[MASHCT]

Howdy bub!

I am trying not to use the EQ until the speakers break in more. The Morels need some tweaking because you are so off-axis to them. From the front, you pick up more high end & the upper midbass freqs. So you need to tone those down a little bit. You can clearly hear this yourself by sitting in front & playing only the rears. They sound... off. But go to the back seat, sit between them facing the back window & they sound really, really good at the same volume, etc. Since they're only fill, tweaking the off-axis sound to tame the highs & mid-highs helps for you, the driver & I think passengers will not notice.

The woofers need no tweaks. However, I may up the 125hz adjustment slightly, just to present some better balance with the fronts.

The highs need ZERO tweaking, so far, on the CDTs up front. That tweeter is scary smooth & the highs (with the Xover set at 0) is perfect (to me) out of the box. The mids? My one buddy who was in my car, listening to Wish You Were Here - and he is a MAJOR PF fan - said, "Wow. Those mids are so warm." And then, when the sax is going full bore, he said "WHOA! That is so clear!"

I played an Andy McKee CD the other day. AWESOME all-acoustic instrumental guitar. I play guitar. It sounded like a guitar was actually IN the car. BLEW MY MIND.

So far, I am not feeling like I need to tweak any of the front settings.

Jim

I would tell you the under-seat woofers need no tweaking that I can tell. You will have to match the output from them, though, to your front speakers. It is easy to over-crank them - don't & you will be pleasantly surprised with really decent, clean - and surprisingly musical. Are they audiophile quality? I doubt it, but these are lower mid-bass frequencies down to maybe 30-35 at the lowest. They work very well for metal, rock, instrumental & progressive.

Originally Posted by BentZero

Mash, would you say that the eq is necessary? My plan was to go with the jl amp only. I guess i could try that when the time comes and add an eq if needed.

[MASHCT]

The B'tech Amp on Bavsound is $997.

$3 shy of $1000.

Originally Posted by Zooks527

Fair enough, however (still in fairness), you can find the "factory" tune with little effort (5 minutes?) and I spent under an hour in total tuning that by ear with my laptop in the car to get it the way I like it. The Bimmertech amp is also $850 (less with a group buy), not $1000, so it's the same or less than your setup.

But, yeah, "do what works for you" is always a good guide.

[MASHCT]

Multiple posts like yours are exactly what steered me clear of this amp. I was so close to buying one.

Until the lady at Bavsound said, and I quote, "The HK amp is actually quite good, so I would recommend you just replace the speakers."

That told me right there, Bavsound just might be _______________. (Fill in the blank with words of your choice.) LOL

Originally Posted by Fuctifeyeno

Unfortunately i'm finding this out the hard way, mine came with no tune out of the box and sounded like a Krako system on a wall display at an Auto Parts store from the 80's. I'm dating myself but you get the picture. i'm not a sound engineer by any stretch of the imagination so trying to adjust each speaker to "sound good" isn't working for me and one thing out of phase or alignment and its sounds like shite. I've literally went through almost 20 different tunes both manufacturer and user and "settled" on one that get me close to what i 'm looking for. On the products page should be listed, take the next 2 weeks off work so you can try and dial in this amp. Needless to say its coming out today, just can't justify the money and time spent trying have decent sound in my car.

[MASHCT]

By "tune" I am referring to the EQ settings & DSP.

If you have to use an EQ & DSP (that only sets delays to set the sound stage) to make a $1,000 amp produce sound that is satisfactory, well..

Yeah, I know I said tune to "make the amp sound good" but that is because folks are 1) upgrading the amp to the B'tech, which is where the "tune" capabilities reside & 2) usually have upgraded the speakers. So it could be they're trying to make the "speakers" sound better, by using the amp's settings.

I was just trying to keep it simply by saying "tune the amp to make it sound better" so I didn't have to be so specific. LOL

Also, I had said the just by replacing the HK amp with the JLA amp, the sound of the HK speakers, which I left in at first, VASTLY improved. Which does suggest that an amp alone, made with quality components & set up properly can sound good.

My guess is, had I used the B'tech, I would not have realized the same level of improvement. And I say that because whenever I read about the B'tech amp, all I read is "Where's my tune?" "I need a tune!" Which says, the amp itself doesn't sound good out of the box.

Jim

Originally Posted by djarchow

I just installed the bimmertech amp and see the potential for great sound, though my car is far from that point yet.

