[K8_M235i]

Hi All,

Since getting into a f8x seems to be a common progression from f2x I figured I would do a direct comparison since I have one of each. I’m only going to focus on driving characteristics and “feeling” since things like looks and value are completely subjective.

Quick specs on both cars:
2016 M235i, 6spd manual, factory lsd, slicktop
2015 M3, DCT, carbon roof, non comp, but adaptive suspension

I’ve had my m235 for about 3 years and put on about 55k miles. I picked up the f80 about 3 months ago and have put 3,000 miles on it.

-Around town driving:
My commute to work is about 6 miles of mixed stoplight to stoplight and, single lane, 35mph roads. Both cars make it possible to have fun while driving the speed limit.

A lot of people like to complain about the dct’s "clunkiness”, but I think that is one of the main things that makes it very fun while commuting (for me at least). The dct isn’t trying to pretend that is a buttery smooth automatic, it feels and acts like a manual transmission at slow speeds. With this being said, it doesn’t give the same level of satisfaction that a manual transmission does. If the f80 was my only car it would have to be manual, but since it’s shared with my girlfriend it had to be dct.

If you are coming from a zf8 and are expecting the dct to feel like the zf, but faster, you will be disappointed. It shifts very quickly, but it isn’t as "perfect” feeling as a zf8. For example if you are trying to parallel park on a tight city street, you won’t be able to lightly ride the brake in reverse as you can with a zf8. With the dct you need to give it light blips to engage the clutch slightly from a standstill. This can make for a very jerky parallel parking experience, especially on a hill.

If you are coming from a manual, and are a manual person, I don’t think the dct will satisfy your 3rd pedal needs. Bmw makes dct able to be enjoyed by manual lovers with things like the shift knob and reverse that is still to the left and up, but it wouldn’t satisfy me if it were my only car.

-Fun driving/steering and suspension:
Stock vs stock the f80 definitely wins. It’s funny how bmw markets m235/m240s as "m” cars, but then dulls them down so non sports car people can enjoy them. The factory alignment is terrible, the front 7.5” wheel is tiny and the steering is very dull. These are all relatively easy to overcome and you end up with a car that feels just like an f80 in stock form.
My m235 has camber plates, dinan springs, and turner thrust arm monoballs. With these mods, good tires, and an alignment with camber, it feels a million times better.

The adaptative suspension in the f80 feels great, and it feels adequately dampened. My m235 with dinan springs is a little bit on the bouncy side.
I tend to always drive dsc off in both cars. MDM is much better with what it allows compared to "traction” in the m235, but MDM is still a bit too intrusive for me.
The m235 definitely takes more momentum and finesse to promote oversteer compared to the f80. The f80 will break traction and power slide with just a little brush on the throttle because of the powerband. Full torque at 1800 rpm is ridiculous and it definitely takes way more of my own "traction control” to drive wot without dsc. The f80 is very "quick”, and the way the power comes on makes it feel every quicker than it actually is. The m235 is "quick” too, but the powerband definitely doesn’t give you the same kick into the seat.

-Interior feel/ seating position:
The f80 definitely wins this battle in every way. The f80 seats feel great and can get way lower than the m235 seats which make the driving position much better. There are also a bunch of other touches throughout the interior that make the car feel more special, one of the main ones being the gauge cluster. The gauge cluster in the f80 is very cool and I will most likely try to get an m2 gauge cluster in my m235 for this reason.

Feel free to ask any specific questions. I tried to focus on things journalists wouldn’t focus on as far as day to day livability/ entertainment.

Later this month I am going on a Road Trip with my girlfriend. We are going to drive the Tail of the Dragon and the Blue Ridge Parkway. We are taking the f80

[XutvJet]

Thanks for the comparison write-up.

Does your M235 have any power modifications?

There's definitely no getting around the improvements of the F8X chassis, especially the suspension and the S55. The one thing that holds me back from the F8X cars is that S55 crank hub. I can afford pinning the crank hub and/or an out of warranty $10K repair, but it just seems ludicrous that something so catastrophic could and done happen, even on stock S55s. The leaking intercooler/heat exchanger into the motor is also spooky to me.

