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      05-28-2015, 08:12 AM   #1
ketema
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Suspension Problems

Looking for some community comments.

1) I track my car a lot: every month since December except this last 2 months because of the issues I am having.

I chose KW DDC coil overs and paired them with Ground control camber plates. I have had nothing but problems.

1st Front left plate seemed to disintegrate. GC replaced plate free of charge and I had shop redo work. Next front right strut literally snapped the tip in the GC top mount. Needed a new strut and plate hardware. now the repaired front left has snapped as well. The second install on the right I used a different shop to try and eliminate human install problems. I am now leaning towards some sort of hard ware incompatibility. I am torn as to whether or not I should try the same set up again or get new plates or just get the clubsport kit which comes with its own top plates. I originally got the DDC because I wanted to have better than stock handling and retain functionality of the adaptive suspension. However with the cost of labor I'd rather just get something that is going to stick. Thoughts?
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      05-28-2015, 04:49 PM   #2
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I am leaning towards hardware incompatibility just as you are; something like the load delivered by one thing is not the load the other thing is designed for, or even the mating surfaces not matching. I think that your idea of using the clubsport kit is sound unless you drive the heck out of the car then this events could be considered "normal wear" Good luck !!!
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      05-28-2015, 04:52 PM   #3
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I'd lean towards hardware incompatibility as well. I havent had a single problem (knock on wood) with my GC camber plates with stock struts and H&R Springs. Kind of a shame -- the KW DDC coil overs were looking kind of good to me.

I'm kind of in the same boat as you (in terms of tracking and performance). I'd consider doing a clubsport setup some day, but I want to retain the "adaptive" element of the suspension (why oh why can't they make a clubsport that is adaptive?!?!). I was hoping (some day) that someone would come out with electronically controlled struts (maybe Bilstein or Koni) that are compatible and just run those with plates and appropriate springs.

I think as adaptive suspensions become more commonplace, more companies will offer more solutions -- when it works right, it's a really great setup for a daily that does track duty. When it goes wrong, well...
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      05-28-2015, 07:07 PM   #4
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If you're tracking the car as much as you are, then I'd buy Clubsports. There should be no reason to retain the EDC if it's mainly a track car.

I'm also guessing that this is a hardware incompatibility issue, but like everyone else, its a guess.

Like you mentioned, the labor is getting costly if you continue to have this problem. I'd pony up and get a set of KW 2 way Clubsports.
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      05-28-2015, 07:08 PM   #5
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Pretty sure that's what I'm gonna do. Anyone want a used DdC Kit? In gonna replace the strut any way so it will be a complete set
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      06-03-2015, 02:33 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ketema View Post
Pretty sure that's what I'm gonna do. Anyone want a used DdC Kit? In gonna replace the strut any way so it will be a complete set
How much?
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      06-06-2015, 04:15 PM   #7
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I think this problem just happened to me on stock suspension with H&R springs. I'm taking it to the shop on Monday to diagnose. Hopefully if its the plate breaking they'll replace.
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      06-07-2015, 12:06 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquidpaper
I think this problem just happened to me on stock suspension with H&R springs. I'm taking it to the shop on Monday to diagnose. Hopefully if its the plate breaking they'll replace.
Interested in outcome.
I will start tracking mine a little more often and want to be sure it doest become a common problem for all those tracking.
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      06-07-2015, 04:24 AM   #9
ketema
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Ground control and KW have been very professional for me. GC has replaced all parts for free in my instances. Please post pics and trouble shooting thoughts as you talk to your shops.
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      06-07-2015, 10:08 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ketema View Post
Ground control and KW have been very professional for me. GC has replaced all parts for free in my instances. Please post pics and trouble shooting thoughts as you talk to your shops.
That's great news. I linked them to this thread in my email to them.
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      06-08-2015, 06:54 PM   #11
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Update:

Took my car in and, yes, you guessed it, the camber plate sheared off the top of the strut.

My mechanic and I determined that it has something to do with the polyurethane that GC is using in their bushing -- its too stiff. Basically you have your steel strut fighting the aircraft grade aluminum camber plate the whole time. Guess who wins? Spoke to GC and they are thinking the same thing. They sent a sample of the bushings back to Germany a few weeks ago.

In the mean time, GC has created a new spherical-bushing based camber plate for the F80 that they are sending to me to fix this as a replacement (for both plates). Also, they are buying me a new strut.

So, OP, to answer your original post: no, its not hardware incompatibility. Did you get the new camber plates like I'm getting? If not, you should ask for a replacement.
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      06-08-2015, 06:56 PM   #12
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Yep they are on the way. Although not sure if I will use them as yet.
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      06-16-2015, 07:45 AM   #13
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You're positive this isn't install error? What kind of shop installed it? Race shop? Local indy?
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      06-16-2015, 08:44 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris82
You're positive this isn't install error? What kind of shop installed it? Race shop? Local indy?
It's impossible to say human error is NOT a factor. I tried to address that after it happened the FIRST time to me by using a different shop. It happened again. Both shops for me were highly recommended.
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      06-16-2015, 07:39 PM   #15
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For what it's worth, I have over 2000 track miles on my Kmack camber plates, they have pillow bearings, and have had no issues with the added benefit of camber adjustment.

