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      04-27-2022, 09:34 PM   #23
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Just wanted to post an update, I just did my oil change today and I noticed that the magnet actually does pick up metallic debris. There was a small greyish layer of metallic sludge covering the head of the magnet that was easily wiped off. It wasn't a large amount of metal by any means - nothing to be concerned about, but it does show that these engines do have ferrous metal components inside that do wear (cam shafts, valvetronic shaft, valve springs, timing chain, etc). So these magnetic drain plugs do work, and aren't useless as many speculated.

Another thing to note was my oil temps got to 106*C in comfort mode before I shut off the car to drain the oil. So it was extremely hot and the magnet didn't lose its magnetism showing that turner does indeed use a very good quality grade n42 type SH neodymium magnet.


Overall it is a very solid product and I am happy to have it.
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      04-27-2022, 10:56 PM   #24
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I’d worry about the abrasiveness of carbon black soot which circulates in much higher quantities in oil in GDI engines than a tiny amount of metallic sludge that accumulates on a drain plug that would be caught in the oil filter before recirculating, if of a sufficient size to cause any bearing scoring.

This research on CB abrasiveness indicates that oil can accumulate quite a payload of CB particles even at fairly low mileages and especially with rich mixtures, characteristic of aftermarket tunes: https://spiral.imperial.ac.uk/bitstr...PhD-Thesis.pdf
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      04-27-2022, 11:49 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aerobod View Post
I’d worry about the abrasiveness of carbon black soot which circulates in much higher quantities in oil in GDI engines than a tiny amount of metallic sludge that accumulates on a drain plug that would be caught in the oil filter before recirculating, if of a sufficient size to cause any bearing scoring.

This research on CB abrasiveness indicates that oil can accumulate quite a payload of CB particles even at fairly low mileages and especially with rich mixtures, characteristic of aftermarket tunes: https://spiral.imperial.ac.uk/bitstr...PhD-Thesis.pdf
Again, a different topic... But there's not much you can do to prevent carbon soot, generally you should look into running a fuel system cleaner yearly to ensure the direct injectors are clean and get better atomize fuel which limits these pockets of non-stoichiometric fuel vapors causing carbon soot formation. Then you should use fuels with quality additives to help ensure a cleaner burn, and oils with quality additives and base stocks (this will help it prevent break down due to fuel dilution and thus become more likely to enter the combustion cycle as it is now thinner and easier to volitalize, and quality oils have a better shear strength and anti wear additives to help aid in preventing wearing due to contaminants such as soot) to ensure the oil left on the cylinder walls (or recirculated via the pcv system) that gets combusted doesn't also cause issues. You can also run a catch can system as well to help stop blow by from being burnt which also contributes to carbon soot formation. Either way there isn't much you can do about this issue, but judging by the n55's pcv tract being alot cleaner than the n54 (less blow by and much cleaner valves both exhaust and intact) this issue likely isn't as big of a deal on the n55 in partcular (maybe due to the mechanism of fuel injection and combustion) vs. something like an audi or vw group engine which is notorious for carbon soot production. Again nothing you can really do about this, and if you are worried enough drop OCI down even lower.



Sure the oil filter can catch it, but an oil filter isn't 100% effective and not all metallic particles are large in size. The sludge I captured was extremely fine in size and had no descrernable grains/particles. So this is a matter of doing something to aide the oil filter rather than doing nothing, and for the incredibly cheap price of this mod it is more than worth it.



BTW: if you want to talk about other concerns, I would be even more worried about LSPI than carbon soot. It can be exacerbated with high calcium additives in oil, high load low rpm scenarios, crap fuel, bad tunes, and hot spots on pistons due to blow by poor quality fuel etc. Again completely off topic.
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      04-28-2022, 12:09 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F87source View Post
Again, a different topic... But there's not much you can do to prevent carbon soot, generally you should look into running a fuel system cleaner yearly to ensure the direct injectors are clean and get better atomize fuel which limits these pockets of non-stoichiometric fuel vapors causing carbon soot formation. Then you should use fuels with quality additives to help ensure a cleaner burn, and oils with quality additives and base stocks (this will help it prevent break down due to fuel dilution and thus become more likely to enter the combustion cycle as it is now thinner and easier to volitalize, and quality oils have a better shear strength and anti wear additives to help aid in preventing wearing due to contaminants such as soot) to ensure the oil left on the cylinder walls (or recirculated via the pcv system) that gets combusted doesn't also cause issues. You can also run a catch can system as well to help stop blow by from being burnt which also contributes to carbon soot formation. Either way there isn't much you can do about this issue, but judging by the n55's pcv tract being alot cleaner than the n54 (less blow by and much cleaner valves both exhaust and intact) this issue likely isn't as big of a deal on the n55 in partcular (maybe due to the mechanism of fuel injection and combustion) vs. something like an audi or vw group engine which is notorious for carbon soot production. Again nothing you can really do about this, and if you are worried enough drop OCI down even lower.