I've been wavering on getting an OG M22 (N55) for quite some time, but I always hesitate because of just how good I've made my M235 for its intended use: Street driving and occasional backroad blasting. My M235 is like yours, 6MT slick top with MP LSD. I also love the looks of Mineral White with the wheels I choose and the other mild exterior improvements. The looks of this car is so dependent on the exterior color and wheel choice.

Running a 245/35R18 square tire setup (MP4S tires), Dinan springs in the rear only (and lift spacers), and that LSD have a made monumental difference in traction on both axles. Having all that extra meat up front makes all the difference and it is so apparent that BMW neutered the M235 to keep it off the heals of the M2/M3/M4 by running narrow 225 front tires and no LSD. I don't have any other mods to the front axle.

Power wise, I have the Dinan Stage II piggyback, HJS Euro 6 catted DP, Wagner EVO Comp I intercooler, M2 lower airbox, and FTP CP. These mods put my car in the ~370-380whp/390-400wtq range. Power to weight wise, it's fractionally below that of the F8X cars; 9:1 lb per hp vs 8.4:1 lb per hp. For a street car, it's pretty dang fast, especially above 50mph when it finds it's traction.

What I dislike most about my M235 is the suspension dynamics. The car sticks, but like you said, it can be bouncy, especially in the rear. I think the variable dampers are to blame and I'd much prefer a passive system so that I could run quality coilovers without having to code things. I plan on getting a set of Bilstein B6 Damptronic dampers for the rear (possibly the front too).

The biggest advantage I see to the F8X cars is the suspension and the looks of course. Power is real easy to fix regardless of the motor. If I had an F8X, I would be worried that any non-power mods I make would might make it worse. The M235 needed a bit of help and most everything I've done is an improvement over stock. What I really like is that most of my power mods can carry over to the OG M2.

[K8_M235i]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Thanks for the comparison write-up.

Does your M235 have any power modifications?

There's definitely no getting around the improvements of the F8X chassis, especially the suspension and the S55. The one thing that holds me back from the F8X cars is that S55 crank hub. I can afford pinning the crank hub and/or an out of warranty $10K repair, but it just seems ludicrous that something so catastrophic could and done happen, even on stock S55s. The leaking intercooler/heat exchanger into the motor is also spooky to me.

I've been wavering on getting an OG M22 (N55) for quite some time, but I always hesitate because of just how good I've made my M235 for its intended use: Street driving and occasional backroad blasting. My M235 is like yours, 6MT slick top with MP LSD. I also love the looks of Mineral White with the wheels I choose and the other mild exterior improvements. The looks of this car is so dependent on the exterior color and wheel choice.

Running a 245/35R18 square tire setup (MP4S tires), Dinan springs in the rear only (and lift spacers), and that LSD have a made monumental difference in traction on both axles. Having all that extra meat up front makes all the difference and it is so apparent that BMW neutered the M235 to keep it off the heals of the M2/M3/M4 by running narrow 225 front tires and no LSD. I don't have any other mods to the front axle.

Power wise, I have the Dinan Stage II piggyback, HJS Euro 6 catted DP, Wagner EVO Comp I intercooler, M2 lower airbox, and FTP CP. These mods put my car in the ~370-380whp/390-400wtq range. Power to weight wise, it's fractionally below that of the F8X cars; 9:1 lb per hp vs 8.4:1 lb per hp. For a street car, it's pretty dang fast, especially above 50mph when it finds it's traction.

What I dislike most about my M235 is the suspension dynamics. The car sticks, but like you said, it can be bouncy, especially in the rear. I think the variable dampers are to blame and I'd much prefer a passive system so that I could run quality coilovers without having to code things. I plan on getting a set of Bilstein B6 Damptronic dampers for the rear (possibly the front too).

The biggest advantage I see to the F8X cars is the suspension and the looks of course. Power is real easy to fix regardless of the motor. If I had an F8X, I would be worried that any non-power mods I make would might make it worse. The M235 needed a bit of help and most everything I've done is an improvement over stock. What I really like is that most of my power mods can carry over to the OG M2.

