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2Addicts | BMW 2-Series forum Technical Topics B58 (M240i) Engine, Transmission, Exhaust, Tuning Dinan Intake & Stage 2 Tune

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      11-16-2018, 06:03 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by marcthedark View Post
And somehow I can't see how a "stage 2" is needed for a CAI .... adding a DP or so is different but "more air" should be easy for the ECU to adapt to (as the CAI works with the stock ECU).
Are there really differences adjusting the piggyback to the CAI (did someone do JB4 + CAI Dyno and then fiddled with it and Dyno'd again) or is this a just a clever marketing scheme?
It's the other way around, CAI is needed for a stage 2.
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      11-16-2018, 07:39 AM   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RotorOver View Post
It's the other way around, CAI is needed for a stage 2.
Stage 2 is normally DP.
Stock and Stock + CAI is normally Stage 1
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      11-16-2018, 10:06 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by marcthedark View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by RotorOver View Post
It's the other way around, CAI is needed for a stage 2.
Stage 2 is normally DP.
Stock and Stock + CAI is normally Stage 1
Not in the Dinan world - since a DP won't allow the system to maintain emission standards it's not incorporated.
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      11-16-2018, 10:45 AM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RotorOver View Post
Not in the Dinan world - since a DP won't allow the system to maintain emission standards it's not incorporated.
I know that Dinan handles it differently that is the reason for my post.

Why would a change to a tune be needed when you add a CAI? Dinan is (to my knowledge) the only one doing this. Everyone else has the same Stage 1 if you have a CAI or not.
Does a changed piggyback result in more HP/TQ vs Stage 1 and CAI?
Is the $ worth the result?
DP can maintain emission standards ... there are DP meeting EURO6 ... but they are not tested/approved in the US (or CA). Meeting standards and being approved are two different things.
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      11-16-2018, 01:41 PM   #159
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Very helpful thread. I had talked to installer about Stage 1 Tuner a couple weeks ago but then when I called back to schedule the install it was gone and V2 was offered in its place! I went ahead and scheduled for this Monday but was having second thoughts given lower power numbers. After reading this thread I think I’m going to go ahead and get the V2. Sounds like it corrects issues with the Stage 1 and is worth getting - notwithstanding lower power numbers. I welcome any thoughts on that decision.
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      11-16-2018, 02:15 PM   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LJA2 View Post
Very helpful thread. I had talked to installer about Stage 1 Tuner a couple weeks ago but then when I called back to schedule the install it was gone and V2 was offered in its place! I went ahead and scheduled for this Monday but was having second thoughts given lower power numbers. After reading this thread I think I’m going to go ahead and get the V2. Sounds like it corrects issues with the Stage 1 and is worth getting - notwithstanding lower power numbers. I welcome any thoughts on that decision.
I like to go fast as much as the next guy, but my thinking is that the difference is modest enough that they're just numbers.

I take my car to the track, where all the action is in the corners, and the power difference wouldn't make a material difference to me. At the strip it probably will, doing 60-130 pulls on the highway it probably will (mind you, I haven't compared Dinan's V1 & V2 dyno sheets in detail yet), and bigger numbers always sound better over a beer.

The more-torque-lower-down part sounds great for towing (), but the darn thing has so much torque already that I wouldn't be using it.

Given the issues with the V1, the fact that Dinan says it has created a tune with better driveability, and the warranty that comes with it, I think the V2 is a no-brainer. Those going for bigger numbers and/or additional features appear to have plenty of choices out there, too, and we're lucky to have so much from which to choose for this platform.
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      11-16-2018, 02:40 PM   #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dradernh View Post
I like to go fast as much as the next guy, but my thinking is that the difference is modest enough that they're just numbers.

I take my car to the track, where all the action is in the corners, and the power difference wouldn't make a material difference to me. At the strip it probably will, doing 60-130 pulls on the highway it probably will (mind you, I haven't compared Dinan's V1 & V2 dyno sheets in detail yet), and bigger numbers always sound better over a beer.

The more-torque-lower-down part sounds great for towing (), but the darn thing has so much torque already that I wouldn't be using it.

