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      03-18-2023, 06:26 PM   #1673
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Yep, $0.45kWh is the Eversource rate (generation+delivery). Generation can be switched to a cheaper supplier, but I still pay about $150 for electricity delivery charges regardless of generation rates. This really sounds like a scam but it's a reality, unfortunately. Plus we don't have time-of-use rates, so we pay a fixed rate regardless time of the day.

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Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps View Post
$0.45kwh!!!!!!????? Even super chargers around here charge like $0.25kwh and feel like a scam to me. FPL has been raising its rates recently and pissing everyone off... still I think the highest I pay is $0.09kwh. So at most it costs me $6.75 to fully charge my model 3 long range.

However outside of some rare use cases I can't see how buying most any EV would save you more money than just buying a used economy car.
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      03-18-2023, 08:01 PM   #1674
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Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps View Post
$0.45kwh!!!!!!????? Even super chargers around here charge like $0.25kwh and feel like a scam to me. FPL has been raising its rates recently and pissing everyone off... still I think the highest I pay is $0.09kwh. So at most it costs me $6.75 to fully charge my model 3 long range.

However outside of some rare use cases I can't see how buying most any EV would save you more money than just buying a used economy car.
Just paid 8 bucks the last time I visited a supercharger. IIRC I was at 30%. Charged to 80. 8 bucks. Not bad.

That would be equivalent to about 45-50 bucks for a gas car.

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      03-19-2023, 07:40 AM   #1675
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Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps View Post
$0.45kwh!!!!!!????? Even super chargers around here charge like $0.25kwh and feel like a scam to me. FPL has been raising its rates recently and pissing everyone off... still I think the highest I pay is $0.09kwh. So at most it costs me $6.75 to fully charge my model 3 long range.

However outside of some rare use cases I can't see how buying most any EV would save you more money than just buying a used economy car.
Looking at my latest electric bill right now. Generation, transmission, distribution and access charges, plus taxes, all in, I pay 15 cents per kWh.

Gasoline is 10 cents per kWh in my neck of the woods...
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      03-19-2023, 08:42 AM   #1676
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Looking at my latest electric bill right now. Generation, transmission, distribution and access charges, plus taxes, all in, I pay 15 cents per kWh.

Gasoline is 10 cents per kWh in my neck of the woods...
An older ice that's stopped depreciation is likely much more cost efficient than a new ev. Where i live standard electricity rate is £.43 per kwh.
Driving the way i do To get 600 miles I'll pay £117 for ev and £139 for my diesel x5. Tbh its not worth the hassle and the ev needs charged thrice.
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      03-19-2023, 08:53 AM   #1677
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Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps View Post
$0.45kwh!!!!!!????? Even super chargers around here charge like $0.25kwh and feel like a scam to me. FPL has been raising its rates recently and pissing everyone off... still I think the highest I pay is $0.09kwh. So at most it costs me $6.75 to fully charge my model 3 long range.

However outside of some rare use cases I can't see how buying most any EV would save you more money than just buying a used economy car.
So Interesting.

I ran the ICE vs. EV numbers between the Bolt and the Nissan Versa using Sedoy's MSRP for the Nissan (I didn't validate his number) and Chevy's MSRP for the bolt.

I do the calculations to 100,000 miles. I include $2,800 for ICE driveline and brake maintenance and assume all other maintenance costs are equal between ICE and EV (basically tires and repairs). I have EV maintenance to 100,000 miles at $0 since there is no combustion process to maintain (doesn't include a potential house fire and death to the occupants...). Fuel costs are 15 cents per kWh and $3.39 regular gas price (my local fuel costs). This time I added an estimated purchase price for an "out-the-door" price for both cars. My estimate is a 15% add based on my 2022 purchase of my Bronco, so both cars MSRP times 1.15. And of course subtracting the Fed Tax credit of (-$7,500) for the Bolt. The 115% estimated purchase price (above MSRP) includes the cost of a 5-year loan, dealer fees, taxes and registration costs (which vary by sate and purchase methodology).

The financial theory here is the price delta between the ICE and EV is the battery cost, which is usually thousands of dollars more for the EV; for example between an Accord and Model 3 its around $8,500, which I turn into "free ICE miles" after subtracting the ICE maintenance costs. Meaning the extra cost for the battery gives the ICE car an amount of free miles.

Doing the calcs for the Bolt vs. Versa and adding in the estimated purchase price (i.e. 115% of MSRP). The Bolt actually loses to 100,000 miles by $958.
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      03-19-2023, 09:31 AM   #1678
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
So Interesting.

I ran the ICE vs. EV numbers between the Bolt and the Nissan Versa using Sedoy's MSRP for the Nissan (I didn't validate his number) and Chevy's MSRP for the bolt.