I don't get the argument being made about tunes. You aren't tuning the anp, you are tuning the sound of the speakers in the car. Any aftermarket amps you install are going to need some sort of adjustments for best sound even if at a minimum you are just adjusting levels between front and back and left to right. That's a tune, albeit a simple one. The advantage of an amp like the bimmertech over a regular amp like the JL is the dsp.. I agree that if you don't know what you are doing it is easy to make the system sound worse; but at least to me, having too much capability is better than having no adjustment at all like the stock system.

[MASHCT]

BZ - if you have the HK system, I would tell you that you should consider leaving the rear components in. Honestly, for rears, they'll be good enough. I got the Morels early & could not return them once I got my car & did the amp install. If I didn't already have those, I'd likely have left the rears in.

Because then my plan would have been to watch CDT website's "Buy Refurbished" for the ES Gold 42i. Then I would have bought those for the front & moved the current CDT HD42's to the rear later down the line.

Jim

Originally Posted by BentZero

Well, my argument is about needing special tools and knowledge to tune it. Of course I can adjust bass and treble myself. I can even fiddle with gains and x-over settings. It's the fine tuning that I don't want to deal with or the fear of messing it up. Actually, I'm pretty sure that I'd be capable if I looked into the tools needed and the process. It's just something I'm not interested in doing. I'm also confident that I could find a base tune, but I'd always think that I could be getting more out of the system.

Idk, I haven't completely ruled it out but my original plan was the JL amp, so I'm a bit partial to that path. The geek in me likes the ability to connect a laptop to the amp and fiddle with it though. It's the people that say that it sounds bad even after a tune that turns me off. Also, the jl puts out more power and Morel speakers are power hungry.

[BentZero]

Originally Posted by MASH65

BZ - if you have the HK system, I would tell you that you should consider leaving the rear components in. Honestly, for rears, they'll be good enough. I got the Morels early & could not return them once I got my car & did the amp install. If I didn't already have those, I'd likely have left the rears in.

Because then my plan would have been to watch CDT website's "Buy Refurbished" for the ES Gold 42i. Then I would have bought those for the front & moved the current CDT HD42's to the rear later down the line.

Jim

i have the hi-fi system. i didn't want to put money into the HK when I knew that I'd be upgrading the audio anyway.

[BentZero]

Originally Posted by Nelson@BimmerTech

It really amazes me the amount of incorrect and false information in this thread. Some of you clearly haven't spent time in e90post or f30post let alone a true car audio forum. Search for JBL MS-8, clearly most of y'all don't know about the auto-tuning fiasco it created in these forums years ago.

Let's start with Audio-Fischer. It's the parent company of Brax, Helix and Match. Our amp is based on their Match PP82DSP OEM amp/dsp modified internally for BMW Base Stereo and Hifi systems. What we did was to create a solution for those looking for a PNP solution with a pnp harness, bracket and a base tune. The vast majority of our customers are satisfied with the base tune which was created with reference tracks. I didn't create the tunes with pop and hip hop music For those that are not you have the option to make changes to it. It a very powerful DSP, if you don't know what you doing you can make sound worse than the stock system. The good thing is that you will have at least a base line tune from where you can start modifying to your taste without starting from scratch.

For those that don't know I happen to also run a car audio shop with my partner and we are authorized dealers of pretty much every HIGH end car audio brand and i'm also a SQ competitor in MECA and IASCA. Arc Audio, Morel, Dynaudio, Sinfoni, Zapco, Mosconi, Focal, Illusion Audio, Micro-Precision, Gladen, AudioFrog, Audio Development just to name a few....



I own 2 of their top of the line BRAX MX4 amps. http://www.crutchfield.com/S-nsKWtYl...rix-MX-4B.html






















One of my rta tuning rigs,








The heart of Premium Audio upgrade is it's DSP. Their standalone DSP which our upgrade is based from is the HELIX DSP and it cost $699 http://www.crutchfield.com/p_975HELIXDS/Helix-DSP.html which is what you're going to pay for 8 channel DSP from Mosconi, Alpine etc...

The PRO version cost $999 http://www.crutchfield.com/S-SY7osbB...x-DSP-PRO.html


I really can't believe that is being compared to JL amp without a built in dsp. Apples to Oranges my friends. Let's not even talk about AudioControl, they are finally releasing a dsp with T/A. I also carry their products and over the years it has given nothing but problems with hiss and alternator noise. Only decent product they have is lc6 and lc8. The only product that you can compare our amp to is http://mosconi-system.it/product/gladen-one-60-8-dsp/ which retails for over a grand and it does not include a pnp harness or bracket. I don't know about you but at $850 our upgrade is a real bargain for what you getting.

