[kboi]

I dailyed a e46 330i for the past 3 years, it was a manual transmission. I purchased a A/T 2016 M235i for roughly 28k with 32k miles. The deal seemed good and I originally really wanted the Zf8, loved the feel. Now I miss manual and am looking to trade the car in for a manual but dont want to spend more money. However, I'm thinking of making a trade at a local dealership and trying to bargain 0 out the door for a e46 m3 with about 70k miles. I do miss the raw feeling of my 330i. Is this a stupid idea? How much is a good condition e46 m3 worth now days?

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by kboi

I'm thinking of making a trade at a local dealership

My first thought is that you're going to come out many thousands behind by inserting a dealer into your change of vehicle, and that that is a given.

Next, are there any retail BMW dealers that have any E46s, much less E46 M3s? There might be a very few, sprinkled around the country, but most E46 M3 owners of cars that are in decent shape are likely to understand very well that trading their cars at a BMW dealer is a losing proposition.

FWIW, here are three E46 MT M3s now listed on BMWCCA's site (with no guarantees they're still available):

2004 $33K 76K https://www.bmwcca.org/ads/278426
2006 $40K 100K https://www.bmwcca.org/ads/279026
2005 $60K 25K https://www.bmwcca.org/ads/278386

Alternatively, you can go to a place like Enthusiast Auto for top-of-the-line E46 M3s: https://enthusiastauto.com/bmw/m3series/e46-m3.html. There's no question that EA's cars come at a price, and that it is outfits like EA that are scouring the country daily to acquire and prepare/restore M3s to be top-quality restorations for resale to discerning buyers.

Full disclosure: I use EA's body shop and can confirm that it does excellent work. After having spoken to buyers of EA's cars, my impression is that they offer cars that are in as close to as-new condition as connoisseurs of older BMWs who have money to spend demand.

Something to keep in mind: if you acquire a high-quality manual transmission E46 M3 and maintain it in excellent condition, it is likely to increase in value over time. I suggest "likely" because I'm too cautious to say "is almost certainly to". I also believe this would likely hold true in terms of inflation-adjusted dollars. IOW, we're talking about a collectible car.

If you acquire the more typical high-mileage and, possibly, minimally-maintained, three-previous-owner E46 M3, you might be buying a money pit. That could still be okay if you do your own work on the car. I can't do that and so am always sensitive to what the running costs are of any car I buy - used and/or older, newish, whatever.

[XutvJet]

An E46 M3 is one of the BMW greats. It was built at a time when BMW long-term quality wasn't so great. These cars are getting WAY up there in age and they are neither cheap to buy or maintain. The cars aren't overly difficult to maintain and work on, but we're talking about cars that have been on the road for 18 to 23 years and some parts are now difficult to source.

Although not as connected, an M235 is both faster and better handling than a E46 M3. The M235 outran the 1M by 2 seconds on the Ring under BMW's testing and the 1M was a bit faster than the E46 M3 at the Ring. Add an LSD to the M235 and some wider rubber up front plus some very mild suspension work, and the M235 is quite a bit better performing and will have a lot more connection though still not as good as the E46 M3 and will never look as good.

I think the E46 M3 is an amazing car and one of the automotive greats, but due to it's age, it's more a ideal choice for as a 2nd fun, weekend car and not a daily driver unless you're an excellent DIYer with a ton of tools and a lift.

If you're wanting more connection, I'd suggest test driving a 2016-2018 M2 6MT. It may work for you. Or maybe pickup an NB/NC Miata as a 2nd car and track it out.

[kboi]

I appreciate all the advice guys. Today I took the time to test drive a E46 at the dealership and my gosh I fell in love. Its exactly the feeling am looking for! I tried to make a deal with there car but the car was in poor condition and they were asking for so much. Looks like some guy tried to paint correct the car with no polish compound and they were asking 39k @ 85k miles.

I will be looking to sell my car or trade it without a dealership. This is the first time with my six previous purchases I tried a dealer. There all smokin somethin...

[pikcachu]

now is not really the time to be buying cars....

[Oltimer]

sounds like you've accepted the fact you'll be spending (loosing) big bucks here! so is it out of the realms of possibilities to spend the money and find a transmission specialist that can convert your M235i to a proper manual, just saying.

[morphomeman]

Buying a used performance vehicle always carries a high risk, because these cars are often driven to the limit, not always by competent drivers. The older the vehicle, the higher the risk. This is especially true of models like the E46, which were never known for their longevity. I owned one, the best car ever, but at about a dozen years it started to disintegrate under me (and it was not a performance model). I held on until my mechanic read me the riot act.
If you are thinking of going that route, be sure to have any candidate checked out by someone who knows these cars well before you embark on what may be a trail of tears.

[freakystyly]

A car like that should be viewed more of a weekend project than a daily driver until you have gone over it. If you need a car to hop in and drive without worries, a nearly 2 decade old car in general might not be a wise choice.