Sure the oil filter can catch it, but an oil filter isn't 100% effective and not all metallic particles are large in size. The sludge I captured was extremely fine in size and had no descrernable grains/particles. So this is a matter of doing something to aide the oil filter rather than doing nothing, and for the incredibly cheap price of this mod it is more than worth it.



BTW: if you want to talk about other concerns, I would be even more worried about LSPI than carbon soot. It can be exacerbated with high calcium additives in oil, high load low rpm scenarios, crap fuel, bad tunes, and hot spots on pistons due to blow by poor quality fuel etc. Again completely off topic.
LSPI definitely can be a problem with aftermarket tunes, but the characteristics leading to it shouldn’t be an issue with a stock B58 tune and BMW spec oil.

The interesting thing about CB wear in the referenced research is the very negative effect on wear high ZDDP oils can have when hard CB deposits are present (i.e. in GDI and Diesel engines), this seems to be a little understood area that hopefully Shell as the financial sponsor will research further. It only seems that manufacturers are specifying low ZDDP oils to meet catalytic converter and particulate filter needs, but have perhaps dodged a longevity problem indirectly.

Back to the magnetic filter, I won’t fit one, but I think it is good if it gives someone peace of mind.
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      04-28-2022, 12:16 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aerobod View Post
LSPI definitely can be a problem with aftermarket tunes, but the characteristics leading to it shouldn’t be an issue with a stock B58 tune and BMW spec oil.

The interesting thing about CB wear in the referenced research is the very negative effect on wear high ZDDP oils can have when hard CB deposits are present (i.e. in GDI and Diesel engines), this seems to be a little understood area that hopefully Shell as the financial sponsor will research further. It only seems that manufacturers are specifying low ZDDP oils to meet catalytic converter and particulate filter needs, but have perhaps dodged a longevity problem indirectly.

Back to the magnetic filter, I won’t fit one, but I think it is good if it gives someone peace of mind.
Well it can be aftermarket tune related - I have seen alot of crap tuners on these platforms but I won't get into that. But it can be made better even compared to stock if you have a competent tuner that will increase load in the higher rpm ranges rather than tuners that dump everything as low down in the rpm band as possible.

Yes bmw spec oil will help, but LL01FE sucks for wear protection, try to get LL01 instead. There is a whole oil thread on the m2 side of the forums with a really knowledgeable oil expert who discusses everything. But I personally run pennzoil platnium euro 5w40 for a variety of reasons (high hths, low noack, excellent additive package etc). No need to run expensive botique oils.


Low ZDDP is also mandated to protect against timing chain wear amongst other things. BMW LL01 now is requiring a timing chain test too.


Some images of others using a magnetic drain plug


Cheap magnetic drain plug (being hollow makes them weak hence a strong metal is desirable):




This shows magnetic wear metals are present in these aluminium engines.


N54 drain plug:



M4 drain plug:
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      04-28-2022, 12:29 AM   #28
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The small amount of magnetic sludge doesn't seem to be anything to worry about, it should be expelled at oil change along with the non-magnetic sludge of especially harder aluminium oxides that will exist in the oil from any fine oxided aluminium wear.

I use a standard BMW drain plug with no risk of the breakage that a poor quality aftermarket plug could bring.

For the N55, LL-01 works well, but it is no longer specified for the B58 in any market, needs to be LL-01FE 0w30 or LL-17FE+ spec oil.
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      04-28-2022, 01:36 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aerobod View Post
The small amount of magnetic sludge doesn't seem to be anything to worry about, it should be expelled at oil change along with the non-magnetic sludge of especially harder aluminium oxides that will exist in the oil from any fine oxided aluminium wear.

I use a standard BMW drain plug with no risk of the breakage that a poor quality aftermarket plug could bring.

For the N55, LL-01 works well, but it is no longer specified for the B58 in any market, needs to be LL-01FE 0w30 or LL-17FE+ spec oil.
Like I said, doing something is better than nothing, and for a cheap part why not. In terms of breaking, that is the reason why one should opt for a quality drain plug instead of going for the cheapest one there is.


That's the problem with the new B58's, to meet fuel efficency standards they are now forcing the B58 to use FE low viscosity oils. Now this is not to be misinterpreted to higher weight being better, but it is to do with shear strength - HTHS, and FE oils typically do not fare well when it comes to shear strength and thus protection is compromised. There are hypothesis out there saying this is what has lead to n55's having bearing failures vs. the n54 which shares a very similar bearing compound, because ll01FE was introduced right at the same time as the n55's release. So honestly the FE specified oils, are a huge negative and if I were a B58 owner I would instantly dump the FE certified oil right after warranty ends for more robust certifications like porsche A40, MB229.5 and BMW LL01. There has also been discussions on BITOG by experts with oil, and with UOA's to back this up, FE oils are inferior to non FE oils.


