[Dannyxz]

Originally Posted by albertw

I read several threads about the MT in the 235 & 240 before buying. This is the first one that actually discusses the negatives of it. Prior to this all I saw was praise, despite explicit questions about how well it works.

For me (90% of my cars have had manuals) the engine should respond instantly and proportionately to the throttle given while downshifting, and on upshifts the revs should drop just about as quickly as I can move the shift lever. Many of my early cars were like this, but pollution controls have taken most newer cars far away from this ideal. A car doesn't have to move too far into hanging throttle and lazy blip response for the fun of driving a manual to be killed by the annoyance of poor engine response.

It sounds to me, from only this one thread, that I made the right choice in buying an auto (no MT cars were available for a test drive within 1000 miles). I'm very happy I took with a grain of salt all the other posts in all the other threads that seem to have been written by MT fanboys who either are blind to the limitations in the 2 series or couldn't admit there are problems.

I drove both before making my decision.

Granted this is my first MT car, but the automatic felt soulless as far as driving experience goes. But that goes for any automatic car. You just press the gas and go.

I think I have been thoroughly converted to MT from this car as I’m all smiles while I’m shifting my gears everyday!

[CP911]

Originally Posted by albertw

When I learned to drive, there was none of this nonsense. The only reasons to slip the clutch after starting from a stop were (i) driver incompetence or (ii) driver indifference to machine abuse.

I don't think I will ever be able to get over my revulsion at having to rev match using the clutch. The 240 may have a pretty good clutch / engine response by present day standards, but based on what has been written in this thread it would be unacceptable to me.

I got rid of my '99 323i prematurely entirely because of this issue (test drove a 328i which was excellent, but the 323i turned out to be terrible). Went to an '01 Z06 which had excellent throttle / clutch action and happily kept it for 16 years. I would still have it if I didn't want to contract down to one car.

You are assuming too much based on what you are reading. The same applies for when I learned to drive. However, after actually owning and driving cars with and without rev-hang, I've come to realize it's actually easier and smoother shifting a car with rev-hanging behavior. Without it, or when revs just drop suddenly "like the old days," you had no choice but to try and "catch" the RPMs on the way down, usually leading to a jerky shift or having to stare at the tach needle to catch it where you thought it was supposed to be for the next gear up. Now, you just let off the clutch pedal immediately and feather it out based on feel to keep things smooth and quick.

I realize some people don't like to try new things, but you are missing out on what is an equally satisfying or potentially more satisfying driving experience. Or you can simply choose to keep telling yourself whatever you want to justify your decision to buy an automatic transmission this time around.

[albertw]

Originally Posted by CP911

I realize some people don't like to try new things, but you are missing out on what is an equally satisfying or potentially more satisfying driving experience. Or you can simply choose to keep telling yourself whatever you want to justify your decision to buy an automatic transmission this time around.

Some people are more sensitive to machinery. Others are less.

Anyone who thinks needing to slip the clutch to rev match is good feature rather than a serious negative falls into the latter category, in my opinion.

FYI, my original post wasn't to justify my decision or convince anyone else. It was to complain about the lack of useful information in previous threads about the 240 MT, which included several of the same posters as here.

[EstorilM240]

Originally Posted by CP911

The 2-series M/T is one of the best I've ever had the pleasure of driving/owning. Not sure why you are calling people fanboys or assuming there are limitations or problems when you haven't even driven one!

Rev-hang happens when you aren't driving aggressively and can still be managed to perfection by immediately releasing the clutch pedal, but doing so in a controlled fashion to ease the RPMs down into the next gear. Drive it hard, let off the gas quickly, and the car's ECU knows what you want to do and will drop RPMs much more quickly.

I can't speak for the M235i, but my M240i with the B58 engine has very good throttle response for blipping/heel-and-toe. Again, no issues whatsoever.

I can shift my car more quickly, more accurately, and more smoothly than I could my previous 2007 Porsche Carrera S 6-speed even though it had a NA engine with no rev-hang programming. The clutch pedal was stiff as hell and the shifter action was horrible being a cable-actuated system.

Other than a Miata or S2000, my M240i has the best feeling M/T I've ever experienced in a car. Super accurate, super feel, super fun.

There are reasons to own an automatic, but in this case, it's not because the manual is bad. Quit hatin' man!

I agree strongly, the M240i has one one of my favorite manual-transmission vehicles in terms of shift feel, smoothness, and simplicity of clutch modulation. Although I made a long post on shifting smoothly, that long post is much more relevant in other cars. On a day to day basis, this has been by far the easiest car to shift smoothly - people immediately noted how much smoother my upshifts were (rev hang barely makes a difference) when I went from my previous N/A Honda. I can finish the clutch release very quickly and with nearly zero delay/excessive clutch slipping.