They're still highly sought after so the pricing is already nearly bottomed out...

[kboi]

Originally Posted by Oltimer

sounds like you've accepted the fact you'll be spending (loosing) big bucks here! so is it out of the realms of possibilities to spend the money and find a transmission specialist that can convert your M235i to a proper manual, just saying.

You make a point I thought about doing this myself as there is a swap kit currently on eBay. How about software and engine management I feel like the engine and transmission are programmed to work together. I can't imagine it to me a easy job to swap it. Unless its simpler I would consider.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by kboi

You make a point I thought about doing this myself as there is a swap kit currently on eBay. How about software and engine management I feel like the engine and transmission are programmed to work together. I can't imagine it to me a easy job to swap it. Unless its simpler I would consider.

It would be far cheaper to sell your M235 auto and buy a 6MT. You can probably count on one hand the people in the entire world capable of making this swap happen without any coding issues. These cars are just to integrated with all the various modules and computers on the car. This isn't like doing an auto to manual swap in a 1990s Honda

[Cos270]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

An E46 M3 is one of the BMW greats. It was built at a time when BMW long-term quality wasn't so great. These cars are getting WAY up there in age and they are neither cheap to buy or maintain. The cars aren't overly difficult to maintain and work on, but we're talking about cars that have been on the road for 18 to 23 years and some parts are now difficult to source.

Although not as connected, an M235 is both faster and better handling than a E46 M3. The M235 outran the 1M by 2 seconds on the Ring under BMW's testing and the 1M was a bit faster than the E46 M3 at the Ring. Add an LSD to the M235 and some wider rubber up front plus some very mild suspension work, and the M235 is quite a bit better performing and will have a lot more connection though still not as good as the E46 M3 and will never look as good.

I think the E46 M3 is an amazing car and one of the automotive greats, but due to it's age, it's more a ideal choice for as a 2nd fun, weekend car and not a daily driver unless you're an excellent DIYer with a ton of tools and a lift.

If you're wanting more connection, I'd suggest test driving a 2016-2018 M2 6MT. It may work for you. Or maybe pickup an NB/NC Miata as a 2nd car and track it out.

I was trying to find some videos/info on M235i ring times the other day and came up empty handed. Just curious if you have any sources? Not questioning it or anything

[kboi]

Originally Posted by Cos270

I was trying to find some videos/info on M235i ring times the other day and came up empty handed. Just curious if you have any sources? Not questioning it or anything

There is a guy on YouTube who did it sub 8 stock. But I honestly don’t consider Nurburgring times important. The precision required to have “true” data is to high on such a long course there is room for error(driver, track conditions, etc). No doubt though I believe the M235 is faster that both the M and the e46.

[atek]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

It would be far cheaper to sell your M235 auto and buy a 6MT. You can probably count on one hand the people in the entire world capable of making this swap happen without any coding issues. These cars are just to integrated with all the various modules and computers on the car. This isn't like doing an auto to manual swap in a 1990s Honda

https://www.2addicts.com/forums/show....php?t=1713586

I don't think its as hard or specialized as you make it out to be. One individual here as already made it work, without going too crazy or seemingly spendy. I'd say it ultimately comes down to skill and route, if you are sourcing parts yourself, and doing it your self vs paying someone else to do it vs sourcing parts your self and then paying someone else to do it. Parts for that AWD 6spd swap added up to 2040.53. Now if you get a shop to do it, yea that number can climb to $20k+ quickly depending on where and how.

I'm also planning on swapping my auto M235i in the future, which is why I've been looking into it. Really doesn't seem too involved outside what I'd already expect. The simpler your trim the better (no driver aids = easier).

For the E46 M3, it will cost you a good grip about equal or more than the cost of the M235i/M240i to get a fine running example that's already been gone through.

They typically need a lot of maintenance to get it to par of being reliable enough to daily, and even still I'd also side with the notion that its better off as a weekend / occasional fun car.

[celsdogg]

I'm in the same boat as you OP.

I've wanted an E46 M3 since they came out in 2001. It just never happened for whatever reason.

My wife had an '02 325i. She lost that due to being rear ended and got an F30. She has a license plate frame that says "I miss my E46".

I recently was looking for an LCI E90 328i for my son but "stumbled" on a very clean '03 325i. It's in silver, very period correct, but a color I don't like. But everytime I leave the house and come home, it catches my eye like no other.

Then, I was driving my F22 on vacation to Maine and I decided, I want to sell it. I don't love my M235i like that.

At this point we can still fetch a fair amount of loot for the F22 since the cost of everything is up. Even before this, the E46 M3 value was on the rise for good reason. I even decided I'd be fine with a ZHP in Imola.

Their are a lot of cons with this switch. All my friends think I'm crazy. But the E46 was the hook that pulled me into Bimmers.