I do the calculations to 100,000 miles. I include $2,800 for ICE driveline and brake maintenance and assume all other maintenance costs are equal between ICE and EV (basically tires and repairs). I have EV maintenance to 100,000 miles at $0 since there is no combustion process to maintain (doesn't include a potential house fire and death to the occupants...). Fuel costs are 15 cents per kWh and $3.39 regular gas price (my local fuel costs). This time I added an estimated purchase price for an "out-the-door" price for both cars. My estimate is a 15% add based on my 2022 purchase of my Bronco, so both cars MSRP times 1.15. And of course subtracting the Fed Tax credit of (-$7,500) for the Bolt. The 115% estimated purchase price (above MSRP) includes the cost of a 5-year loan, dealer fees, taxes and registration costs (which vary by sate and purchase methodology).

The financial theory here is the price delta between the ICE and EV is the battery cost, which is usually thousands of dollars more for the EV; for example between an Accord and Model 3 its around $8,500, which I turn into "free ICE miles" after subtracting the ICE maintenance costs. Meaning the extra cost for the battery gives the ICE car an amount of free miles.

Doing the calcs for the Bolt vs. Versa and adding in the estimated purchase price (i.e. 115% of MSRP). The Bolt actually loses to 100,000 miles by $958.
Good for you running these numbers, I'd never get that down into the weeds but it is useful. I recall not long ago reading an article or watching a video on this topic and if I recall correctly you'd need to drive an EV well beyond 100,000 miles to past the break even point. I suspect most people won't keep them that long though.
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      03-19-2023, 10:21 AM   #1679
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Don't forget to include battery degradation about total of 10%-12% at 100K.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
So Interesting.

I ran the ICE vs. EV numbers between the Bolt and the Nissan Versa using Sedoy's MSRP for the Nissan (I didn't validate his number) and Chevy's MSRP for the bolt.

I do the calculations to 100,000 miles. I include $2,800 for ICE driveline and brake maintenance and assume all other maintenance costs are equal between ICE and EV (basically tires and repairs). I have EV maintenance to 100,000 miles at $0 since there is no combustion process to maintain (doesn't include a potential house fire and death to the occupants...). Fuel costs are 15 cents per kWh and $3.39 regular gas price (my local fuel costs). This time I added an estimated purchase price for an "out-the-door" price for both cars. My estimate is a 15% add based on my 2022 purchase of my Bronco, so both cars MSRP times 1.15. And of course subtracting the Fed Tax credit of (-$7,500) for the Bolt. The 115% estimated purchase price (above MSRP) includes the cost of a 5-year loan, dealer fees, taxes and registration costs (which vary by sate and purchase methodology).

The financial theory here is the price delta between the ICE and EV is the battery cost, which is usually thousands of dollars more for the EV; for example between an Accord and Model 3 its around $8,500, which I turn into "free ICE miles" after subtracting the ICE maintenance costs. Meaning the extra cost for the battery gives the ICE car an amount of free miles.

Doing the calcs for the Bolt vs. Versa and adding in the estimated purchase price (i.e. 115% of MSRP). The Bolt actually loses to 100,000 miles by $958.
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      03-19-2023, 10:22 AM   #1680
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
So Interesting.

I ran the ICE vs. EV numbers between the Bolt and the Nissan Versa using Sedoy's MSRP for the Nissan (I didn't validate his number) and Chevy's MSRP for the bolt.

I do the calculations to 100,000 miles. I include $2,800 for ICE driveline and brake maintenance and assume all other maintenance costs are equal between ICE and EV (basically tires and repairs). I have EV maintenance to 100,000 miles at $0 since there is no combustion process to maintain (doesn't include a potential house fire and death to the occupants...). Fuel costs are 15 cents per kWh and $3.39 regular gas price (my local fuel costs). This time I added an estimated purchase price for an "out-the-door" price for both cars. My estimate is a 15% add based on my 2022 purchase of my Bronco, so both cars MSRP times 1.15. And of course subtracting the Fed Tax credit of (-$7,500) for the Bolt. The 115% estimated purchase price (above MSRP) includes the cost of a 5-year loan, dealer fees, taxes and registration costs (which vary by sate and purchase methodology).

The financial theory here is the price delta between the ICE and EV is the battery cost, which is usually thousands of dollars more for the EV; for example between an Accord and Model 3 its around $8,500, which I turn into "free ICE miles" after subtracting the ICE maintenance costs. Meaning the extra cost for the battery gives the ICE car an amount of free miles.

Doing the calcs for the Bolt vs. Versa and adding in the estimated purchase price (i.e. 115% of MSRP). The Bolt actually loses to 100,000 miles by $958.
Again didn't buy an EV for the cost savings the same way I don't buy my ICE vehicles because of their MPG. If I was looking to save the most amount of money then I would just buy a used Corolla and drive it till the wheels fall off as they say. Too lazy to do that kind of math.