Also if you use a good base stock oil, a 40 weight oil will have the same viscosity as a thick 30 weight oil, but also have a higher shear strength. That's the benefit of a quality base stock, better shear strength without the viscosity penalty to get it.
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      04-28-2022, 10:04 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F87source View Post
Like I said, doing something is better than nothing, and for a cheap part why not. In terms of breaking, that is the reason why one should opt for a quality drain plug instead of going for the cheapest one there is.


That's the problem with the new B58's, to meet fuel efficency standards they are now forcing the B58 to use FE low viscosity oils. Now this is not to be misinterpreted to higher weight being better, but it is to do with shear strength - HTHS, and FE oils typically do not fare well when it comes to shear strength and thus protection is compromised. There are hypothesis out there saying this is what has lead to n55's having bearing failures vs. the n54 which shares a very similar bearing compound, because ll01FE was introduced right at the same time as the n55's release. So honestly the FE specified oils, are a huge negative and if I were a B58 owner I would instantly dump the FE certified oil right after warranty ends for more robust certifications like porsche A40, MB229.5 and BMW LL01. There has also been discussions on BITOG by experts with oil, and with UOA's to back this up, FE oils are inferior to non FE oils.


Also if you use a good base stock oil, a 40 weight oil will have the same viscosity as a thick 30 weight oil, but also have a higher shear strength. That's the benefit of a quality base stock, better shear strength without the viscosity penalty to get it.
The B58 engine was designed around a 0w20 oil with 0w30 permitted, a Xw40 oil may well present problems in engine longevity due to higher oil temperatures and lower flow rates when expected under stress due to higher pumping pressures than expected. I'm sure BMW didn't do any testing with Xw40 oils, so it is user testing only for any long term effects. The bearing clearances, area and oil passage sizes are going to be designed around using a 0w20 oil for a long period (up to 2 years between oil changes in BMWs in Europe)

I have direct experience of what happens with using an oil grade with a higher viscocity than is optimum.

My car that is generally used on the track is a Caterham R400. It has a Ford 2.0 Duratec that is derived from the standard engines that generally produce form 125-150bhp, rev to 6,500-6,800RPM or so and use 5w30 oil as standard. Caterham keeps the basic engine layout and upgrades parts as necessary (such as forged pistons), but the oiling and cooling design within the block and head and the bearing clearances remain the same. The version I have produces 210bhp naturally aspirated and revs to 7,800rpm and the highest output version produces 256bhp and revs to 8,500RPM.

The recommended oil for the 256bhp engine version to cope with a 8,500RPM redline is 5w50 to purely deal with very high big-end bearing loads at the redline (this is an over-square engine with F1-like pistons speeds). If I run 5w50 oil instead of 0w40, I end up with 10C higher oil temps measured before the oil cooler on track due to lower oil flow (with it being dry sumped, the oil tank temp is much lower and returned to a stable value by the oil cooler) and consistently 1 bar (15 PSI) higher oil pressure including 3.5 bar (51PSI) at idle, leading to the oil pressure relief valve activating at 6 bar (88PSI) at around 4,500RPM instead of around 6,000RPM on the 0w40 oil. The higher output engine is advised to have a 50,000km / 30,000 mile rebuild in normal use due to general wear, my 210bhp has no advised rebuild interval.

The bottom line is use the thickest oil necessary to provide big-end protection at the hottest oil temp allowed at redline. The B58 going by worldwide reputation as a solid and reliable engine, is fine with a 0w20 oil with stock redline and max oil temp, but using 0w30 if run flat out is also supported. Anything thicker is into user test territory, with potentially negative effects from reduced oil flow and higher oil temperatures at the bearings, with no appreciable benefit.
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      04-28-2022, 02:08 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aerobod View Post
The B58 engine was designed around a 0w20 oil with 0w30 permitted, a Xw40 oil may well present problems in engine longevity due to higher oil temperatures and lower flow rates when expected under stress due to higher pumping pressures than expected. I'm sure BMW didn't do any testing with Xw40 oils, so it is user testing only for any long term effects. The bearing clearances, area and oil passage sizes are going to be designed around using a 0w20 oil for a long period (up to 2 years between oil changes in BMWs in Europe)

I have direct experience of what happens with using an oil grade with a higher viscocity than is optimum.

My car that is generally used on the track is a Caterham R400. It has a Ford 2.0 Duratec that is derived from the standard engines that generally produce form 125-150bhp, rev to 6,500-6,800RPM or so and use 5w30 oil as standard. Caterham keeps the basic engine layout and upgrades parts as necessary (such as forged pistons), but the oiling and cooling design within the block and head and the bearing clearances remain the same. The version I have produces 210bhp naturally aspirated and revs to 7,800rpm and the highest output version produces 256bhp and revs to 8,500RPM.