I'm looking. . .

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by atek

https://www.2addicts.com/forums/show....php?t=1713586

I don't think its as hard or specialized as you make it out to be. One individual here as already made it work, without going too crazy or seemingly spendy. I'd say it ultimately comes down to skill and route, if you are sourcing parts yourself, and doing it your self vs paying someone else to do it vs sourcing parts your self and then paying someone else to do it. Parts for that AWD 6spd swap added up to 2040.53. Now if you get a shop to do it, yea that number can climb to $20k+ quickly depending on where and how.

I'm also planning on swapping my auto M235i in the future, which is why I've been looking into it. Really doesn't seem too involved outside what I'd already expect. The simpler your trim the better (no driver aids = easier).

Coding is pretty complex and the person that did the swap has to use two different keys for the car in order to get all the modules to work correctly and the car to run correctly. If you're good with a wrench and know ISTA like the back your hand and can deal with using two keys to operate the car, it's not that bad. Otherwise, for the other 99.98+% of the population out there that don't have these skills, finding a mechanic that is willing to do this will 1) Be next to impossible to find and if you find them, 2) cost you a fortune to do the work. Most mechanics work on book time and there is no book time for something like this. Mechanics also don't like work like this because the chances are extremely high that the customer will constantly be coming back to them to help address issues that he likely doesn't have an answer for. Thus the response from most mechanics for a swap like this is "No thanks" or "$XX,XXX and no guarantee that this will work".

[atek]

Yes, like I said, the simpler the car the better. As-in, the less extra features you need or want, the easier it is to complete. And yes, most performance shops charge $200/hr and a swap like this may take up to 100 hours or more [i used to work for a perfomance shop, and have friends that still do), which is why i started the ballpark at $20k for the labor side from a shop.

Some places that specialize in euros or bmw's will offer turn-key swap packages, just gotta look around. Remember, I come from the world of aftermarket performance swaps and such, where there is a will there is a way. And often times, cost is not of the issue to have something you really want in the realm of cars. This lifestyle and thought process isn't or everyone, only reserved for the die hard car enthusiast like myself.

If OP really wanted it, like the previous guy who has done it- they will do it.

[Bobdaxx]

look for you tuber M Gott
he is an incredible driver and has some 235 vids
he took a 2018 M2 around the ring faster than a 2020 m2c driven by a "professional"

trust me M Gott will not leave you wanting for 235 videos

[PeanuKeeyes]

The E46 M3 is such an emotional car. I totally understand the urge to trade in. My vote however is to look at the M2. The OG M2 is a great car. I personally like it better than the M2C - call me crazy. At this point, I think the ZHP’s on BAT would be my only path back into an E46 platform. M3’s are a full time job.

[kboi]

Originally Posted by PeanuKeeyes

The E46 M3 is such an emotional car. I totally understand the urge to trade in. My vote however is to look at the M2. The OG M2 is a great car. I personally like it better than the M2C - call me crazy. At this point, I think the ZHP’s on BAT would be my only path back into an E46 platform. M3’s are a full time job.

I’m with you on the emotional part, ha. Are they really full time jobs? I had a e46 330. I just overhauled the cooling system and changed the vanos. Besides that water pump failing and crank angle sensor. It was good from 90k to 140k(I sold it). I was alway driving her hard.

[PeanuKeeyes]

Depends on your usage, as others have suggested. As a daily driver, I think I would be annoyed by constant gremlins and the occasional high cost issue that will inevitably arise. You might get lucky though if you spend enough for a really well maintained example — I could see it brining nothing but smiles for awhile. I have an older BMW with the M50 engine, and while I can say it is pretty much bullet proof, everything else (and I mean *everything* else) has needed attention aside from that motor. It would drive me crazy as a daily. I don’t know enough about long term E46 ownership but I suspect it would be a similar experience as it moves into 20 year old zone. But like I said.. I get it! And YOLO

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by PeanuKeeyes

if you spend enough for a really well maintained example — I could see it brining nothing but smiles for awhile.

That's why I mentioned Enthusiast Auto; their principal market is buyers who want an older M-car that won't need anything for some time to come. My guess is that their prices are in or near collector car territory. I'd also guess most of their buyers don't DD the cars after paying so much for them.

If nothing else, EA's E46 M3 page is worth drooling over. I look at this one and have to stop myself from driving over there right now: https://enthusiastauto.com/bmw/m3ser...-pkg-2491.html

[kboi]

Originally Posted by dradernh

That's why I mentioned Enthusiast Auto. If nothing else, EA's E46 M3 page is worth drooling over. I look at this one and have to stop myself from driving over there right now: https://enthusiastauto.com/bmw/m3ser...-pkg-2491.html

I was considering enthusiastauto, I called to get there price. 64k is the lowest! As much as I want one I don’t think I’ll sell my track car and my 235 for one ha! Or will I?