FYI the heart of any GREAT sounding sound system is the DSP. Without one you can't really be bragging how good your set up sounds. It might sound GOOD to your untrained ears but not to anyone that knows what a GREAT car audio sound system is to supposed to sound like . Like i often tell my customers a dsp with a proper tune can make a $300 mediocre speaker sound like a 2k high end speaker. I've heard 2k budget car system sound better than cars that had 20k worth of amp and speakers.

Zooks527 - i have a brand new Helix remote control http://www.audiotec-fischer.de/lng/en/urc-2a.html laying around, if you want it is yours for free.

Back to work i go, we're working on some new exciting products

Well, at no point did anyone say that you don't build a quality product. i didn't at least. However, you kind of proved my point. Without a tune I'm not going to get everything out of your solution. I primarily listen to hip hop and you basically stated that the base tune is not for me. :/

Then there's all that bling that you just displayed. While it looks dope it looks well beyond what I'd want to get into. As I said, I haven't ruled out the Bimmertech amp. I just know that I need to work getting it tuned or buying the equipment to tune it into my budget in the event that I'm not able to tweak it myself.

I like the idea of being able to tune it. It's the stories I hear of people not being able to tune it that give me pause though. That said, I also understand that you're going to hear of problems far more than you'll hear praise. That's the internet for you. :|

[MASHCT]

You jack my thread with your ridiculous pics? Are you, like, 10 years old? You breaking out your varsity jacket next? And do you know the point of these forums and posts? You, sir, are a commercial enterprise & an invited guest. Know your place & be respectful - or get lost.

No one here is bragging - except you. I didn't compare your amp to the JL Audio amp. I compared it to the stock HK system. Others mentioned your amp so I talked about what others posted. And in my view there are too many of what I feel are negative posts about it. I am not required to search for nor post positive reviews.

Someone buys the stuff I said & hates it has every right to say so. Doesn't change nor diminish what I said. I help one person, that's enough for me. Sound quality is subjective. Operative word there... that pesky subjectivity. Not for you to say or criticize.

And you said all that matters - if it sounds great to to the listener with "untrained ears", (LOL) then it's perfect. Go ahead & alienate some more potential customers...

Next thing you know, Nelson will be posting how all these untrained car enthusiasts brag about their fake M cars & wouldn't know a great driving car if it ran them over. Unless it was a Ferrari & the driver win a trophy. THEN we'd know a driver's car! LOL

Are you serious with yourself here man? For reals? (I wouldn't be posting any of this if Nelson kept his yap shut & didn't post pics of his trophies. Snicker. And brag about his stuff. LOL But he did, and he jacked my thread... so here we go!)

What's a trained ear anyway? I have a trained finger. Pull it. My other finger is trained too. I can show you what it does when some condescending braggart tries to tell me what sounds great to me & my "untrained ears". Listen! Do you smell that?! (Points if you get the reference!)

Does a live orchestra have a DSP? LOL

Heart of a great system is a DSP? I say someone who says that has an untrained ear and is 100% clueless about music & sound. And probably would post pics of his trophies & car stereo equipment to prove otherwise. Joe Audiophile with the golden uber-trained ear is gonna tell you if you need an EQ or digital anything, you have crap equipment & an untrained ear.

So who is right, my overly sensitive car stereo installer person?

This is THE SECOND time I've seen Nelson jack a thread & be negative/condescending when someone posts their experience, knowledge & insights. To Viffermike of all people - one of the most knowledgeable & helpful people on this forum.

This thread is about people who, like me, read THOSE posts & are looking for other solutions for THEIR money. I posted about a great sounding solution that works for me. And that is fact enough (as is everything else I posted.)

I am not, and it would seem the majority of users in the forums are not, going for competition grade highest end sound. (That's in my house.) They're looking to improve sound quality & trying to make cost effective decisions that can sound great. After spending $875 for what is clearly a piss-poor audio "upgrade", this is our choice & for some their only choice.

Folks looking for answers & help - which is what this forum is about - do not need to plow through a bunch of nonsense posted by some guy with ruffled feathers.

"oh my god my amp is being compared to anything without a DSP? How much is the amp he's talking about? is it like my super high end stuff? no? feel faint... better post pics of my trophies. I bet he bought it from an unauthorized dealer for the cheaper price too."