The recommended oil for the 256bhp engine version to cope with a 8,500RPM redline is 5w50 to purely deal with very high big-end bearing loads at the redline (this is an over-square engine with F1-like pistons speeds). If I run 5w50 oil instead of 0w40, I end up with 10C higher oil temps measured before the oil cooler on track due to lower oil flow (with it being dry sumped, the oil tank temp is much lower and returned to a stable value by the oil cooler) and consistently 1 bar (15 PSI) higher oil pressure including 3.5 bar (51PSI) at idle, leading to the oil pressure relief valve activating at 6 bar (88PSI) at around 4,500RPM instead of around 6,000RPM on the 0w40 oil. The higher output engine is advised to have a 50,000km / 30,000 mile rebuild in normal use due to general wear, my 210bhp has no advised rebuild interval.

The bottom line is use the thickest oil necessary to provide big-end protection at the hottest oil temp allowed at redline. The B58 going by worldwide reputation as a solid and reliable engine, is fine with a 0w20 oil with stock redline and max oil temp, but using 0w30 if run flat out is also supported. Anything thicker is into user test territory, with potentially negative effects from reduced oil flow and higher oil temperatures at the bearings, with no appreciable benefit.
Weight isn't the concern it's viscosity, and if you look at oils with quality base stocks like shells GTL oils, or Pao and ester heavy oils like Castrol edge 0w30 and 0w40 and Pennzoil platinum euro 5w40, their viscosities are the same as a xw30 weight oil, and have a much better HTHS. This is the benefits of running a good quality oil. This is what Influences bearing clearance - viscosity not out right weight, and these oils will have no issue in the engine if all 30 weights are allowed because these oils are thinner than some really heavy 30 weights.


Temperature will increase but that's a function of shear strength, the higher the shear strength the higher the drag and the more temperature you'll get. That's the trade off between protection, and fuel efficiency aka crappy FE oils.



Next BMW ll01 certificatations approve 40 weight oils of a specific brand, PPE 5w40 is approved and like due to its really low viscosity for a 40 weight making it really like a heavy 30 weight oil. So any engines that are ok with ll01 are ok with the specified BMW tested oils, and that means the b58 and s58 engines are also ok with Pennzoil platinum euro 5w40.


These are the same talking points used in the m2 community when it was new, that BMW says 0w30 Fe oils are mandated so you can't go over that limit or else clearances will be an issue. Yet when viscosity is discussed and not weight, you'll quickly see that the oil tolerance narrative is false, and BMW only used FE oils for fuel economy and emissions. You can also look at wear testing - which should increase if oil tolerance was an issue. Yet when moving away from BMW's FE oils and to an ll01 40 weight oil wear decreased. Finally if you look at the rod bearing tolerances the minimum specced clearance is not limited to just 30 weight oils, of you cross reference it with bearing charts online it's fine for 60 weights and guys who track it competively used 60 weight oil without issue.

So the reduced flow due to tolerance is just misinformation, viscosity is what matters. And when you say no appreciable benefits do you have UOA's to back it up? Because the guys on BITOG do.


Take a look at the oil expert forums if you want to know more, and you'll quickly learn the BMW specified oil weight has nothing to do with protection it's all about hitting emissions standards which are getting stricter and stricter by the year.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/th...dation.337089/
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      04-28-2022, 02:18 PM   #32
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Yeah I just checked again the b58 is still approved for ll01 as per ista. This means a minimum HTHS of 3.5 is allowed the ll-17fe+ oil is 2.6-3.1 HTHS which is absolutely horrible for shear protection and there were already wear issues with ll01 Fe+ which is a minimum of 3.5 HTHS), so temperature concerns is not an issue. And since it's allowed to have ll01 low kv100 40 weights are allowed too, so there literally is no basis in saying 0w20 is the only oil the b58 can have, that's BMW recommended weight based on their fuel efficiency targets.


https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/th...-17-fe.287776/
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      04-28-2022, 02:22 PM   #33
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      04-28-2022, 02:58 PM   #34
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I'm not sure the relevance of discussing M2 N55 LL-01 UOA and B58 usage, the N55 is supported, B58 hasn't been since I believe 2020, the old versions of ISTA-D show it generically being supported, but the updated BMW info only shows up to 1 litre of top up with LL-01 or SN Xw40 oils, not a full fill.

Perhaps I wasn't being pedantic enough when I mentioned "weight", too colloquial vs being accurate, viscocity is what I had previously referred to. Higher viscosity oils at a given temperature will flow less volume for a given pressure and with the same heat transfer coefficient will spend longer transfering heat due to the lower fluid volume and will hence increase in temperature more than the higher volume flow from the less viscous oil, besides any fairly minimal shearing effect on heating.