It might be also because I tend to shift at pretty low revs, going up each gear around 1700-2000RPM. However, even if I do something very odd like rev to 4K, then skip from 2 to 5, it is extremely smooth. Sometimes my upshifts in other cars were less smooth because the revs dropped too quickly, and the auto-rev-match feature in the M240i actually compensates (if you do a super slow 2 to 3 upshift, you'll notice that the car just holds the engine at the exact correct revs it should be in 3rd gear, giving you a perfect shift). Unfortunately the feel is almost impossible to communicate in a forum post, and because something like 1-2% of dealer 2 series are manual, you will probably won't be able to test drive one unless you can find a manual 2 on Turo or something similar.

This is even after having owned multiple cable-throttle and DBW throttle cars from Honda + Mazda, including the raved-about S2000 and Miata. Although the S2000 may have marginally better shift action and pedal placement, it was not as easy to drive smoothly. Also, people who like smoother shifters will like the BMW, people who like notchier shifters will like the Hondas. There's a reason why we don't see rev hang threads constantly, the rev hang programming is not as bad as say the Honda Civic Si. There are plenty of reasons to choose and be happy with the 8AT, but I think even for the typical "I like my cable throttle feel" drivers, the M240i at least should be great.

In my case, my chief complaint about the 6MT here is that I lose a staggering 4MPG on the highway. Sixth gear does NOT need to be so short, since we reach top speed in fifth anyway, we could easily lengthen it by 15-20% and gain ~2MPG.

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by EstorilM240

In my case, my chief complaint about the 6MT here is that I lose a staggering 4MPG on the highway. Sixth gear does NOT need to be so short, since we reach top speed in fifth anyway, we could easily lengthen it by 15-20% and gain ~2MPG.

Dan Fitzgerald at diffsonline will build you a diff with just about any gearing you'd reasonably want to live with: https://diffsonline.com/bmw-f22-m240...l#.XPMDOshJG70. Based upon your comment, the 2.56 or the 2.81 might be just the ticket. If you don't already have one, you can use Dan's gearing calculator to see what the difference would be: https://diffsonline.com/bmw-differen...formation.html.

Of course, it's unlikely one would ever pay for itself in lowered fuel bills (I'm too lazy to do the math right now), but you might prefer a different ratio just for the change it would bring in driving behavior.

[delvec03]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the clutch delay valve yet....

I've been a long time stick driver and when I hopped into my 2 it was like I was starting over. smooth shifts were impossible.... until I took out the cdv.

my tip: find your cdv and delete it.

[keylime503]

I have zero regrets about getting 6MT for my M240i. The *only* complaint I have is the rough 1->2 shift as others have noted. But it's a minor point and is vastly outweighed by all the positives of having a true 6MT mated with the awesome B58 engine. The auto-rev match is surprisingly perfect and does exactly what you expect every single time. It's truly a joy to drive this car with 6MT.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by albertw

I read several threads about the MT in the 235 & 240 before buying. This is the first one that actually discusses the negatives of it. Prior to this all I saw was praise, despite explicit questions about how well it works.

For me (90% of my cars have had manuals) the engine should respond instantly and proportionately to the throttle given while downshifting, and on upshifts the revs should drop just about as quickly as I can move the shift lever. Many of my early cars were like this, but pollution controls have taken most newer cars far away from this ideal. A car doesn't have to move too far into hanging throttle and lazy blip response for the fun of driving a manual to be killed by the annoyance of poor engine response.

It sounds to me, from only this one thread, that I made the right choice in buying an auto (no MT cars were available for a test drive within 1000 miles). I'm very happy I took with a grain of salt all the other posts in all the other threads that seem to have been written by MT fanboys who either are blind to the limitations in the 2 series or couldn't admit there are problems.

You are right, people overstate the positives and understate the negatives to justify their purchases. It's why people need to do their due diligence. I'm all about being transparent on car forums about the positives and the negatives.

As I noted, the 6MT can frustrate me, especially the clutch feel. Also, I'm convinced VANOs system, the rev match assistance, and all these other nannies BMW employees to make for a better driving experience can work against someone like myself that has driven manuals for decades. I also find the clutch take up/catch point window to be pretty narrow and the clutch delay valve can make the catch point move a bit. Factor in a clutch that has next to no feel coming through the pedal and you can occasionally get a amateur start in 1st or on the 1-2 shift.

