting in the passenger seat, this is not a concern, after all. All of the passenger airbags are DEACTIVATED by default if there is a sensor failure or presumably if there is no sensor in place at all, which is the case with aftermarket bucket seats.

It seems the only liability I would have if I install the bucket seats without a sensor is that there would be NO passenger airbag deployment at all under any circumstances. Since a child would not be at risk, I am slightly more comfortable with this, but an adult could be at risk without airbag deployment in normal street driving. On track, with an instructor wearing a helmet and with a harness, I'm guessing it is probably preferred to not have airbags going off in a crash anyways.


The only thing that was not addressed by the functional description of the passenger occupancy sensor for US vehicles is how the seatbelt warning light and corresponding audible chime is related. I'm assuming that like the much simpler European functionality, it would chime and warn me that the passenger belt is not on once the US-spec's capacitive sensor detects a "person of adequate size" sitting in the seat. I'm pretty sure a seatbelt emulator resistor would take care of this problem with the caveat that the system would always think the passenger is wearing their seatbelt even if he or she is not. Another potential liability, but I will just have to make sure my passengers always wear their seatbelt.
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      07-21-2019, 03:49 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sportstick View Post
^^ Not sure why you believe I was incorrect. My question is completely consistent with the US system description. My question is what did your aftermarket seat supplier do to include the proper sensor in your new passenger seat so the car does not believe the seat is vacant and not deploy the passenger air bag if/when needed? They must have done something...I'm interested to know how they handled it.
Well, partially incorrect with your comment: "This is not about side impact air bags nor the driver."

Indeed, it is about the side impact air bags as well as front and knee airbags. Again, all are tied to the passenger seat occupancy sensor.

To be clear, I was not trying to call out anyone in particular for being incorrect, as I know most people (especially engineers) don't like being told this. I simply wanted to clear the air from all the guessing and back and forth before I could post the actual functional description from BMW, as to not confuse anyone who was reading the comments up to that point.
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      07-21-2019, 03:55 PM   #16
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Quote:
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Well, partially incorrect with your comment: "This is not about side impact air bags nor the driver."

Indeed, it is about the side impact air bags as well as front and knee airbags. Again, all are tied to the passenger seat occupancy sensor.

To be clear, I was not trying to call out anyone in particular for being incorrect, as I know most people (especially engineers) don't like being told this. I simply wanted to clear the air from all the guessing and back and forth before I could post the actual functional description from BMW, as to not confuse anyone who was reading the comments up to that point.
No problem...I just meant in the previous posts for clarification that my question was not about side impact air bags. You are correct about the technology.

So, what did your company do to maintain front passenger seat occupant sensor viability? Will/did they transplant the OEM sensor array or do they have a customized/validated alternative?
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      07-21-2019, 03:56 PM   #17
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No coding is necessary, btw. Perhaps if I want to remove the airbag warning light on the dash (if that's even possible), but not necessary for safety reasons.

It is possible to remove the stock occupancy sensor, but I've only talked to one person who has had it removed and successfully transplanted to a new seat. The sensor mat is now glued to the foam within the seat cover, so it takes some skill and precision to get it cleanly removed. As I did not want to ruin my stock seats and did not want to pay $600 for a spare seat cover in hopes I could find someone to transplant the sensor, I decided to forego it altogether and will just use a seat belt emulator resistor instead. Again, I'm not too worried about airbag functionality now that I understand what is going on and given how I will be driving it i.e. only likely time an adult passenger will be in the car is on track when you really don't want airbags going off anyhow.
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Quote:
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No coding is necessary, btw. Perhaps if I want to remove the airbag warning light on the dash (if that's even possible), but not necessary for safety reasons.

It is possible to remove the stock occupancy sensor, but I've only talked to one person who has had it removed and successfully transplanted to a new seat. The sensor mat is now glued to the foam within the seat cover, so it takes some skill and precision to get it cleanly removed. As I did not want to ruin my stock seats and did not want to pay $600 for a spare seat cover in hopes I could find someone to transplant the sensor, I decided to forego it altogether and will just use a seat belt emulator resistor instead. Again, I'm not too worried about airbag functionality now that I understand what is going on and given how I will be driving it i.e. only likely time an adult passenger will be in the car is on track when you really don't want airbags going off anyhow.
With that usage, that makes sense. In that case, I would not do the rear seat delete, as by the time your child is old enough to sit up front (12+ years) you would want the air bag functional. Without that, staying in the rear would be his best situation.
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      07-21-2019, 04:09 PM   #19
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I guess the only thing I need to be concerned about is when my kid becomes a "person of adequate size" i.e. when he becomes big enough for what would have been the stock occupancy sensor to detect his presence and activate the airbags.

Does anyone know how big or a heavy a person needs to be for the airbags to activate in a stock seat setup? BMW's documentation doesn't give actual weight numbers... this concerns me a bit. Maybe someone out there has a child of a certain weight/height and can chime in on how their car's airbag detection works? For example, if you've driven your 12 year-old, do you notice the airbag deactivation symbol turning off?
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      07-21-2019, 04:13 PM   #20
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I guess the only thing I need to be concerned about is when my kid becomes a "person of adequate size" i.e. when he becomes big enough for what would have been the stock occupancy sensor to detect his presence and activate the airbags.

Does anyone know how big or a heavy a person needs to be for the airbags to activate in a stock seat setup? BMW's documentation doesn't give actual weight numbers... this concerns me a bit. Maybe someone out there has a child of a certain weight/height and can chime in on how their car's airbag detection works? For example, if you've driven your 12 year-old, do you notice the airbag deactivation symbol turning off?
I will try to ask one of our engineers tomorrow. We are a seat supplier to the auto industry, but I'm not an engineer.
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      07-21-2019, 04:15 PM   #21
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Quote:
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Does anyone know how big or a heavy a person needs to be for the airbags to activate in a stock seat setup?
This is just a guess, but I think the height and weight of a smaller adult (typically a woman) might well be in the ballpark; say, something like 4'10" and 95#.

I wonder if that requirement is standardized and available to the public, perhaps on NHTSA's site or somewhere similar.
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Drives: '18 M240i 6-speed Coupe
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Location: NW Indiana

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sportstick View Post
I will try to ask one of our engineers tomorrow. We are a seat supplier to the auto industry, but I'm not an engineer.
Thanks so much!

Maybe you are right, though, about leaving the rear seats in. I don't know how comfortable I am with the idea of a 6-12 year-old child riding in the front even without airbag activation, and I definitely don't want him in there if the airbags are activated and ready to deploy. I guess I was thinking the risk is not that great without airbag activation as I wouldn't be doing anything stupid with him in the car to be expecting a collision. That, and the, "Well, when I was growing up, we didn't have them..." mindset, which probably isn't the right way to approach this. Then again, are the rear seats legitimately safer than riding in the front with no airbag activation in a car of this size???
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Last edited by CP911; 07-21-2019 at 04:39 PM..
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