In most engines you are hitting the oil pressure limiter well before the red line, hence lower flow with a more viscous oil in that scenario.

In the B58 with a 0w20 oil I have no reason to doubt the suitability (assuming of course a stock engine, anything else is outside of the engineering test envelope), it definitely is not suitable for the N55 (M2 or otherwise), as it was never engineered for that oil. The HTHS has to be matched to the engineering of the engine which will depend on bearing area, clearance and oil passage sizing, in itself it has no absolute meaning, otherwise we would all be running 10w60, as an Xw40 HTHS looks inadequate in comparison.
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      04-28-2022, 03:22 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aerobod View Post
I'm not sure the relevance of discussing M2 N55 LL-01 UOA and B58 usage, the N55 is supported, B58 hasn't been since I believe 2020, the old versions of ISTA-D show it generically being supported, but the updated BMW info only shows up to 1 litre of top up with LL-01 or SN Xw40 oils, not a full fill.

Perhaps I wasn't being pedantic enough when I mentioned "weight", too colloquial vs being accurate, viscocity is what I had previously referred to. Higher viscosity oils at a given temperature will flow less volume for a given pressure and with the same heat transfer coefficient will spend longer transfering heat due to the lower fluid volume and will hence increase in temperature more than the higher volume flow from the less viscous oil, besides any fairly minimal shearing effect on heating.

In most engines you are hitting the oil pressure limiter well before the red line, hence lower flow with a more viscous oil in that scenario.

In the B58 with a 0w20 oil I have no reason to doubt the suitability (assuming of course a stock engine, anything else is outside of the engineering test envelope), it definitely is not suitable for the N55 (M2 or otherwise), as it was never engineered for that oil. The HTHS has to be matched to the engineering of the engine which will depend on bearing area, clearance and oil passage sizing, in itself it has no absolute meaning, otherwise we would all be running 10w60, as an Xw40 HTHS looks inadequate in comparison.
The reason why I brought the m2 in is because the same uninformed sentiment of oil was shared as well.

I have a newer version of ista and the b58 and s58 is still checked in the oil comparability charts, there have been no changes to bearings or oil squirters during that time either so oil clearance shouldn't have changed and thus isn't an issue. The same was said about the m2 and when bearing tolerance data was pulled up it proved BMW specced enough tolerance, and all the speculation about tolerance was nonsense as proven by BMW's approval of low kv100 40 weight oils for ll01. What did change during 2016 (b58 release) and now is stricter German emissions which is why thinner oils are being used.


UOA's show increased wear with FE oils, that's where the doubt comes in. Then you look at ll01 approved oils which generally come with Porsche a40 (multiple hour Nurburgring test to ensure oil doesn't break down) and mb229.5 approvals, then you see how much more stringent these tests are and you see ll01 has a timing chain test which should be relevant for the b58 since the timing chain is in the rear of the engine making it impossible to service without dropping the motor. So you start to see better certifications as well when moving to a better oil.


BMW does have a mandated minimum HTHS ll01 is 3.5, but the reason why they're going thinner has nothing to do with what the engine can handle, it has to do with parasitic loss and emissions. So you want to have a good HTHS for the viscosity the engine can utilize which will result in as much protection as feasibly possible and this is why base stock is important because you can achieve major HTHS ratings without sacrificing viscosity. motul sport 300v 40 weight oil gets into the high 4 HTHS range due to its heavy ester base stock and that's almost 10w60 oil without the viscosity penalty. It's about finding the balance between shear strength and viscosity without going too thick, and FE oils have been proven to be garbage for protection and BMW moving to an even thinner fe oil doesn't help.


Btw GDI engines have more fuel dilution issues than pi engines, a thinner oil will suffer even more from that and thus sacrifice even more protection.


Look at some b58 UOA and you'll start to see BMW Fe oils suck vs. non Fe oils.
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      04-28-2022, 03:37 PM   #36
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Quote:
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The reason why I brought the m2 in is because the same uninformed sentiment of oil was shared as well.

I have a newer version of ista and the b58 and s58 is still checked in the oil comparability charts, there have been no changes to bearings or oil squirters during that time either so oil clearance shouldn't have changed and thus isn't an issue. The same was said about the m2 and when bearing tolerance data was pulled up it proved BMW specced enough tolerance, and all the speculation about tolerance was nonsense as proven by BMW's approval of low kv100 40 weight oils for ll01. What did change during 2016 (b58 release) and now is stricter German emissions which is why thinner oils are being used.