HOWEVER assuming all else was equal and I liked both cars equally... I would totally pay the extra $958 to never have to go to a gas station or deal with oil changes, brakes etc.
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      03-19-2023, 11:46 AM   #1681
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My biggest problem with EVs is the battery/drivetrain replacement outside of the warranty period. There are just not enough specialists (outside of official service) in most areas to correctly perform diagnostics and replacement, plus some parts are super expensive. Judging by Telsa forums older Model S with over 100K are definitely a ticking bomb, some battery pack versions are better than the over ones, but $20K battery replacement is not something very uncommon. So I'm OK with oil changes and brakes at least for now...

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Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps View Post
Again didn't buy an EV for the cost savings the same way I don't buy my ICE vehicles because of their MPG. If I was looking to save the most amount of money then I would just buy a used Corolla and drive it till the wheels fall off as they say. Too lazy to do that kind of math.

HOWEVER assuming all else was equal and I liked both cars equally... I would totally pay the extra $958 to never have to go to a gas station or deal with oil changes, brakes etc.
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      03-19-2023, 02:21 PM   #1682
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Most people donít want to own any car outside the warranty period, BEV or otherwise. Donít think that is a big concern for most.
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      03-19-2023, 02:30 PM   #1683
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Most people donít want to own any car outside the warranty period, BEV or otherwise. Donít think that is a big concern for most.
Accept I think most people who buy cars aren't buying new, they buy used. Who wants to buy a used EV with the ticking time bomb of a battery replacement. I don't know if there is much of a market for used EV's yet as they are a relatively new commodity but I suspect the market isn't great and is likely to get worse as more are traded in. Maybe I'm off the mark.
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      03-19-2023, 04:23 PM   #1684
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murf the Surf View Post
Good for you running these numbers, I'd never get that down into the weeds but it is useful. I recall not long ago reading an article or watching a video on this topic and if I recall correctly you'd need to drive an EV well beyond 100,000 miles to past the break even point. I suspect most people won't keep them that long though.
Yup, 100,000 miles is where the payback is (cost delta is under $1,000) based on the few scenarios I've run today.
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      03-19-2023, 04:35 PM   #1685
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedoy View Post
My biggest problem with EVs is the battery/drivetrain replacement outside of the warranty period. There are just not enough specialists (outside of official service) in most areas to correctly perform diagnostics and replacement, plus some parts are super expensive. Judging by Telsa forums older Model S with over 100K are definitely a ticking bomb, some battery pack versions are better than the over ones, but $20K battery replacement is not something very uncommon. So I'm OK with oil changes and brakes at least for now...
Maybe, no idea as I've never owned a car with 100k miles. The Tesla battery and drive unit warranty is 8 years 120k miles. That's longer than any car I've ever owned. Now if I was in the market for 10 year old cars with 100k miles... I guess I would have to take that into consideration.

As for oil changes and brakes, I'm talking about the time and hassle factor. Not the money.
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      03-19-2023, 04:37 PM   #1686
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps View Post
Again didn't buy an EV for the cost savings the same way I don't buy my ICE vehicles because of their MPG. If I was looking to save the most amount of money then I would just buy a used Corolla and drive it till the wheels fall off as they say. Too lazy to do that kind of math.

HOWEVER assuming all else was equal and I liked both cars equally... I would totally pay the extra $958 to never have to go to a gas station or deal with oil changes, brakes etc.
Throwing in buying a used car instead to save more money is a false argument since I'm comparing new to new purchase. But most normal socio-economic people buying a new car do consider operating cost of gasoline as part of the purchase decision, so MPG does matter to them.

In mid 2022 when I bought my New Bronco, I compared it to the only EV equivalent SUV I'd consider, which was a Ford Mach E. In 2022 the Mach E was not eligible for the tax credit of $7,500, so at the 100,000 mile mark, the Bronco was $877 more than the Mach E. At just 50,000 miles the Bronco was ahead at $5,800 less than the Mach E. 50,000 miles is probably all I drive the Bronco before they take my keys away. The Bronco with a manual transmission is about as analog as you can get in 2022 for a vehicle built by a mainstream manufacturer, which is what I wanted.
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      03-19-2023, 04:45 PM   #1687
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Most people donít want to own any car outside the warranty period, BEV or otherwise. Donít think that is a big concern for most.
Exactly. Excuses out the balloon knot in this thread lmaoooooo
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      03-19-2023, 04:48 PM   #1688
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murf the Surf View Post
Accept I think most people who buy cars aren't buying new, they buy used. Who wants to buy a used EV with the ticking time bomb of a battery replacement. I don't know if there is much of a market for used EV's yet as they are a relatively new commodity but I suspect the market isn't great and is likely to get worse as more are traded in. Maybe I'm off the mark.
So, it is interesting. The new US EV tax credit law allows for a one-time tax rebate for a used EV, meaning a bought new EV can get a tax rebate and then the first time the car is sold used it can be eligible for a tax rebate. The law also possibly allows to apply the tax credit to the purchase price at time of sale, rather than waiting for the next April 15th to get the rebate. As far as I've researched no one has figured out how to roll the tax rebate up front into the purchase transaction. I'd expect it will be at the dealership level, so one can only imagine the shenanigans that will ensue with that process. LOL.