At the time that I wrote this I didn't have a a tune, but I had an intercooler and a catted downpipe. I now have custom tune from Epic Motorsports and it's making about 14 psi to redline. I felt the need to tune the car after getting the f80 haha.

We are in a very similar situation car wise. Eventually I will get a set of tc Kline coils for the m235 and I have a feeling it will make a huge difference. I run 245 square with camber and it feels like a completely different car compared to stock.

I have thought about getting an OG m2, but I've never been able to justify the jump with my m235 and the f80. I also really like my m235 because of the "rareness" as lame as that sounds. Whoever spec'd my car deserves a hug. 6spd, No Tech (not even a back up camera), slick top, LSD, and some mperf aesthetics.

[spidy512]

heya,

Thanks for posting this! As I said in PM I think some will benefit from the discussion.

Since we chatted yesterday I am now back looking at e9x M3's. HAHA. I am still keeping an eye out for a good deal on an f80/f87 as well. The deal you got is incredible, and reminds me to be patient and that good cars and good deals exist.

I am still not sure in the end what I will do though. I am only about $5k short in mods to get this M240 up to where I want it. But again, for that kind of money I am almost in the wheel house of an M2 or high mileage M3 (wow, first world problems much?).

Anyway, great info, and I hope this spurs more discussion.

josh

[RugbyBro]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Thanks for the comparison write-up.

Does your M235 have any power modifications?

There's definitely no getting around the improvements of the F8X chassis, especially the suspension and the S55. The one thing that holds me back from the F8X cars is that S55 crank hub. I can afford pinning the crank hub and/or an out of warranty $10K repair, but it just seems ludicrous that something so catastrophic could and done happen, even on stock S55s. The leaking intercooler/heat exchanger into the motor is also spooky to me.

I've been wavering on getting an OG M22 (N55) for quite some time, but I always hesitate because of just how good I've made my M235 for its intended use: Street driving and occasional backroad blasting. My M235 is like yours, 6MT slick top with MP LSD. I also love the looks of Mineral White with the wheels I choose and the other mild exterior improvements. The looks of this car is so dependent on the exterior color and wheel choice.

Running a 245/35R18 square tire setup (MP4S tires), Dinan springs in the rear only (and lift spacers), and that LSD have a made monumental difference in traction on both axles. Having all that extra meat up front makes all the difference and it is so apparent that BMW neutered the M235 to keep it off the heals of the M2/M3/M4 by running narrow 225 front tires and no LSD. I don't have any other mods to the front axle.

Power wise, I have the Dinan Stage II piggyback, HJS Euro 6 catted DP, Wagner EVO Comp I intercooler, M2 lower airbox, and FTP CP. These mods put my car in the ~370-380whp/390-400wtq range. Power to weight wise, it's fractionally below that of the F8X cars; 9:1 lb per hp vs 8.4:1 lb per hp. For a street car, it's pretty dang fast, especially above 50mph when it finds it's traction.

What I dislike most about my M235 is the suspension dynamics. The car sticks, but like you said, it can be bouncy, especially in the rear. I think the variable dampers are to blame and I'd much prefer a passive system so that I could run quality coilovers without having to code things. I plan on getting a set of Bilstein B6 Damptronic dampers for the rear (possibly the front too).

The biggest advantage I see to the F8X cars is the suspension and the looks of course. Power is real easy to fix regardless of the motor. If I had an F8X, I would be worried that any non-power mods I make would might make it worse. The M235 needed a bit of help and most everything I've done is an improvement over stock. What I really like is that most of my power mods can carry over to the OG M2.

Don't know how I ended up here (well I do... looking to see if an M235i I see all the time is on these boards). But 2 things I will say:

1. Crankhub is not an issue. It's literally the same part on N55 and if you're worried about it for light tunes (stage 1) or longevity you can slap a CBC on ($100 + DIY for free). If you want to push power over stock levels (stock includes GTS), then yes you should upgrade the hub among other things as you're pushing the engine beyond what its intended to do.