UOA's show increased wear with FE oils, that's where the doubt comes in. Then you look at ll01 approved oils which generally come with Porsche a40 (multiple hour Nurburgring test to ensure oil doesn't break down) and mb229.5 approvals, then you see how much more stringent these tests are and you see ll01 has a timing chain test which should be relevant for the b58 since the timing chain is in the rear of the engine making it impossible to service without dropping the motor. So you start to see better certifications as well when moving to a better oil.


BMW does have a mandated minimum HTHS ll01 is 3.5, but the reason why they're going thinner has nothing to do with what the engine can handle, it has to do with parasitic loss and emissions. So you want to have a good HTHS for the viscosity the engine can utilize which will result in as much protection as feasibly possible and this is why base stock is important because you can achieve major HTHS ratings without sacrificing viscosity. motul sport 300v 40 weight oil gets into the high 4 HTHS range due to its heavy ester base stock and that's almost 10w60 oil without the viscosity penalty. It's about finding the balance between shear strength and viscosity without going too thick, and FE oils have been proven to be garbage for protection and BMW moving to an even thinner fe oil doesn't help.


Btw GDI engines have more fuel dilution issues than pi engines, a thinner oil will suffer even more from that and thus sacrifice even more protection.


Look at some b58 UOA and you'll start to see BMW Fe oils suck vs. non Fe oils.
If you have any proper peer reviewed info on why FE oils are not adequate, I would be interested to review it, as tribology research doesn't seem to correlate with Internet oil paranoia, neither do statistical failures from reliability info for vehicles running the B58 engine.

From the data on Motul Sport 300V 5w40, at an HTHS of 4.5 it is still quite a way from Castrol 10w60 with a HTHS of 5.2, but again HTHS in itself has no significant meaning when the engine is engineered to use a lower viscocity oil with a subsequently lower HTHS.

I've seen plenty of good UOAs from BMW 0w20 oils on stock engines, just can't compare with the results from a non-stock engine.
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      04-28-2022, 05:52 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by aerobod View Post
If you have any proper peer reviewed info on why FE oils are not adequate, I would be interested to review it, as tribology research doesn't seem to correlate with Internet oil paranoia, neither do statistical failures from reliability info for vehicles running the B58 engine.

From the data on Motul Sport 300V 5w40, at an HTHS of 4.5 it is still quite a way from Castrol 10w60 with a HTHS of 5.2, but again HTHS in itself has no significant meaning when the engine is engineered to use a lower viscocity oil with a subsequently lower HTHS.

I've seen plenty of good UOAs from BMW 0w20 oils on stock engines, just can't compare with the results from a non-stock engine.
Unfortunately oil companies dont like to fund research discrediting their own products, so the best data we have is UOA done in per oil change and done extensively by the fine folks at BIOTG. Note most of them are engineers at major oil companies formulating this stuff, so clearly they know what they're talking about.

Also an engine isn't "engineered" to run an oil, the oil is engineered/formulated to meet an engines requirements. What dictates if an engine can use said oil is indeed oil passage clearance and since the b58 passes LL01 it can handle up to select 5w40 oils (low kv100 oils). So the notion that the b58 can only run 0w20 is moot, and the only reason why these cars run low viscosity FE oils are to meet the extremely stringent german emissions targets.
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      04-28-2022, 06:37 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by F87source View Post
Unfortunately oil companies dont like to fund research discrediting their own products, so the best data we have is UOA done in per oil change and done extensively by the fine folks at BIOTG. Note most of them are engineers at major oil companies formulating this stuff, so clearly they know what they're talking about.

Also an engine isn't "engineered" to run an oil, the oil is engineered/formulated to meet an engines requirements. What dictates if an engine can use said oil is indeed oil passage clearance and since the b58 passes LL01 it can handle up to select 5w40 oils (low kv100 oils). So the notion that the b58 can only run 0w20 is moot, and the only reason why these cars run low viscosity FE oils are to meet the extremely stringent german emissions targets.
As an engineer myself, the term "engineered" is relevant to marry a diverse set of requirements to a design outcome, both the oil spec and component design specs have specific goals and the engine in general would not be designed and then a specific oil created to meet it's needs. The iterative design / engineering / certification process will use and reuse relevant components.

It is not clear that the B58 does pass the use of Xw40 LL-01 oils, as the ISTA-D info in older version does show LL-01, but any BMW documentation only shows 5w30 LL-01 oils for the B58 or 0w30 LL-01FE oils (besides the recommended LL-0117FE+). So the issue maybe that it was never properly documented This SIB that just pre-dates the B58 lists LL-01 available from BMW that are only 5w30, there are no listed 0w40 or 5w40 line items: https://www.tsbsearch.com/BMW/SI-B11-01-15

There are also revisions of the LL-01 standard, with the latest being LL-01 (2018), but finding the content seems difficult, to determine whether the current LL-01 standard actually supports anything beyond 5w30.
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      04-28-2022, 06:55 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by aerobod View Post
As an engineer myself, the term "engineered" is relevant to marry a diverse set of requirements to a design outcome, both the oil spec and component design specs have specific goals and the engine in general would not be designed and then a specific oil created to meet it's needs. The iterative design / engineering / certification process will use and reuse relevant components.