Customers are going to post negative reviews of your products & talk about issues. Grow a thicker skin & stop jacking peoples' threads with your braggadocio. Put it in your trunk next to your DSP.

Jim




[QUOTE=Nelson@BimmerTech;19940742]It really amazes me the amount of ...

[Zooks527]

Originally Posted by MASH65

The B'tech Amp on Bavsound is $997.

$3 shy of $1000.

As you said in another post, "That told me right there, Bavsound just might be _______________. (Fill in the blank with words of your choice.)". Why would you therefore use them as a pricing example?

You can go to the manufacturer's site, where it's $849. Why would you go to someone clearly marking it up well past that? I'm sure I could have found a dealer willing to sell my my car at a premium to MSRP instead of a discount. That doesn't mean I'd use him as the exemplar when discussing the price of the car.

[Nelson@BimmerTech]

I have absolutely zero problems with negative reviews from real life customers that own or have tested our amp. You haven't. Trust me i've learned how to be thick skinned in here, i usually just ignore most of the false info and keep it moving. Which i was advice to. Why do you think a lot of audio gurus aren't active in these forums...

Although Viffermike has been very critical of our amp he usually post informative posts.

You call that bragging?? I posted our SQ trophies to show you that i was not an average joe in tuning and Brax amps to inform you what kind of products Audiotec-Fischer manufactures since you "never heard of them". Have a GREAT DAY my friend!

[Viffermike]

OK, guys, my two cents:

Nelson@BimmerTech : Thanks for the kudos. Seriously: it's really appreciated considering how critical I've been at times.

Tunes can be exceedingly difficult for those without an ear for a number of things: what specific frequencies sound like, timing, knowledge of how sound waves behave when reflected, etc. That's why many Home Theater systems have automated software to achieve a tune (Audyssey is the most popular example of this). It's just too complicated to do unless you have "that ear" and know how to adjust response to suit an environment using both that ear and more objective methods (test tones, listening mics, etc.). Add to that the fact that we all have subjective definitions of what good sound is, which compounds the frustration for many.

The above is one of the many reasons why I personally strive for as even a frequency response as possible with my systems. I've chosen my home speakers (two complete systems), my headphones (I own eight pair), and my source components (two CD components, a Mac Mini running iTunes through BitPerfect and an external DAC, four portable CD players, several DMPs) to be as even and accurate as possible. Why? Two reasons:
- The source material often favors some frequencies over others. Sometimes it's unintentional or part of the 'character' of the recording (examples: Lo-Fi indie rock, classic country), sometimes it's very much on purpose (examples: hip hop, movie soundtracks).
- The knowledge that some programming is going to sound better than other programming with a flat, 'direct' tune.

The second part is important to realize. Any one tune isn't going to make everything sound great, even on a sonically perfect system. Why? Your subjective preferences. I was a professional music critic for eight years. When reviewing a recording, I listened to it in three places before I ever typed a word: headphones, home, car. Why? Music can sound different through different systems and affect its impact for all of the reasons above, and many more.

All that said, in as imperfect an environment as a car interior, accuracy is less important but clarity is more important. That's why I support upgrades that improve clarity -- better speakers, more clean power (to a point), DSP removal, simplicity of signal path. With a clear, flat baseline, everything will sound better overall to most ears. Will it be perfect? No. Nothing will.

MASH65 is going about things the right way, including allowing the speakers to break in (20 hours is generally the point where most speakers have loosened up). However, Nelson@BimmerTech oversimplifies when he states that "The heart of any GREAT sounding system is the DSP". That only applies if the DSP is tuned by someone who knows what they're doing, and can tune to the subjective tastes of the customer/listener as well as the listening environment -- another reason why I advocate a flat, accurate system for most because someone who can do both of those things well is exceedingly rare (Believe me: I know alllll about subjectivity from my critic days, LOL!).

[akuan99]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

OK, guys, my two cents:


All that said, in as imperfect an environment as a car interior, accuracy is less important but clarity is more important. That's why I support upgrades that improve clarity -- better speakers, more clean power (to a point), DSP removal, simplicity of signal path. With a clear, flat baseline, everything will sound better overall to most ears. Will it be perfect? No. Nothing will.
.

