[albertw]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Pretty simple really. Hit it fairly hard in a sweeping turn in 2nd and without the LSD, the inside tire will usually spin and the backend gets light and loose and car feels like it wants to slide or drift away from the turn. With the LSD, a lot more power is transferred the outside tire. This then pushes the rear outside of the car into the turn thus the chassis plants and helps the car go where you want it to go all the while being WAY more stable.

When you wrote "Add throttle and the nose actually pulls inwards towards the turn." I thought you were talking about the LSD affecting the ability of the front tires to turn the car in. Whereas I think you're comparing cornering while accelerating at a pace that would cause the rear to slide without an LSD but not with one. Of course the LSD car will get around and out of the corner faster in this particular situation. So what? Speed only matters on the track.

On the street, my idea is to have the most fun at the lowest speed. That's why I prefer the lower speed / lower acceleration slides possible with an open differential and all season tires. I have no trouble doing smooth, controllable slides in Sport+, and I don't understand the problems some people claim they have with them.

One potential explanation is a difference in definition of "slide". For me that means having the rear wheels outside the track of the fronts by a foot or two at the most - definitely not enough to have the nannies step in. Maybe others think sliding means the car at 45 degrees to its path and full opposite lock on the steering wheel, which I know nothing about on pavement (though just after I got my license I had a lot of fun learning how to do that in my dad's 59 Plymouth on the local horse track when no one was around).

Possibly another difference is in how close we are to the traction limit when we want a slide. I like to be using up most (80 - 90%) of the available traction for turning before adding a bit of gas to induce oversteer. If you want to slide from using only 50% of traction for cornering, an open differential may well be uncooperative. I wouldn't know as I've never tried that.

Or maybe it is just the tires. In my hands the Pirelli runflats do controllable, gentle slides in 40 - 70 mph corners, and the fun of those slides makes up for all the negatives of those tires.

[MassNerd]

Originally Posted by CP911

That sounds a bit off to me. Do you know what driving modes both cars were in?

DSC-off mode was standard fare for the day being a skidpad (wet). I can't know 100% but I think both cars were in this mode.
And if the M235 making 360 degrees around the pad isn't a sustained drift, I don't know what is!
I am sure it didn't have a LSD.

[MassNerd]

FYI, I found in another thread that with DSC off, that is the only mode where the "eLSD" or Automatic Differential Brake is activated.

So while it may not be as good as a real LSD, it may be effective enough for some drifiting.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by albertw

Wow. If you need that much throttle to fit into traffic you must be scaring the hell out of the oncoming driver. Sounds like hooliganism to me.

Not really. It helps me merge into traffic more safely and put distance between me and the guy behind me rather being left to wonder if the tires are going to light up and I've got tip-toe my way into the throttle, spinning the tires, and looking overly dramatic going 20mph with the tires screeching and perhaps looking like a hooligan. There are plenty of real world situations where you need to punch it in 1st a bit. It's more of a safety thing and why wouldn't you want the ability to plant as much power as possible in any gear if given the option With the LSD, it plants and goes. No visual drama. Just the sexy sound of the N55 flowing through the catted DP and MPE.

When I ordered this car, I specifically ordered it without the LSD so I could evaluate if the car really needed it as I knew the eLSD was pretty good and the nanny intervention in Sport+ fairly acceptable compared to other makes. At the time, the LSD was a $3,900 option which was bonkers to me. Overall, I thought the car was fairly well-sorted but wasn't exactly blown away by the handling performance. It was good, but felt a bit disconnected between the front and rear axles. Under heavy throttle in 2nd and going in a straight line, I could feel this weird rocking sensation coming from the rear axle while in Sport+ and DSC Off (others have reported the same behavior). The traction, or lack thereof, under heavy throttle in 1st and 2nd was somewhat poor and made me think the PSS 245 rear tires weren't wide enough. I could coax throttle oversteer in Sport+ and DSC Off and could control it, but it felt a little off plus when it did it, forward momentum was generally lost.

Like you though, I thought the non-LSD setup was pretty good and didn't understand why people gushed over it. I read all the posts about the LSD but often questioned how it could make such a dramatic difference. Years ago, I swapped a 350Z viscous LSD into my G35 and it didn't make a huge difference so I couldn't see why this clutch-based LSD would be God's gift to the 2 series.

Fast forward two years. I decided "what the hell", I needed a new mod thus it was time for the LSD and prices had fallen dramatically. I got it installed for around $2,500. I broke it in was recommended and then started exploring it's capabilities. I'm not afraid to admit that I was wrong in doubting the validity of the LSD claims. It's a like a different car. The issues noted above were remedied and the car felt like a proper sports coupe. Throw in my square 245 setup and Dinan rear springs (MASSIVE improvement in rear axle control) and this car has high limits, but not so high that you can't explore them on a B road. I'm not interested in cars that are extremely fast and have limits you can't explore on a daily basis.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by MassNerd

FYI, I found in another thread that with DSC off, that is the only mode where the "eLSD" or Automatic Differential Brake is activated.