It is not clear that the B58 does pass the use of Xw40 LL-01 oils, as the ISTA-D info in older version does show LL-01, but any BMW documentation only shows 5w30 LL-01 oils for the B58 or 0w30 LL-01FE oils (besides the recommended LL-0117FE+). So the issue maybe that it was never properly documented This SIB that just pre-dates the B58 lists LL-01 available from BMW that are only 5w30, there are no listed 0w40 or 5w40 line items: https://www.tsbsearch.com/BMW/SI-B11-01-15

There are also revisions of the LL-01 standard, with the latest being LL-01 (2018), but finding the content seems difficult, to determine whether the current LL-01 standard actually supports anything beyond 5w30.
The tsb from bmw only shows the bmw oils, they have another one for all approved oils that carry LL01. I will get it for you when I get a chance.


LL01 has been improved over the years to include a timing chain test and be even more rigourous in terms of oxidation. If you look at after market oils like PPE 5w40 motul Xcess gen 2 5W40 you can see they carry LL01 and the latter was just released in 2021 or 2022 (and they both still to this day still carry LL01) showing that these oils do indeed still conform to BMW's ll01 standard and thus appliciable to bmw engines such as the b58 and s58.


IMO at the very least if I were a B58 owner I would move away from FE oils - if possible during warranty by dealership approved oil swaps to an ll01 oil, or wait until warranty is over and move to a different non Fe oil. They trade so much protection for fuel economy. I believe dealers can still give you a 5w30 LL01 variant if you request it, this oil was made by shell for bmw (well unless it is all replaced by castrol now) and was really really really damn good oil. But this is what alot of guys did to get out of LL01 Fe and use LL01 oils.
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      04-28-2022, 07:03 PM   #40
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There seems to be a particularly North American resistance to change based on experience elsewhere in embracing advances in technology. My knowledge of UK based BMWs, the use of 2-year oil change intervals (when using a proper Group III or IV synthetic, not most of the stuff that is allowed to be called "synthetic" in North America) and the lack of any major issues in BMW engined cars that have been using 0w20 oils now since at least 2015 (together with almost every other manufacturer, including Porsche now), lead me to the conclusion that quality 0w20 oils in a fairly low stressed engine like the B58 (low rev limit, conservative boost pressures as stock) actually work very well.
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      04-28-2022, 07:23 PM   #41
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aerobod F87source you both make excellent points, and I'm not sure who is right yet, but thank you for the excellent read and civil back-and-forth. I love this stuff (fellow engineer).
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      04-28-2022, 07:25 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aerobod View Post
There seems to be a particularly North American resistance to change based on experience elsewhere in embracing advances in technology. My knowledge of UK based BMWs, the use of 2-year oil change intervals (when using a proper Group III or IV synthetic, not most of the stuff that is allowed to be called "synthetic" in North America) and the lack of any major issues in BMW engined cars that have been using 0w20 oils now since at least 2015 (together with almost every other manufacturer, including Porsche now), lead me to the conclusion that quality 0w20 oils in a fairly low stressed engine like the B58 (low rev limit, conservative boost pressures as stock) actually work very well.
The thing is UOA's don't lie and it still shows these FE oils don't protect as well because they keep prioritizing fuel economy.

2 year oci's would be a stretch, but with ll01 certificatations it might be doable because ll01 has insanely stringent oxidation standards. But with Pao heavy oils it probably won't make it 2 years because paos and esters oxidize too quickly, and why Castrol edge 0w30 and 0w40 don't have BMW ll01 certificatations because it can't meet the stringent oxidation tests.

I wouldn't call the b58 a low stressed engine, it's running a bit more boost than the n55 and n54 stock, it revs to 7k which is still really high compared to other engines on the market, and the main issue is that it still runs very hot oil and coolant temps (for efficiency) like the n5x engines did. So I wouldn't want to run an FE oil let alone a 20 weight FE oil in the 2.6 - 3.1 HTHS area. If 0w30 fe oil was considered to be not too good (with UOA's on BITOG) with an HTHS over 3.0 the 20 weight version isn't going to improve upon that, it likely would be even worse.
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      04-28-2022, 08:35 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by F87source View Post
The thing is UOA's don't lie and it still shows these FE oils don't protect as well because they keep prioritizing fuel economy.

2 year oci's would be a stretch, but with ll01 certificatations it might be doable because ll01 has insanely stringent oxidation standards. But with Pao heavy oils it probably won't make it 2 years because paos and esters oxidize too quickly, and why Castrol edge 0w30 and 0w40 don't have BMW ll01 certificatations because it can't meet the stringent oxidation tests.