It's clear the tax rebate offsets the cost of manufacturing the EV battery.
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      03-19-2023, 04:50 PM   #1689
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Throwing in buying a used car instead to save more money is a false argument since I'm comparing new to new purchase. But most normal socio-economic people buying a new car do consider operating cost of gasoline as part of the purchase decision, so MPG does matter to them.

In mid 2022 when I bought my New Bronco, I compared it to the only EV equivalent SUV I'd consider, which was a Ford Mach E. In 2022 the Mach E was not eligible for the tax credit of $7,500, so at the 100,000 mile mark, the Bronco was $877 more than the Mach E. At just 50,000 miles the Bronco was ahead at $5,800 less than the Mach E. 50,000 miles is probably all I drive the Bronco before they take my keys away. The Bronco with a manual transmission is about as analog as you can get in 2022 for a vehicle built by a mainstream manufacturer, which is what I wanted.
I'm not arguing anything other than buying an EV to save money is probably a dumb idea in most cases. Honestly the only time I ever hear about people buying an EV to save money are people who already WANT an EV and are just trying to justify the purchase.

ME myself personally would buy a used corolla or similar if I wanted to save money. Again not comparing it to your math, just saying that's what I would do. If I wanted to save money and buy new I would still just buy the cheapest new Japanese car I could get and drive it as long as possible.
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      03-19-2023, 07:01 PM   #1690
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Most people don’t want to own any car outside the warranty period, BEV or otherwise. Don’t think that is a big concern for most.
this is a massive problem. 6/7 cars in my house have over 100k...3 over 200k.


typical money wasting idea. let me spend more money on something new so it doesn't break then spend little fixing LOL

Last edited by G35POPPEDMYCHERRY; 03-19-2023 at 07:21 PM..
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      03-19-2023, 08:23 PM   #1691
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More cheap barely used cars is good!
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      03-19-2023, 09:39 PM   #1692
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this is a massive problem. 6/7 cars in my house have over 100k...3 over 200k.


typical money wasting idea. let me spend more money on something new so it doesn't break then spend little fixing LOL
Most people don't have a lift and the full tools necessary to do the repairs to keep an older car viable as the miles start to rack up. Example, my Honda pilot was going through suspension bushings yearly...then there was the steering rack, shocks, those wear items start to add up big time. With a lift and tools, you can keep them running relatively easily....but without, after a point it gets to be fairly impractical. It's almost never going to be a good idea to buy a new car...as in a brand new car with new car markup, but people are going to do it to have something nice and new and if that's too much, dumping the old car for a nearly-new can often (depending on the times) can still be a lot less headaches.
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      03-19-2023, 09:59 PM   #1693
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Most people don't have a lift and the full tools necessary to do the repairs to keep an older car viable as the miles start to rack up. Example, my Honda pilot was going through suspension bushings yearly...then there was the steering rack, shocks, those wear items start to add up big time. With a lift and tools, you can keep them running relatively easily....but without, after a point it gets to be fairly impractical. It's almost never going to be a good idea to buy a new car...as in a brand new car with new car markup, but people are going to do it to have something nice and new and if that's too much, dumping the old car for a nearly-new can often (depending on the times) can still be a lot less headaches.
03 pilot 194 miles

only changed the oil every 4 months and the timing belt once. Im sure the suspension was shot but it still drives smooth.

edit: I do understand what you are saying, but lets be real here. people buy new things in the fear of them breaking down the road...the idea of money spent vs saved vs future cost is not very well connected.

also they just buy new things because the dealer scams them by giving them massive trade in, lowers their payments, puts them more underwater....but HEYYY I can't do math
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      03-20-2023, 07:56 AM   #1694
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Quote:
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this is a massive problem. 6/7 cars in my house have over 100k...3 over 200k.


typical money wasting idea. let me spend more money on something new so it doesn't break then spend little fixing LOL
I think a lot of people don't want to deal with the inconvenience of a car that consistently breaks. I had an E90 BMW at one point that always had something go wrong with it. I couldn't be happier when I got rid of it and had an always reliable ride. If it never breaks, then that's different but then a lot of people also don't want to be driving a 10 year old car as tech has changed so much.

And when you do have to repair it, do you have a trusted mechanic? Or are you going to the stealership?
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