Given the issues with the V1, the fact that Dinan says it has created a tune with better driveability, and the warranty that comes with it, I think the V2 is a no-brainer. Those going for bigger numbers and/or additional features appear to have plenty of choices out there, too, and we're lucky to have so much from which to choose for this platform.
Thanks. This is my first foray into a tune or add-on of any kind to any car I’ve ever owned. I love driving the M240 and just wanted a little more oomph around town to go with the mostly cosmetic M Perf package that was on the car when I bought it (off showroom).
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      11-16-2018, 03:53 PM   #162
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Installed my Dinan intake today.
Not too hard.
I'm on my phone now so I'll post later with pictures and thoughts on how it feels driving.
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      11-16-2018, 04:55 PM   #163
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Does anyone know if people with stage 1 v1 can upgrade to v2?
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      11-16-2018, 07:54 PM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TakoMako View Post
Does anyone know if people with stage 1 v1 can upgrade to v2?
I don't think no one has this answer so far since so much mistery is still lingering in this ''silent'' change
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      11-16-2018, 08:05 PM   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marcthedark View Post
I know that Dinan handles it differently that is the reason for my post.

Why would a change to a tune be needed when you add a CAI? Dinan is (to my knowledge) the only one doing this. Everyone else has the same Stage 1 if you have a CAI or not.
Does a changed piggyback result in more HP/TQ vs Stage 1 and CAI?
Is the $ worth the result?
DP can maintain emission standards ... there are DP meeting EURO6 ... but they are not tested/approved in the US (or CA). Meeting standards and being approved are two different things.
The original stage 1 works with the CAI with no adjustment just as the stock ECU tune self-adjusts, as you mentioned. Since the JB4 can run different maps I can see folks tweaking things, but not possible with the Dinan and I don't think you get the same OEM drive-ability. Maybe someone who has done the swap can say whether it's worth it. I get your concern since you are throwing hard earned money at it and want to get max bang for your buck.

One thing many people don't realize is that it is illegal to replace an OEM catalytic converter (either catless or hi flow dp does this) unless it has failed and then it can only be replaced by an OEM equivalent, so in no case is a catless or hi flow cat legal and that's why Dinan doesn't touch it, so they can claim emissions legal mods. The difficulty in enforcement is how folks with a hi flow cat or a catless dp, spacer and JB4 pass emissions because they "meet" standards by hitting the numbers or trick fucking the test and the lack of a true inspection.
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      11-17-2018, 10:00 AM   #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dradernh View Post
the difference is modest enough that they're just numbers.

and bigger numbers always sound better over a beer.

The more-torque-lower-down part sounds great for towing (), but the darn thing has so much torque already that I wouldn't be using it.

Given the issues with the V1, the fact that Dinan says it has created a tune with better driveability, and the warranty that comes with it, I think the V2 is a no-brainer. Those going for bigger numbers and/or additional features appear to have plenty of choices out there, too, and we're lucky to have so much from which to choose for this platform.
^
This

Numbers are that, just numbers. I have the original Stage 1 and was taken aback when I saw the .v2 numbers (I have also thrown a CEL w/ mine driving normally).

I never race my car nor do I run it WOT, so what real difference is a bit less going to make. Seems like we all put a bit too much store in published numbers, be they HP/TQ or 0-60/1/4 mile times.
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      11-17-2018, 10:24 AM   #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USA-RET View Post
^
This

Numbers are that, just numbers. I have the original Stage 1 and was taken aback when I saw the .v2 numbers (I have also thrown a CEL w/ mine driving normally).

I never race my car nor do I run it WOT, so what real difference is a bit less going to make. Seems like we all put a bit too much store in published numbers, be they HP/TQ or 0-60/1/4 mile times.
Agreed. That said, however, I don’t want to spend $1100 plus installation if the car is not going to see a material difference in performance. And with this product being new there’s no track record ...
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      11-17-2018, 12:35 PM   #168
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Having a 2015 Mini Cooper I added JCW tune (which showed only moderate gains in HP and TQ on paper). I was worried that I wouldn't see much difference and the cost was twice what the Dinan tune is. I decided to roll the dice and do not regret it at all.

I got the car back and was more than happy w/ the gains. Immediately noticeable and making the car a blast to drive.

FWIW, I thought about trading my tuned Mini (only added the JCW tune and wheels and tires) in for a full 2019 JCW Mini and after comparing the two cars, back to back w/ a Salesman w/ me. I'm keeping my tuned car. Even the salesman admitted that my tuned car felt faster and more responsive than the JCW. I mean noticeably better.

I'd wager, you'll see even more of a change in your car's performance w/ the Dinan than I saw in my Mini.