2. Suspension on F80/2/3/7 is better than base cars, but it is far from perfect. The damping leaves a lot to be desired if you are carrying speed over rough roads - this is one of the major items that G8X has addressed in stock form. Many aftermarket damping options that will thoroughly improve the ride & suspension dynamics (both EDC and non-EDC).

If you're storming canyons and dailying the car, I can't really think of a better compromise between the two than the M235i. F8X wants to be a track leaning car and reminds you of it every time you get in it. I like that, seems like OP does as well, but I know many that don't.

[K8_M235i]

Originally Posted by RugbyBro

Don't know how I ended up here (well I do... looking to see if an M235i I see all the time is on these boards). But 2 things I will say:

1. Crankhub is not an issue. It's literally the same part on N55 and if you're worried about it for light tunes (stage 1) or longevity you can slap a CBC on ($100 + DIY for free). If you want to push power over stock levels (stock includes GTS), then yes you should upgrade the hub among other things as you're pushing the engine beyond what its intended to do.

2. Suspension on F80/2/3/7 is better than base cars, but it is far from perfect. The damping leaves a lot to be desired if you are carrying speed over rough roads - this is one of the major items that G8X has addressed in stock form. Many aftermarket damping options that will thoroughly improve the ride & suspension dynamics (both EDC and non-EDC).

If you're storming canyons and dailying the car, I can't really think of a better compromise between the two than the M235i. F8X wants to be a track leaning car and reminds you of it every time you get in it. I like that, seems like OP does as well, but I know many that don't.

I agree with all your points.

I think the best way to describe the f80 in one word is "dramatic" when compared to the m235.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by RugbyBro

1. Crankhub is not an issue. It's literally the same part on N55 and if you're worried about it for light tunes (stage 1) or longevity you can slap a CBC on ($100 + DIY for free). If you want to push power over stock levels (stock includes GTS), then yes you should upgrade the hub among other things as you're pushing the engine beyond what its intended to do.

I would disagree with this. While the S55 and N55 (and N54) use the same crank hub design, the S55 is also running a quite a bit accessories directly off the crank compared to the N55. The S55 is also pushing 420+whp stock compared to the 300-310whp of the M235's N55 in stock form. I can't ever recall a single reported instance of a spun crank hub on this forum in the past 5+ years, but the S55 M2/3/4 forums tell a completely different story. There have been a number of spun crank hubs on 2015-2020 S55s over the years in both stock and modded S55s. Is it common? No, but it does happen. This thread doesn't lie: https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1560274

If your crank hub spins, you could be looking at a 5 figure repair, some people being quoted $25K for a motor replacement from BMW because they are either out of warranty or were running power enhancing modifications.

BMW knew this is a problem in their higher powered turbo motors hence the reason why the B58 and S58 don't run the same crank hub design.

[RugbyBro]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

I would disagree with this. While the S55 and N55 (and N54) use the same crank hub design, the S55 is also running a quite a bit accessories directly off the crank compared to the N55. The S55 is also pushing 420+whp stock compared to the 300-310whp of the M235's N55 in stock form. I can't ever recall a single reported instance of a spun crank hub on this forum in the past 5+ years, but the S55 M2/3/4 forums tell a completely different story. There have been a number of spun crank hubs on 2015-2020 S55s over the years in both stock and modded S55s. Is it common? No, but it does happen. This thread doesn't lie: https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1560274

If your crank hub spins, you could be looking at a 5 figure repair, some people being quoted $25K for a motor replacement from BMW because they are either out of warranty or were running power enhancing modifications.

BMW knew this is a problem in their higher powered turbo motors hence the reason why the B58 and S58 don't run the same crank hub design.