The force that caused the shock to shear on the bolt is Horizontal stress. The pillow or floating bearing should solve that, main reason I bought the Kmack ones to begin with. With the stock setup on lowered springs I could feel it binding on aggressive turn in on track. The failure vertical is probably the bushing.

I think for street they would be fine, but for liquid paper and Ketema who are at the track a lot, they just won't hold up. One things for sure GC will have to significantly redesign the plate for serious use.
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      06-16-2015, 07:41 PM   #16
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Completely agree.
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      06-16-2015, 08:27 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pparana View Post
For what it's worth, I have over 2000 track miles on my Kmack camber plates, they have pillow bearings, and have had no issues with the added benefit of camber adjustment.
Do you have pics of this setup? Turner sent me a set of KMAC plates, they don't fit (strut tower brace doesn't line up).
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      06-16-2015, 08:42 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwalker View Post
Do you have pics of this setup? Turner sent me a set of KMAC plates, they don't fit (strut tower brace doesn't line up).

Yeah I can take some tommorow , I had to drill the strut tower brace, the press rivets are slightly off, as you probably noticed. Also under no circumstances use the supplied bump stops, they are way way too soft for the stock suspension. I am using the stock shocks with lowering springs.
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      06-17-2015, 11:09 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pparana View Post
For what it's worth, I have over 2000 track miles on my Kmack camber plates, they have pillow bearings, and have had no issues with the added benefit of camber adjustment.

The force that caused the shock to shear on the bolt is Horizontal stress. The pillow or floating bearing should solve that, main reason I bought the Kmack ones to begin with. With the stock setup on lowered springs I could feel it binding on aggressive turn in on track. The failure vertical is probably the bushing.

I think for street they would be fine, but for liquid paper and Ketema who are at the track a lot, they just won't hold up. One things for sure GC will have to significantly redesign the plate for serious use.
Agreed. However, the new plates that GC is supplying to Ketema and me have spherical bearings/bushings, which should take care of this problem.
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      06-17-2015, 08:07 PM   #20
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It is not a shear or horizontal load. It's a bending load. In order to get more camber, the mount has to deflect more from straight vertical, (Or whatever angle is built into the strut towers). If you're trying to deflect a stiffer bushing, then you're going to be putting a huge bending load into the strut shaft.

A polyurethane bushing is a horrible idea for an adjustable camber plate. It's basic engineering, and seeing this failure is part of the reason I distrust so many aftermarket manufacturers.

If you want more camber than the factory gives you, you'll need a spherical bearing, and you'll get more NVH. No way around it.

Further, a camber plate with a urethane or stiff rubber bushing is NOT fine for the street: You may not have a catastrophic failure like this one, but you WILL wear out your struts much faster due to the increased side load on the seals and piston.
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      06-17-2015, 11:57 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer20 View Post
It is not a shear or horizontal load. It's a bending load. In order to get more camber, the mount has to deflect more from straight vertical, (Or whatever angle is built into the strut towers). If you're trying to deflect a stiffer bushing, then you're going to be putting a huge bending load into the strut shaft.

A polyurethane bushing is a horrible idea for an adjustable camber plate. It's basic engineering, and seeing this failure is part of the reason I distrust so many aftermarket manufacturers.

If you want more camber than the factory gives you, you'll need a spherical bearing, and you'll get more NVH. No way around it.

Further, a camber plate with a urethane or stiff rubber bushing is NOT fine for the street: You may not have a catastrophic failure like this one, but you WILL wear out your struts much faster due to the increased side load on the seals and piston.
Fair enough, but until BMW decides to make their own camber plates, we really don't have a whole lot of options. This car needs camber in order to track properly.
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      06-18-2015, 09:09 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer20 View Post
It is not a shear or horizontal load. It's a bending load. In order to get more camber, the mount has to deflect more from straight vertical, (Or whatever angle is built into the strut towers). If you're trying to deflect a stiffer bushing, then you're going to be putting a huge bending load into the strut shaft.

A polyurethane bushing is a horrible idea for an adjustable camber plate. It's basic engineering, and seeing this failure is part of the reason I distrust so many aftermarket manufacturers.

If you want more camber than the factory gives you, you'll need a spherical bearing, and you'll get more NVH. No way around it.

Further, a camber plate with a urethane or stiff rubber bushing is NOT fine for the street: You may not have a catastrophic failure like this one, but you WILL wear out your struts much faster due to the increased side load on the seals and piston.
Had to do some research but I understand what you are saying now and I can see the problem with the OP's camber plates by looking at the pictures. I don't konw of anyone running into a problem like this on the E9x/E8x chassis regardless of the camber plate model so I am shocked to hear about this.


My advice to OP would be to buy the race plates which have the spherical bearing. I wouldn't worry about the NVH people claim they add because from my experience, they are silent. You will hear a slight increase in general road noise, but no clanks/rattles/squeaks. They get a bad rep because they're installed improperly. If they're professionally installed you will not get those noises.

And to rectify the previous comment I made, I do not think you're issues are install related, this was definitely the result of a design fault.
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