I wouldn't call the b58 a low stressed engine, it's running a bit more boost than the n55 and n54 stock, it revs to 7k which is still really high compared to other engines on the market, and the main issue is that it still runs very hot oil and coolant temps (for efficiency) like the n5x engines did. So I wouldn't want to run an FE oil let alone a 20 weight FE oil in the 2.6 - 3.1 HTHS area. If 0w30 fe oil was considered to be not too good (with UOA's on BITOG) with an HTHS over 3.0 the 20 weight version isn't going to improve upon that, it likely would be even worse.
I'd look at a high stressed stock engine as something putting out over 100bhp per litre naturally aspirated, or 150bhp forced induction and revving over 7,500RPM. The only stock BMW engines I would put into that classification are ///M orientated ones at the moment. Needs high piston speeds and induction pressures to have to worry about using anything other than a mainstream oil (whcih 0w20 is right in the middle of these days).

Other than a few points of discussion on BITOG and some car forums, I don't see stock engines giving anything unusual using 0w20 oil. Many oil interpretations also can't separate oil chemistry from engine chemistry for many of the elements. I don't know of anyone who has bought a new car over the past 10 years that has any oil related issues. Googling UOA for b58 brings up lots of stock engines with Blackstone reports indicating great oil results with 0w20 fill. Non-stock engines are a different matter though, as they are operating outside of the manufacturer design parameters (higher bearing loads due to increased boost, higher redlines, richer mixtures, etc would all invalidate stock maintenance needs or warranty for that matter)..

Empirically of the tens of milions of cars put on the road around the workd over the past 15 years running Xw20 oil, there doesn't seem to be any statistical issue of longevity with vehicle mechanical reliability as good as it has ever been.

In the BMW group 2021 2.5 million vehicles produced, the majority now have 0w20 from the factory. The majority of Porsches also now leave the factory with C20 certified 0w20 (most are SUVs these days, of course). I can't think of a mainstream manufacturer worldwide that isn't specifying either 0w16 or 0w20 on most of their ICE vehicles these days.

If you see an impending implosion of engines due to oil failures before the rest of the vehicle is ready for the scrap heap, then maybe a wise move to invest in engine rebuilders?
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      04-28-2022, 09:13 PM   #44
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I'd look at a high stressed stock engine as something putting out over 100bhp per litre naturally aspirated, or 150bhp forced induction and revving over 7,500RPM. The only stock BMW engines I would put into that classification are ///M orientated ones at the moment. Needs high piston speeds and induction pressures to have to worry about using anything other than a mainstream oil (whcih 0w20 is right in the middle of these days).

Other than a few points of discussion on BITOG and some car forums, I don't see stock engines giving anything unusual using 0w20 oil. Many oil interpretations also can't separate oil chemistry from engine chemistry for many of the elements. I don't know of anyone who has bought a new car over the past 10 years that has any oil related issues. Googling UOA for b58 brings up lots of stock engines with Blackstone reports indicating great oil results with 0w20 fill. Non-stock engines are a different matter though, as they are operating outside of the manufacturer design parameters (higher bearing loads due to increased boost, higher redlines, richer mixtures, etc would all invalidate stock maintenance needs or warranty for that matter)..

Empirically of the tens of milions of cars put on the road around the workd over the past 15 years running Xw20 oil, there doesn't seem to be any statistical issue of longevity with vehicle mechanical reliability as good as it has ever been.

In the BMW group 2021 2.5 million vehicles produced, the majority now have 0w20 from the factory. The majority of Porsches also now leave the factory with C20 certified 0w20 (most are SUVs these days, of course). I can't think of a mainstream manufacturer worldwide that isn't specifying either 0w16 or 0w20 on most of their ICE vehicles these days.

If you see an impending implosion of engines due to oil failures before the rest of the vehicle is ready for the scrap heap, then maybe a wise move to invest in engine rebuilders?
BITOG is full of oil enthusiasts and chemic engineers in the industry, they back their talking points up with data not unsubstantiated feelings about what BMW did with their engines.


That's the thing, it isn't back and white like you make it out to be. BMW isn't going to put in an oil that will grenade the engine during the warranty period but they're also trying to hit emissions as best as they can so the oil will not be as protective as a non FE oil which is only focused on protection. So the key focus is long term. Btw Porsche c20 is not as rigorous as Porsche a40, it's like comparing ll01fe vs ll01, but with an even bigger delta because a40 is one of the most if not the most stringent oil test.


So the end point is do you want to do everything possible to make the engine last as long as possible? Yes - ditch the FE oil for something with better protection, no - do whatever you want.


Either way I don't care anymore, this is a review thread not an oil thread.
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