It isn’t common at all and if you’re running torque levels that the engine is designed for on a stock hub and you somehow happen to slip, the most likely outcome is a minor slip, car in limp mode, and you just have to get the motor re-timed. A very far cry from a 5 figure repair. If you want to get into specifics as to why it spins to begin with, unless you are tuning the engine to put down way more torque than it is designed for, the reason a hub will spin is the crank bolt loses torque from whatever combination of events (DCT shifts, kick downs, bolt not torqued properly from factory, because the tooth fairy made it happen, etc.) and the lateral force of the hub on the friction washer is compromised... this is fixed with a CBC, which physically prevents the bolt from losing torque. Again there’s no basis to suggest this is even a remotely common problem on stock cars - and the F80 forum is not littered with verifiable stock spins. The vast majority of spins you’re reading about are on heavily tuned/modified vehicles, which again many can’t be verified. You just said that you’re afraid of SCH, and I’m just telling you it’s really uncommon and you shouldn’t worry about it. And I don’t believe for one second that BMW does not think the stock hub design is adequate for the intended power levels. They literally use the stock hub on the GT4 race cars and absolutely nobody on any forum drives their car harder than those. I’m not saying aftermarket hubs don’t have a place, I’m just saying that the fear of SCH on a typical street car is way overblown.

Also that thread you posted is very far from being reliable. But even if you take it as accurate data, it’s almost all comprised of tuned vehicles.

[RugbyBro]

Originally Posted by K8_M235i

I agree with all your points.

I think the best way to describe the f80 in one word is "dramatic" when compared to the m235.

You got it good with your garage! On a lot of tight and relatively low speed canyons, honestly the M235i can easily be considered more fun. Having a car that is too competent often leaves a bit to be desired.

Agreed with your characterization of “dramatic”. Had a 435 prior and it is a night/day difference in a lot of ways. Much more in your face and less relaxed - but that’s part of the charm

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by RugbyBro

It isn’t common at all and if you’re running torque levels that the engine is designed for on a stock hub and you somehow happen to slip, the most likely outcome is a minor slip, car in limp mode, and you just have to get the motor re-timed. A very far cry from a 5 figure repair. If you want to get into specifics as to why it spins to begin with, unless you are tuning the engine to put down way more torque than it is designed for, the reason a hub will spin is the crank bolt loses torque from whatever combination of events (DCT shifts, kick downs, bolt not torqued properly from factory, because the tooth fairy made it happen, etc.) and the lateral force of the hub on the friction washer is compromised... this is fixed with a CBC, which physically prevents the bolt from losing torque. Again there’s no basis to suggest this is even a remotely common problem on stock cars - and the F80 forum is not littered with verifiable stock spins. The vast majority of spins you’re reading about are on heavily tuned/modified vehicles, which again many can’t be verified. You just said that you’re afraid of SCH, and I’m just telling you it’s really uncommon and you shouldn’t worry about it. And I don’t believe for one second that BMW does not think the stock hub design is adequate for the intended power levels. They literally use the stock hub on the GT4 race cars and absolutely nobody on any forum drives their car harder than those. I’m not saying aftermarket hubs don’t have a place, I’m just saying that the fear of SCH on a typical street car is way overblown.

Also that thread you posted is very far from being reliable. But even if you take it as accurate data, it’s almost all comprised of tuned vehicles.

There are over 30 reported instances in that thread I linked of stock DCT and 6MT cars spinning the crank hub. While that number is much smaller than the hundreds of reported failures in modified S55s, the number of failures in stock S55s is undoubtedly much larger as people that drive stock S55 cars tend not to be on the forums.

I do not think this is a widespread issue in stock cars, but the out of warranty cost to fix the issue can be high (replacement the friction disk, re-time the motor) to extremely high (short block replacement). For me personally, it's not worth the risk after all the reading I've done over the years and the shops and techs I've spoken with that work on S55s.

Yes, you can do the crank bolt capture on the cheap or pin the hub for $3K, but even then, you're walking on egg shells and your warranty will go out the window once BMW sees those modifications. Since these are parts not built to OEM standards, much less are a part that BMW offers, the Magnusson Moss Act offers you no protection.

[silver_mcoupe]

I went the other way (2017 F80 Competition w DCT to 2020 M240 6MT).

The lack of drama is def present most of the time (my current M240 mods are dinan springs and spacers) but I knew that going in.

When I test drove the ZF, it felt like it was changing gears all the time - esp in sport so I opted for the 6spd and its ok. Def not the best shift but not the worst either!