Not trying to spend your money for you, but I'd allay any fears that your car won't be noticeably faster w/ the Dinan .V2.
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      11-17-2018, 02:36 PM   #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USA-RET View Post
Having a 2015 Mini Cooper I added JCW tune (which showed only moderate gains in HP and TQ on paper). I was worried that I wouldn't see much difference and the cost was twice what the Dinan tune is. I decided to roll the dice and do not regret it at all.

I got the car back and was more than happy w/ the gains. Immediately noticeable and making the car a blast to drive.

FWIW, I thought about trading my tuned Mini (only added the JCW tune and wheels and tires) in for a full 2019 JCW Mini and after comparing the two cars, back to back w/ a Salesman w/ me. I'm keeping my tuned car. Even the salesman admitted that my tuned car felt faster and more responsive than the JCW. I mean noticeably better.

I'd wager, you'll see even more of a change in your car's performance w/ the Dinan than I saw in my Mini.

Not trying to spend your money for you, but I'd allay any fears that your car won't be noticeably faster w/ the Dinan .V2.
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      11-17-2018, 02:56 PM   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USA-RET View Post
Seems like we all put a bit too much store in published numbers, be they HP/TQ or 0-60/1/4 mile times.
Owners who want numbers they can put store in will take their car to a dyno and have it dyno'd on the same day both before and after upgrading. They'll also allow the car to cool completely between each set of pulls. That produces hard data that an owner can rely upon.

This is especially true in terms of the percentage of increase in HP and torque, as different dynos produce numbers in different ranges. My experience is that a Dynapak, for example, will produce numbers ~10% less than a Dynojet. The former was used by both Dinan and Turner Motorsports when I had cars tuned in their shops, and by the tuner I used for a BMW race car. NASA requires that RWD and FWD race cars use a Dynojet for car classification purposes - I certainly got a kick out of seeing the big numbers produced by that machine!

Quote:
Originally Posted by LJA2 View Post
I don’t want to spend $1100 plus installation if the car is not going to see a material difference in performance. And with this product being new there’s no track record ...
For sure! Dinan, however, has a very long track record of reliably producing results. That's why BMW has a relationship with the company.

I just looked at the V2 data on Dinan's site. It shows a 9.7% increase in peak HP and an 8.2% increase in peak torque over the base data produced by the M240i they used. While you'll certainly notice this increase if you drive in a way that uses most or all of the car's power, it's not going to be an earth-shattering improvement in performance. OTOH, it's likely little enough additional power that you can confidently use it without worrying about damaging your drivetrain.

As always, just my 2¢.
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      11-17-2018, 09:53 PM   #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tennisfreak View Post
Dinan_Engineering can someone please explain to us what is going on?

I am a stage 1 owner who is/was waiting on stage 2.

Why has stage 1 been pulled from the market?
What is the purpose of the v2?
Why have the number of connections been reduced from 4 to 2? Is this because of all the failures on stage 1? If so, as a stage 1 owner, should I be concerned?

Your responses would be greatly appreciated.
Apologize for the delayed response. Was on a week and a half long vacation and apparently no one bothered to check the social channels in my absence. =/

V2 is an evolution from V1 that irons out some reliability issues that occur in a minority population of V1 units. Power curve has been altered, and specifically, some torque values reduced to allow for a more reliable solution. Pricing has been reduced as a result to compensate for those differences as well.

As far as current V1 owners go there is nothing to worry about. There is nothing wrong with the V1 units. The vast majority of units have no issues but not all vehicles are created equal and there are a few that straddle the limits of what the factory system deems acceptable. If you ultimately do experience an issue you will go through the typical troubleshooting/warranty path. That path may end with a replacement to a V2 or it may not depending on what the problem may be.

As far as stage 2 is concerned -- It remains to be seen what exact form stage 2 will take. Regardless of its form an upgrade path from V1 or V2 will be provided for.
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      11-18-2018, 08:36 AM   #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dinan_Engineering View Post
Apologize for the delayed response. Was on a week and a half long vacation and apparently no one bothered to check the social channels in my absence. =/

V2 is an evolution from V1 that irons out some reliability issues that occur in a minority population of V1 units. Power curve has been altered, and specifically, some torque values reduced to allow for a more reliable solution. Pricing has been reduced as a result to compensate for those differences as well.

As far as current V1 owners go there is nothing to worry about. There is nothing wrong with the V1 units. The vast majority of units have no issues but not all vehicles are created equal and there are a few that straddle the limits of what the factory system deems acceptable. If you ultimately do experience an issue you will go through the typical troubleshooting/warranty path. That path may end with a replacement to a V2 or it may not depending on what the problem may be.