Well said! Viffermike!
I have my HT and music stereo setup in same room.
HT setup uses DSP to compensate for room acoustic and speaker deficiency while my stereo setup has no DSP (not even tone control).
I tweak my stereo setup by positioning speakers and listening location only.
I can "hear" benefit of DSP with its consistent tonal balance but my stereo setup gives me much better clarity with subtle ambiance information not present in my HT setup which is likely masked by DSP.
I think DSP is a good think if used in moderation and not to compensate high deficiency level.
This reminds me of automatic lens distortion correction used in modern cameras.
It allow for cheaper and more compact wide angle lenses.
Correcting distortion on these wide angle lenses does have side effects by making wide angle "less" wide (after correction) with less effective resolution at the corners as it needs to stretch an area with fixed resolution.

[Nelson@BimmerTech]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

OK, guys, my two cents:

Nelson@BimmerTech : Thanks for the kudos. Seriously: it's really appreciated considering how critical I've been at times.


However, Nelson@BimmerTech oversimplifies when he states that "The heart of any GREAT sounding system is the DSP". That only applies if the DSP is tuned by someone who knows what they're doing, and can tune to the subjective tastes of the customer/listener as well as the listening environment -- another reason why I advocate a flat, accurate system for most because someone who can do both of those things well is exceedingly rare (Believe me: I know alllll about subjectivity from my critic days, LOL!).

Great POINTS, Again very informative post. This is why i was adamant about creating a "General tune". It's a lot easy creating one with a local customer that's able to bring his CDs and fine tune it to his taste. I personally don't like center channel or rear speakers but i had to create the tune for our customer base. For those that have our amp you will notice that if you mute the center channel you will still have a center image because i created the tune without it.

A flat eq response system will only sound good with those that only listen to reference music not those with low quality mp3 or bluetooth audio as source with regrettably is what most people use nowadays....

Although i've been doing this for over 15 years i still attend yearly tuning seminars by Nick Wingate(Team Focal) Fred(Arc Audio) and Andy Wehmeyer(JBL, AudioFrog) to make sure i'm up to date with new techniques. One thing i'm glad about this convo is people are realizing that tuning is not easy and is time consuming....

If you ever wanted to try my demo amp(no purchase required, just refundable deposit) just let me know and we'll work something out. Hopefully that way you can give the forum a fair opinion.

[BentZero]

Originally Posted by Nelson@BimmerTech

Although i've been doing this for over 15 years i still attend yearly tuning seminars by Nick Wingate(Team Focal) Fred(Arc Audio) and Andy Wehmeyer(JBL, AudioFrog) to make sure i'm up to date with new techniques. One thing i'm glad about this convo is people are realizing that tuning is not easy and is time consuming....

Hey Nelson, this part of what you said is my only issue with going with your amp. When I heard about your product I was actually quite intrigued by it since I'm a tinkerer by nature. However, I don't have a great ear nor the equipment to tune it properly. I also primarily listen to hip hop which doesn't seem to be the norm on this board, so I'm worried that i won't find a tune that works for me at all. Then there's the fact that I live in Charleston, SC where car audio is not really that big, so idk of a shop that I can trust to do the tune for me. A lot of factors, but that said I've not ruled out your amp just yet and I'm not ashamed to say that I'm a bit intimidated by the task. It's one I'm willing to take on, but if I can't get it right that's an expensive lesson to learn.

[OpenAir]

Originally Posted by BentZero

Keep us posted. You sound like you know that you're doing. Would you post a diy on the process?

I was a certified Installer in Washington State for several years, and a member of IASCA. I've won a few awards for my designs, but that was a long time ago. Music has been a passion of mine all my life.

I'll keep your request in mind as I'm installing, but I currently have a long list of spring chores to do, so not sure when I'll get around to it.

[JohnnyCanuck]

Originally Posted by Nelson@BimmerTech

FYI the heart of any GREAT sounding sound system is the DSP. Without one you can't really be bragging how good your set up sounds. It might sound GOOD to your untrained ears but not to anyone that knows what a GREAT car audio sound system is to supposed to sound like . Like i often tell my customers a dsp with a proper tune can make a $300 mediocre speaker sound like a 2k high end speaker. I've heard 2k budget car system sound better than cars that had 20k worth of amp and speakers.

Have to say, this bothered me as much as it bothered MASH65. It's just fundamentally wrong for an assessment of any high end audio, irrespective of whether it's in a car or not. I can't imagine anyone saying anything so silly for home audio ... IMO, it's equally wrongheaded for a statement about car audio. Yes, the car is a very imperfect listening environment and signal processing has a tremendous impact in addressing the shortcomings of a vehicle cabin ... but the idea that it can overcome other elements of the system to the point where it is a superior choice to upgrading the speakers, improving the source quality, etc just doesn't ring true.