Lack of LSD on the M240 is something I'm often reminded about when spirited driving is called for but I do like the compact size of the car. I wish there was more flexibility in the settings - a la ///M but I guess thats the trade-off.

I'm liking the F22 platform and the new M240 pics look encouraging and I'm glad I went this route - I dont feel too short-changed not getting an M2. Seen a few folks make some resonator mods which would add some drama back so that may be next on the list for me

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by silver_mcoupe

I went the other way (2017 F80 Competition w DCT to 2020 M240 6MT).

The lack of drama is def present most of the time (my current M240 mods are dinan springs and spacers) but I knew that going in.

When I test drove the ZF, it felt like it was changing gears all the time - esp in sport so I opted for the 6spd and its ok. Def not the best shift but not the worst either!

Lack of LSD on the M240 is something I'm often reminded about when spirited driving is called for but I do like the compact size of the car. I wish there was more flexibility in the settings - a la ///M but I guess thats the trade-off.

I'm liking the F22 platform and the new M240 pics look encouraging and I'm glad I went this route - I dont feel too short-changed not getting an M2. Seen a few folks make some resonator mods which would add some drama back so that may be next on the list for me

Get the LSD. It makes a huge difference in dynamics and rear traction.

[RugbyBro]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

There are over 30 reported instances in that thread I linked of stock DCT and 6MT cars spinning the crank hub. While that number is much smaller than the hundreds of reported failures in modified S55s, the number of failures in stock S55s is undoubtedly much larger as people that drive stock S55 cars tend not to be on the forums.

I do not think this is a widespread issue in stock cars, but the out of warranty cost to fix the issue can be high (replacement the friction disk, re-time the motor) to extremely high (short block replacement). For me personally, it's not worth the risk after all the reading I've done over the years and the shops and techs I've spoken with that work on S55s.

Yes, you can do the crank bolt capture on the cheap or pin the hub for $3K, but even then, you're walking on egg shells and your warranty will go out the window once BMW sees those modifications. Since these are parts not built to OEM standards, much less are a part that BMW offers, the Magnusson Moss Act offers you no protection.

There are 21 voted instances of SCH on stock cars of 1188 votes = ~1%. All of the SAs I've talked to have not seen SCH with any notable frequency. Sure it *can* happen, but you could also spin a bearing, or have detonation, or have your belt sucked into your engine if you buy that hype... The only people I've heard talk about it are shops that have a vested interest in selling you fixes. Again, fixes have their place but they shouldn't be used to fear-monger.

Your logic makes no sense because if you're in warranty a fix would be free, and once you're out of warranty and you add a CBC you're not losing out on anything. Again a stock slip is very unlikely to result in anything other than a re-time. Also a CBC literally slaps on top of the balancer... so even if you really believe the hype on OE quality, there is very little that can go wrong with it if you install it properly. Walking on eggshells? This isn't some lego motor... I'll go back to the fact that GT4 race cars run all day and night with a stock hub and no reports or reputation of spins, and reputable shops in Europe that build track & ring tools only recommend a CBC.

I honestly just wanted to give you a sanity check so you could hopefully get into an S55 and not worry so much, but your mind is made up - hopefully anyone who reads this and wants to go S55 can go into with a little more clarity.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by RugbyBro

All of the SAs I've talked to have not seen SCH with any notable frequency.

The BMW techs I talk with have a different opinion about the frequency.

Your logic makes no sense because if you're in warranty a fix would be free, and once you're out of warranty and you add a CBC you're not losing out on anything. Again a stock slip is very unlikely to result in anything other than a re-time.

The CBC is not a 100% solution.

If it slips and only a re-time is needed, the friction disk still needs to be replaced. To get to that disk is pricey.

This isn't some lego motor... I'll go back to the fact that GT4 race cars run all day and night with a stock hub and no reports or reputation of spins

Not sure I believe that. Also, race motors have a far lower service life than a street motor and that racecar is serviced, repaired, and replaced very often. Race motors typically go a few thousand miles and then are rebuilt.

I honestly just wanted to give you a sanity check so you could hopefully get into an S55 and not worry so much, but your mind is made up - hopefully anyone who reads this and wants to go S55 can go into with a little more clarity.