As far as stage 2 is concerned -- It remains to be seen what exact form stage 2 will take. Regardless of its form an upgrade path from V1 or V2 will be provided for.
Dinan_Engineering ,
Thanks for checking in and providing details.
Please confirm or correct my understanding of your info:
Regardless of which version of the stage 1 piggyback a customer has and regardless of the format (piggyback or flash) of the stage 2 tune, the upgrade cost for stage 1 customers will be the price difference between the stage 1 and 2 tunes; as has always been Dinan's policy.
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      11-18-2018, 10:21 AM   #173
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Wonder if Dinan would care to share percentages of V1 units sold vs. those w/ reported issues?

W/ anything produced, manufacturers expect a small percent of product to have problems. Begs to question at what point (% of issues) does a manufacturer pull a product from the market and replace it?

As a Stage 1 (v1) owner, and having one CEL since owning, I'm wondering what my potential for a future issue is. I'm not a high mileage driver (about 3K miles a year), can I anticipate issues occurring when my car is out of warranty and each CEL is money out of pocket?

I plan to go to Stage 2 when available (I'm adding the Dinan intake next week), I'd feel much more comfortable knowing a bit more about the % or issues vs. # of v1 units sold.
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      11-18-2018, 04:33 PM   #174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterWT View Post
Dinan_Engineering ,
Thanks for checking in and providing details.
Please confirm or correct my understanding of your info:
Regardless of which version of the stage 1 piggyback a customer has and regardless of the format (piggyback or flash) of the stage 2 tune, the upgrade cost for stage 1 customers will be the price difference between the stage 1 and 2 tunes; as has always been Dinan's policy.
How the upgrade will ultimately work and its cost structure remains to be seen. All I can say is an upgrade path for all variants will be accounted for. If I had to guess -- the current methodology of the difference in pricing would make the most sense but this particular situation is a bit new so there may be a new nuance to it. I know I will fight to keep the status quo but it's not up to me either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by USA-RET View Post
Wonder if Dinan would care to share percentages of V1 units sold vs. those w/ reported issues?

W/ anything produced, manufacturers expect a small percent of product to have problems. Begs to question at what point (% of issues) does a manufacturer pull a product from the market and replace it?

As a Stage 1 (v1) owner, and having one CEL since owning, I'm wondering what my potential for a future issue is. I'm not a high mileage driver (about 3K miles a year), can I anticipate issues occurring when my car is out of warranty and each CEL is money out of pocket?

I plan to go to Stage 2 when available (I'm adding the Dinan intake next week), I'd feel much more comfortable knowing a bit more about the % or issues vs. # of v1 units sold.
Only the warranty folks and the upper management would be able to answer that. Not something I am privy to. I also wouldn't expect to ever be given that information or to it to get to the public sphere to be honest. I can speculate though... a ~2% variance is somewhat expected with external ECU's (piggybacks) from what I can gather from observation. As stated before, not all cars are created equal so there will always be a few problematic vehicles that cross the line. On a cursory look we have sold roughly ~4k V1's which using the above variance would mean ~80 vehicles that are truly problems (wouldn't count those cars that have a CEL once in a great while that clears itself --- typically a "check" related fault at shutdown or startup w/ no DTMAL). This would be cars that have consistent problems from the get go.

As far as your car goes... If you don't have consistent/repetitive issues I wouldn't worry about it. The problem children know it right away.
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      11-19-2018, 07:10 AM   #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dinan_Engineering View Post
How the upgrade will ultimately work and its cost structure remains to be seen. All I can say is an upgrade path for all variants will be accounted for. If I had to guess -- the current methodology of the difference in pricing would make the most sense but this particular situation is a bit new so there may be a new nuance to it. I know I will fight to keep the status quo but it's not up to me either...
So, it's TBD, but likely similar to previous tunes.
Thanks for the clarification.
My 3rd v1 ECU/Harness has been error free for a while now, so I'm happy for the time being. Let's hope it stays that way... at least until the stage 2 solution and upgrade path is available.
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      11-19-2018, 09:10 AM   #176
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Same here - never had problems - then in June had a CEL which recurred - replaced the harness and it's been fine. Over 26,000 miles with the Stage 1. I am very satisified with the performance and the customer support Dinan provided.
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