So while it may not be as good as a real LSD, it may be effective enough for some drifiting.

You're right on both accounts. The LSD will make the drift way more controllable, fluid, and elegant. Also, you can maintain a lot more forward momentum with the LSD and feels much more natural and controllable as you can modulate it with the throttle. With the eLSD, it simply feels like the car is rotating on it's axis and to me, felt far less controllable.

[mcompact]

Originally Posted by MarcoZandrini

My dealer refunded me $500 when my custom ordered M340i was delivered with a moonroof. I ordered the car with the moonroof delete as I intended to track the car. Now I have to lower the seat and cock my head a bit.

Back in 1995 my salesperson had to fight with Munich have my Club Sport built without a sunroof. In that case it was an option but the factory still tried to force me to take one. My salesperson stood firm and mine is one of less than ten Club Sports that didn't get stuck with a hole in the roof.

[mcompact]

Originally Posted by albertw

Wow. If you need that much throttle to fit into traffic you must be scaring the hell out of the oncoming driver. Sounds like hooliganism to me.

[chattanooga240]

Originally Posted by B58togo

$2500-3000 worth of LSD and install on the house is one hell of a consolation prize for having to keep the car with the sunroof!

This

[Jashue]

Has anyone here upgraded an 240/235 with X-Drive with LSD?
Does doing so even make sense?

[Mehim]

Originally Posted by Jashue

Has anyone here upgraded an 240/235 with X-Drive with LSD?
Does doing so even make sense?

Xdrive has enough grip imo

[rainfall]

Interesting. I thought I had read somewhere that with LSD the car is easier to spin off. False assessment?

[B58togo]

^^

Yes, it's easier to put it into a ditch or a tree with the LSD *if DSC is disabled*.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by rainfall

Interesting. I thought I had read somewhere that with LSD the car is easier to spin off. False assessment?

I'd argue that relying on the eLSD is more dangerous than the LSD. With the LSD, you can control the rear far easier in a slide, whether or or off the power.

With the DSC off, you've got no nannies. Once the back end is sliding, you're on your own, whether it's the eLSD or LSD in the back.

Most younger folks have never had to drive powerful cars without stability control so they are less in tune with a chassis when they turn them off and simply overdrive the car and get in over their head. These cars make a lot of torque in the low rpm and midrange and you must be careful because turbos can have an on/off nature depending on throttle application and load thus the boost on-set torque surges to the rear tires need to be considered.

[harma24]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

With the DSC off, you've got no nannies. Once the back end is sliding, you're on your own, whether it's the eLSD or LSD in the back.

Agreed, but if you don't know how to control the car when the back end is stepping out, you probably shouldn't be driving like a hooligan with DSC-Off.



There I go again expecting people to know how to handle a vehicle before they get in the drivers seat...

[msej449]

{Most younger folks have never had to drive powerful cars without stability control}

and many of us who have, like me, are still prone to forgetting how much intervention there is, even in SPORT mode: here's start of a driver training course I attended at Goodwood where the first ting they do is just turn off DSC for the first time and just get you to do a quick start:

Initially, it's frightening. After half an hour, you actually start to understand how to handle the car with finesse. But to disable DSC on a public road for the first time, without having done some training like this and not understanding the implications is risky. Obviously, this is on a wet track to amplify the effects, but still relevant.

The cars are Euro M140i without LSD. Doing a reverse J-turn was real fun - I didn't think it was possible in an auto, but it is. And useful if I ever encounter a road block hijack, obviously.

[Dylan86]

Pfft. I drove a '93 Safari RWD w/ open diff for 5 years as a DD, in the snow and all!!

Agree on the fact that these cars feel unsafe with DSC-off, and open diff. I've compared myself and it's freaky, imo.

With an LSD, DSC-off gives you the most control, with least mitigation. If you have good tires like PSS/PS4S then you're not going to just arbitrarily spin out because you're "new", just be ready to let off of the gas and counter steer.

Tip for people new to power oversteer - RELAX, step into it slowly, be ready to counter steer, and let off as soon as something doesn't seem or feel right.

[perryair]

with lsd the colors are more vivid and everything is so much deeper.

as for the car, rwd + lsd + dsc off just make for a smile. any rwd car, really.. dancing with oversteer just makes you happy. and that's why we own these things, right? cause they make us smile.

[B58togo]

^^

Well said. Thread can now rest.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by perryair

with lsd the colors are more vivid and everything is so much deeper.

as for the car, rwd + lsd + dsc off just make for a smile. any rwd car, really.. dancing with oversteer just makes you happy. and that's why we own these things, right? cause they make us smile.

So true

Assuming you've got great tires, being able to use more throttle in a turning situation and hammering it WAY earlier when coming out of an apex is huge benefit. Without the LSD, the back end always felt twitchy and loose, as if it would want to lift up, slide, and roast the tires. With the LSD, the same situation is met with squat, tons less spin, and a car listening to your throttle and steering inputs.