I am too providing information for the group. I'm not a sky is falling type of person and if I were that type, would have never bought my M235 given the bad reputation of BMW reliability.

The S55 is like most any other M motor of past. It has a potentially expensive Achilles heal. You can roll the dice and hope for the best. You can take preventative measures and hope for the best. Either way, you'd best have a hefty rainy day fund available in the event that the worst case comes to fruition as the "M" cost is a very real thing.

[RugbyBro]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

The BMW techs I talk with have a different opinion about the frequency.

This will go no where as there's no where to verify anything either of us are saying

The CBC is not a 100% solution.

If it slips and only a re-time is needed, the friction disk still needs to be replaced. To get to that disk is pricey.

You mean this one: https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-...r/11238090136/

If you think the stock hub with the correct lateral load is still likely to fail then you would have to believe then that BMW intentionally puts friction disks that can't handle the load of their engine when properly installed... to which I will gladly call

Not sure I believe that. Also, race motors have a far lower service life than a street motor and that racecar is serviced, repaired, and replaced very often. Race motors typically go a few thousand miles and then are rebuilt.

Agreed race cars are more closely maintained than street cars, however, these cars are subjected to much more abuse than street cars and aren't slipping hubs or running "fixes"

I am too providing information for the group. I'm not a sky is falling type of person and if I were that type, would have never bought my M235 given the bad reputation of BMW reliability.

The S55 is like most any other M motor of past. It has a potentially expensive Achilles heal. You can roll the dice and hope for the best. You can take preventative measures and hope for the best. Either way, you'd best have a hefty rainy day fund available in the event that the worst case comes to fruition as the "M" cost is a very real thing.

S55 is just another motor - if you drink the kool aid and believe it's some uber special, hand built Ferrari motor and then spend 3-5k on an unnecessary fix then idk what to tell you. They are built to have the shit beat out of them and it doesn't have an "Achilles heel" outside of poor maintenance. The characterization of "rolling the dice" is so off-base that it's comical. Never have BMWs been more reliable than the F-Chassis cars and now G-Chassis when maintained properly.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by RugbyBro

S55 is just another motor - if you drink the kool aid and believe it's some uber special, hand built Ferrari motor and then spend 3-5k on an unnecessary fix then idk what to tell you. They are built to have the shit beat out of them and it doesn't have an "Achilles heel" outside of poor maintenance. The characterization of "rolling the dice" is so off-base that it's comical. Never have BMWs been more reliable than the F-Chassis cars and now G-Chassis when maintained properly.

I agree, the S55 is nothing too terribly special or super advanced, but BMW thinks quite highly of it given the prices it demands for the repairs.

Yes, F series BMWs are quite reliable, comparatively speaking to prior gens and BMW has made great strides in improving overall quality in the past 10 years and have made themselves the most reliable German brand behind Porsche.

[Moflow]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

the number of failures in stock S55s is undoubtedly much larger as people that drive stock S55 cars tend not to be on the forums.

Unless they have a problem with their car. Then they're definitely getting on the forums.

[spidy512]

Funny how things turn out...

I somehow convinced my Dad to buy an M4. I introduced my parents to BMW last year when I bought my M240ix, and they within a month dropped the Jeep brand for a 2020 X5 after 30 years of GC's. My Dad is impossible to please, so when he asked me to show him some BMW Hot Rods, I knew exactly what to do.

Ya see, my Dad has been a muscle car guy his whole life. He traded a $60k 66' C100 for a Roush S3 Mustang, which ended up being too much for a 75yo man. 650 horsepower from a supercharged motor was no fun on the street, and he admitted it sorta scared him sometimes. You literally could lit the tires up at any speed, in any gear. So I introduced him to the M4. And now he is buying one of two M4's today. Good times.

Whats the point? I actually have driven a few M4's now, and it has provided much clarity.

*Disclaimer* I had a brief drive in all the M4's. It was on the street, so no shenanigans'.