I absolutely hate the stock clutch pedal with it's lack of feel, odd and long throw, and way too high resting point. I replaced it with the adjustable Ultimate Clutch Pedal. That made a huge difference in feel, it lowered the resting spot about 1", and it allows me to adjust pedal firmness/weight. I'm much happier with the pedal now.

The M Performance shift knob added more feel and directness to the shift action. It made a larger difference than I was anticipating. I'd never run the stock shift knob now.

The HJS Euro 6 300 cell downpipe made for a MUCH more responsive throttle under all situations and even easier rev matching; it was already good in stock form assuming you're in the Sport throttle.

IMO, the positives of the 6MT far exceed the negatives. I find the 8AT to be the best auto I've driven, even slightly better than the stellar 8AT in the Lexus ISF. I just couldn't do it with my M235. I wanted the direct connection, even if it came with some compromise. Plus, a 6MT is pretty rare in these cars as the take rate of the 6MT is less than 10%.

When driven at 6/10s or more, the 6MT really comes into it's own. It feels robust, the shift action is direct, the gates well defined, the pedals are arranged nicely for heel/toe, the clutch feels strong, and everything just feels right. I feels fairly close to what I've felt in the S2000 and the Miatas I've driven. Some manuals feel like you're going to break them when driven hard. No this one.

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

...the pedals are arranged nicely for heel/toe...

That's interesting, because it's pretty much the opposite of my experience with the brake and throttle pedals in my M240. In fact, I was just out (on back roads) trying to get my heel-and-toe working better so that when I'm at the track next week that aspect of my driving isn't the mess it was last year.

A bit of background: I come to this from years of running a race car that at ¾-to-max braking pressure had (for me) the perfect height distance between the hard-pressed brake pedal and the throttle pedal. What that meant was the brake pedal was only slightly higher than the throttle pedal when the throttle got blipped. Heel-and-toe in that car was an automatic, no-thought, no-attention action.

Last year I discovered that I should have practiced heel-and-toe before I got to the track for my first event in the M240. Dummy me, I went out there without even thinking that it might be different. Mid-Ohio has a slightly downhill 5-->4-->3 / 135-->70 braking zone that I went into, lifted, de-clutched, shifted, blipped...oops...what blip!?! Not only could I not feel the throttle pedal, I couldn't hear the increase in RPMs.

I didn't get serious about fixing this until today, and I'm going to have to change my foot action quite a bit to get this working reliably. In my car, the throttle pedal is too low to allow me to continue with the way I've been heel-and-toeing. The pedal also has little resistance; my previous heel-and-toe has been with a throttle pedal that required noticeably more pressure. In the race car, heeling-and-toe required only a modest roll of the ball of the foot to effect whatever RPM increase I needed from its extremely responsive throttle pedal. The M240's throttle is quite unresponsive compared to that car.

I don't plan to do anything about the pedal heights - I'll just have to practice more with the car in the garage as well as out on back roads. I don't expect either of those to fully prepare me for where (height-wise) the brake pedal will be on the track. There it's going to be pressed much harder and will therefore be further down towards the throttle pedal when I roll my foot to blip the throttle.

The real kicker, however, is that the car is pretty much silent while all this is going on. You can always hear what a race car is doing, and in the M240 I get very little aural response when blipping the throttle. That was especially noticeable last year when I was on the track for the first time. I realized that my wearing a helmet that has quite effective earmuffs, along with the car's muffler(s) and its sound-deadening material, meant I was no longer going to be able to rely upon hearing the motor wind-up while blipping the throttle. For me, that's a much bigger issue than the poor relative pedal heights.

The summary, of course, is that car's are different, and we must adapt to them. If that just wasn't so darn inconvenient!

[Ceejay18]

I think the 2 series is a great MT car. It did take me some getting used to how notchy the MT is but once you get the hang of it i think you'll be fine. If you do feel like the clutch travel is too much for your liking you could try installing a BMS clutch stop and see if that allows you to get a much better release. Other then that, i find my MT to be best shifting when i shift at low RPMS, try starting there and see if you feel any differences. But remember, if you are taking a while to switch gears make sure you are applying enough gas when going to the next gear.

[keylime503]

Originally Posted by Ceejay18

I think the 2 series is a great MT car. It did take me some getting used to how notchy the MT is but once you get the hang of it i think you'll be fine. If you do feel like the clutch travel is too much for your liking you could try installing a BMS clutch stop and see if that allows you to get a much better release. Other then that, i find my MT to be best shifting when i shift at low RPMS, try starting there and see if you feel any differences. But remember, if you are taking a while to switch gears make sure you are applying enough gas when going to the next gear.

Oh yeah I forgot to mention that in my post above. The stock clutch engagement point was way too far from the floor so the $10 BMS clutch stop made a world of difference there.

