[CarsAndGuitars]

Toyota is doing enthusiasts "a favor" by not requiring an upcharge for a stick. It was 10 years ago or less, that an auto was the premium option and a manual trans was included as the base option on most cars that offered both. Its a never-ending money-grab.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a4...o-cost-option/

[Equilibrandt]

Got to disagree here about the money grab.

There's a huge push toward having everyone drive automatics for emissions reasons. Probably equal cost to make both transmissions but more incentives to sell autos. IMO, manuals should be the 'upgrade' for enthusiasts.

[CarsAndGuitars]

Originally Posted by Equilibrandt

Got to disagree here about the money grab.

There's a huge push toward having everyone drive automatics for emissions reasons. Probably equal cost to make both transmissions but more incentives to sell autos. IMO, manuals should be the 'upgrade' for enthusiasts.

Except automatics were the upgrade since they were introduced into the mainstream > 60 years ago.

If not a money grab, then political agendas are playing into the price of car options. Not sure which is worse

[Equilibrandt]

Originally Posted by CarsAndGuitars

Except automatics were the upgrade since they were introduced into the mainstream > 60 years ago.

If not a money grab, then political agendas are playing into the price of car options. Not sure which is worse

Manuals were only cheaper in the past because they were cheaper to make.
Now the costs and performance are nearly identical. Lower demand, niche market = more expensive option.

[Humdizzle]

creating a new trans option, especially a manual is costly though. you can throw the controls for an automatic trans anywhere or just have a few buttons.

for a manual you need adequate space in the footwell for 3 pedals + a dead pedal. the gear stick has to in a comfortable position. interior design elements likely need to be changed around the shift boot. you need an physical linkage from the gearknob to the trans. you dont want the stick blocking hvac controls. etc etc.

[CarsAndGuitars]

Originally Posted by Equilibrandt

Manuals were only cheaper in the past because they were cheaper to make.
Now the costs and performance are nearly identical. Lower demand, niche market = more expensive option = money grab.

Thanks for making my point.

That said, I can't see how a manual and auto are possibly the same price to develop and manufacture. For the most part (other than possibly rev limiter / matching etc) a manual is shifted at the whim of the operator. A modern auto is more complex mechanically to begin with - and additionally is more deeply integrated, monitored and managed by the car's computers. How can those possibly cost the same to design and manufacture?

[CarsAndGuitars]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

creating a new trans option, especially a manual is costly though. you can throw the controls for an automatic trans anywhere or just have a few buttons.

for a manual you need adequate space in the footwell for 3 pedals + a dead pedal. the gear stick has to in a comfortable position. interior design elements likely need to be changed around the shift boot. you need an physical linkage from the gearknob to the trans. you dont want the stick blocking hvac controls. etc etc.

I doubt the integration of a stick was only designed as an afterthought. There is no way Toyota (if not BMW) didn't consider the possibility and make accommodations.

[hihowareyougood]

Originally Posted by CarsAndGuitars

I doubt the integration of a stick was only designed as an afterthought. There is no way Toyota (if not BMW) didn't consider the possibility and make accommodations.

I can only assume that putting a new drivetrain configuration to market is not cheap. Automakers have to comply with government regulations (i.e. emissions, safety) and I doubt they can just say "hey look it's just a 6mt, everything is the same" and it'll fly with the feds. That, combined with lower economies of scale since Toyota doesn't seem to sell more than 7,500 a year so far in NA, it seems almost logical to offer the manual as a no-cost option instead of offering a discount as those aforementioned fixed costs are spread over less inventory. Ultimately, it costs more overall to differentiate your product with two transmissions than to just keep it as an automatic.

[Efthreeoh]

Biggest cost for manual option is (a) crash testing, (b) addition logistics cost for parts and service.

[Humdizzle]

Originally Posted by CarsAndGuitars

I doubt the integration of a stick was only designed as an afterthought. There is no way Toyota (if not BMW) didn't consider the possibility and make accommodations.

hard to know. people were demanding a stick when the supra came out and didn't buy one solely because it was only a zf auto. no dct and no stick. they could have boosted sales if it was offered. but they didn't. its sister car the Z4 doesn't offer a stick.

maybe they had a deal worked out with BMW that they wouldn't offer it for a few years so they wouldn't steal M2 comp sales ?

[RM7]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

hard to know. people were demanding a stick when the supra came out and didn't buy one solely because it was only a zf auto. no dct and no stick. they could have boosted sales if it was offered. but they didn't. its sister car the Z4 doesn't offer a stick.

maybe they had a deal worked out with BMW that they wouldn't offer it for a few years so they wouldn't steal M2 comp sales ?

Sure, like 14 people. Maybe 1 of which who would have actually offered up the cash.

[yousefnjr]

They’re going out of their way to make this available for the folks that want it, at no cost, and somehow that’s a money grab?

[atek]

Originally Posted by yousefnjr

They’re going out of their way to make this available for the folks that want it, at no cost, and somehow that’s a money grab?

some people just love to hate even when their logic is flawed from the beginning.

[Humdizzle]

Originally Posted by RM7

Sure, like 14 people. Maybe 1 of which who would have actually offered up the cash.

idk about that. roughly 50% of M2s sold were manual, and 28% for the f80 in america. it was a selling point for me. if the f80 didn't offer a manual and i was forced to buy an auto i'd have gone with the c63 or something.

[spazzyfry123]

For something that is primarily an automatic vehicle, the small percent that would be a manual would require a retool at assembly. Additional cost for minimal return could render an up-charge.

Conversely, quite a few people buy Jeeps with manuals as an example, but it is an up-charge to get an automatic. Money grab?

[StradaRedlands]

I'd be happy to pay an upcharge if only I could! Most cars don't even give you the option!!!

[wtwo3]

Porsche still upcharges for the automatic in some of their models. For example the PDK is a $3,730 option over the standard manual transmission.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

idk about that. roughly 50% of M2s sold were manual, and 28% for the f80 in america. it was a selling point for me. if the f80 didn't offer a manual and i was forced to buy an auto i'd have gone with the c63 or something.

Was that just one particular year or time period? I've seen that number too, but every car at a dealership is auto and the uptake for just about everything where it's an option is heavily auto. No one orders or buys a manual except in rare occasions. It makes sense to offer it on some of these cars...but IMO the auto eclipses it on others. In other words, it meshes better with the car. The 4EAT was a horrible transmission that never should have found it's way onto the WRX, yet a PDK is a match made in heaven for a 911. A few cars can go either way, but I don't predicate this on a manual, because some cars are just better with their intended transmission.

I think it's fairly delusional to sit there holding out for manual transmissions (as a manual transmission owner), the "ain't no one got time for that" effect that has spread across multiple generations has killed it. With everyone having to buy a craftsman house, get a pool, graduate from college, get married, have 5 kids, buy some side-by-sides, etc., it's just been squeezed out of existence.

[heavyD^2]

So you want a manual transmission for a car that was originally designed to be just automatic and you want it cheaper? Talk about a "Look at me and how entitled I am." thread.

[KevinC]

I’d gladly pay a hefty up-charge for a hydraulic steering rack.

[jkoral]

Originally Posted by RM7

Was that just one particular year or time period?

I've only seen the breakdown for the OG model. Yes close to 50% in US/Canada, but overall worldwide, it's 25% manual:

https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1404565

Would love to see this breakdown for M2C.

[SteezeforMyBimmerMon]

What they are actually doing is charging you extra for the automatic and trying to make you feel better about it. I'll pay extra happily at this point, not a big deal. They probably sell so many fewer manuals nowadays that is makes less sense to offer it.