So, clearly there is a large difference in these two cars. The M4 is big. It feels much bigger than my 2, and drives bigger. But not in a bad way. It also feels incredibly planted with that bigger size. I had some decent time in Dad's Mustang, and the M4 feels similar, but tighter (haha, WAY tighter). But I now understand why some say the 2 is better as a DD.

K8_M235i, I agree with you the the DCT when comparing ot the ZF. BUT, I can see if you were focused on driving 10/10ths how the DCT tranny would be the better choice. It was one of the best if not the best DCT I have driven, and I really enjoyed manual mode.

My car feels quicker, and more agile when scooting around town. The B58 is incredibly quick and I love the early onset of its torque curve. The M4 felt a bit lazier (trust me, I am splitting hairs, and maybe a smidge of DCT lag?) off the line, but my lord when the power hits it is a monster. The M4 has a stiffer suspension and it quickly became clear how focused this car is. I hope to convince my Dad to take it to the track so he can experience what this car is capable of as you can barely stretch its legs legally on the the street. I too have a very short drive to work, and the m240 makes it seem like a hoot when it really shouldn't be. I am not sure I would enjoy it as much in the M4.

I now find myself questioning my desire for an M2. I am smitten with the looks of the M2, but having compared the S55 to my B58, I may reconsider that thought and put some time and money into the M240 (I know the N55 is not a S55). I already am blow away by its performance stock, and I can only imagine with the proper suspension and power mods how potent the f22 chassis can be. Although I like the M2 for its looks the M240 is just as atractive when properly set up. Decisions, decisions...

Overall, the folks who chimed in who had or have both of these cars pretty much nailed it as far as the personality of these cars. I feel blessed and somewhat lucky that I will have an M4 in the family to drive now and again. Part of why my Dad is getting this car is so he and I can spend more time together, and he has already told me to make sure to come drive it when I want to. It is a bonus he really likes my car as well, so win win for us.

Thanks for reading if you made it this far....

josh

[B58togo]

^^

B58 can be a monster for sure, even on the stock turbo. The LSD helps tremendously to put the power down. As much as I want an M2 Comp, I just can't justify the price difference right now.

[spidy512]

Originally Posted by B58togo

^^

B58 can be a monster for sure, even on the stock turbo. The LSD helps tremendously to put the power down. As much as I want an M2 Comp, I just can't justify the price difference right now.

The awd makes it good enough without the LSD for now. That is a mod I amnot sure I will get to. To many other priorities... haha

I kinda can afford an M2, but the prices are just getting silly. The M2 is very popular right now, along with all the f22's in general. The salesman at the BMW dealer told me to wait a while as the prices are way too high. I did see a couple 50k cars pop up on Carguru's, and for good prices. So I don't know. I need to drive one for sure before I do anything. For now, I will go grovel with my Dad to borrow the M4... He bought the white one today. Picks it up Tomorrow.

josh

whoa, just saw your mods and 1/4 mi. Nice work. And yeah, I can totally see why you are not trading up...

[WolfGTI]

Having driven the M2CS at the track it's quite the car stock, however with the modifications I've done to my M240i, I do not feel interior except in braking, and that will be remedied soon. The S55 is a racier feeling motor than the B58, but both are still tons of fun.

Originally Posted by B58togo

^^

B58 can be a monster for sure, even on the stock turbo. The LSD helps tremendously to put the power down. As much as I want an M2 Comp, I just can't justify the price difference right now.

[spidy512]

Originally Posted by WolfGTI

Having driven the M2CS at the track it's quite the car stock, however with the modifications I've done to my M240i, I do not feel interior except in braking, and that will be remedied soon. The S55 is a racier feeling motor than the B58, but both are still tons of fun.

That is great feedback WolfGTI. I guess from my perspective, BMW did use this chassis for the M235iR and it has had great success and proven to be durable. So it doesn't necessarily surprise me to hear you (someone with lots of track experience) say that. It also makes me stoked to hear how capable this motor and car are.

And to that point, the stealth value of the M240 is really growing on me. I live in a performance car rich environment (it really is ridiculous), so it is very easy for me to fly under the radar in this car. Except for the 19" BBS and the Estoril Blue of course... But only real enthusiast tend to notice the car.

josh