As to the statement that a 2K system can sound better than a 20K one is just a red herring. Who knows who did the setup and sometimes a lower priced component is just a remarkable gem (I will put my Audio Refinement by YBA home gear up against products costing hundreds or even a couple of thousand more any day of the week).

What's more bothersome is Nelson@BimmerTech's runaway ego. I'm sorry I didn't train my ear ... WTF does that mean anyway? The post was insulting to those of us who don't think the amp is the starting point, who think selmeralto and Viffermike have a really good handle on this system, and who think that the last piece to worry about is the amp (especially with the ECU flash issue discovered by Zooks527). Not interested in doing business with a trophy case, thank you very much.

[OpenAir]

Originally Posted by Nelson@BimmerTech

...Zooks527 - i have a brand new Helix remote control http://www.audiotec-fischer.de/lng/en/urc-2a.html laying around, if you want it is yours for free...

My heart gently flutters...lucky man!

[BentZero]

Originally Posted by OpenAir

I was a certified Installer in Washington State for several years, and a member of IASCA. I've won a few awards for my designs, but that was a long time ago. Music has been a passion of mine all my life.

I'll keep your request in mind as I'm installing, but I currently have a long list of spring chores to do, so not sure when I'll get around to it.

Ah, no worries man. I know how it is.

[OpenAir]

Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck

...and who think that the last piece to worry about is the amp (especially with the ECU flash issue discovered by Zooks527)...

Not bashing here, but if the Flash had trouble talking to this amp, do you think any amp will fare better? They will all fail...

[JohnnyCanuck]

Originally Posted by OpenAir

Not bashing here, but if the Flash had trouble talking to this amp, do you think any amp will fare better? They will all fail...

Agreed. I was suggesting that the last upgrade I would consider would be the amp and would do all the other things suggested in the Dr. Strangelove thread before doing an amp upgrade both because it makes sense and because of the possible flash issue.

[OpenAir]

Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck

Agreed. I was suggesting that the last upgrade I would consider would be the amp and would do all the other things suggested in the Dr. Strangelove thread before doing an amp upgrade both because it makes sense and because of the possible flash issue.

Understood, I am doing the amp first as I have a cab and I need a little bit more power.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck

Have to say, this bothered me as much as it bothered MASH65. It's just fundamentally wrong for an assessment of any high end audio, irrespective of whether it's in a car or not. I can't imagine anyone saying anything so silly for home audio ... IMO, it's equally wrongheaded for a statement about car audio. Yes, the car is a very imperfect listening environment and signal processing has a tremendous impact in addressing the shortcomings of a vehicle cabin ... but the idea that it can overcome other elements of the system to the point where it is a superior choice to upgrading the speakers, improving the source quality, etc just doesn't ring true.

As to the statement that a 2K system can sound better than a 20K one is just a red herring. Who knows who did the setup and sometimes a lower priced component is just a remarkable gem (I will put my Audio Refinement by YBA home gear up against products costing hundreds or even a couple of thousand more any day of the week).

Thing is, Nelson's statements aren't far-fetched. A $20K system tuned badly (or underpowered, overpowered, fed low-quality programming, connected to poor source components, etc.) can certainly sound worse than a system costing a tenth of that. The problem with DSP tunes is that they are static ...

... and the problem with saving the amp as the last upgrade in our cars is the DSP in it. Remember: that DSP is not tuned for the car's acoustics; it's tuned to mask the deficiencies of the OEM system: speakers, head unit, digital bitrate defaults, subwoofer power, etc. To get rid of the OEM DSP, only two actions are possible:

1). Replace the OEM amp
2). Install another DSP unit to correct, as best as is possible, the OEM DSP (Highly, highly, HIGHLY discouraged. HIGHLY!)

As you know, in most cases high-end audio should be assessed flat as a baseline. We can't do that with our systems. So the process has to happen backwards: make the system more flat to reset the baseline. The golden rule in improving a system -- ANY system, not just an audio system -- is to improve the weakest link in the system.

In an audio system, wide-range speakers (as opposed to subs) that can reproduce cleanly should ALWAYS be the first thing done unless power isn't sufficient to drive them. The next step? Minimize tone coloring. That's the DSP. In our cars, that means the amp goes next. There's really no other way around it.

Despite the experience of Zooks527 I don't see a huge issue with swapping the OEM amp back in if an ECU reflash is required. As others have noted, it's not a common occurrence, and to date no one else has had that happen. Integration-wise, it could be a LOT worse. Just keep the OEM amp, folks!