[Dannyxz]

Final question (I think).

Do you guys fully disengage the clutch before giving gas when upshifting, or do you start giving gas as soon as you’re in gear and while releasing the clutch?

[polaris746]

When you let the engine hang at high rpm (4k+), do you hear a slight rattle sound from the engine? I noticed this today.

[Dylan86]

It's a bit of a weight transfer + timing game, took a while for me to master.

You can't power shift these cars, you have to "one-two" shift from first to second to allow the synchro's to slow down, then you can start going a bit harder from there onward.

[celsdogg]

Originally Posted by Dannyxz

Final question (I think).

Do you guys fully disengage the clutch before giving gas when upshifting, or do you start giving gas as soon as you’re in gear and while releasing the clutch?

you'll slip the clutch this way. you should only slip the clutch in 1st when starting from a dead stop. allow the clutch to fully engage (off the pedal) before applying power.

in the 235, I've actually found you can almost fully lock up the clutch starting from a dead stop with little to no throttle.

[Shovelman]

My 230 has a really numb clutch combined with bad turbo lag

[Dannyxz]

Originally Posted by celsdogg

you'll slip the clutch this way. you should only slip the clutch in 1st when starting from a dead stop. allow the clutch to fully engage (off the pedal) before applying power.

in the 235, I've actually found you can almost fully lock up the clutch starting from a dead stop with little to no throttle.

My RPM falls way too fast that way. Maybe I’m releasing the clutch too slow? The only way I shift smoothly is applying a little bit of throttle when disengaging the clutch.

I’ve even read on here:

Simultaneously release clutch and apply a little bit of throttle.

[MostlyHarmless]

Originally Posted by Dannyxz

My RPM falls way too fast that way. Maybe I’m releasing the clutch too slow? The only way I shift smoothly is applying a little bit of throttle when disengaging the clutch.

I’ve even read on here:

Simultaneously release clutch and apply a little bit of throttle.

When starting from a dead stop I personally think it's best to let off the clutch pedal until you feel the car start to move, then start to give it some gas progressively as you're continuing to let the clutch pedal up. This makes for a smooth start from a dead stop, without excessive wear on the clutch.

In my experience, the smoothest 1-2, 3-4, 5-6 shifts come from good timing between releasing the clutch pedal and pressing the gas pedal back in, just as the gear is engaging. One easy adjustment you can make is your seat position; if you find that hitting that "sweet spot" during clutch engagement is inconsistent, try putting your seat slightly forward or slightly back until you are hitting the sweet spot more consistently, then leave it in that spot or save it in memory. You might also need to adjust slightly when wearing different shoes.

[Dannyxz]

Originally Posted by MostlyHarmless

When starting from a dead stop I personally think it's best to let off the clutch pedal until you feel the car start to move, then start to give it some gas progressively as you're continuing to let the clutch pedal up. This makes for a smooth start from a dead stop, without excessive wear on the clutch.

In my experience, the smoothest 1-2, 3-4, 5-6 shifts come from good timing between releasing the clutch pedal and pressing the gas pedal back in, just as the gear is engaging. One easy adjustment you can make is your seat position; if you find that hitting that "sweet spot" during clutch engagement is inconsistent, try putting your seat slightly forward or slightly back until you are hitting the sweet spot more consistently, then leave it in that spot or save it in memory. You might also need to adjust slightly when wearing different shoes.

I see.

Do you agree then that you should give the car some gas when you’re letting go of the clutch in-between shifts?

[MostlyHarmless]

Originally Posted by Dannyxz

I see.

Do you agree then that you should give the car some gas when you’re letting go of the clutch in-between shifts?

During the up-shifts, yes, (you want to give it gas just as the clutch engages) but not during down-shifts unless you're blipping the throttle for rev-matching; then it's just a blip and not keeping your foot on the gas pedal.

[Dannyxz]

Originally Posted by MostlyHarmless

During the up-shifts, yes, (you want to give it gas just as the clutch engages) but not during down-shifts unless you're blipping the throttle for rev-matching; then it's just a blip and not keeping your foot on the gas pedal.

Perfect, that’s what I needed to hear.

Someone was telling me that you don’t need to give the car any gas when releasing the clutch on an upshift... and that made no sense to me.

[MostlyHarmless]

Originally Posted by Dannyxz

Perfect, that’s what I needed to hear.

Someone was telling me that you don’t need to give the car any gas when releasing the clutch on an upshift... and that made no sense to me.

Think of it this way; when you're up-shifting you are typically either accelerating or settling into a cruising speed where you're going to continue having your foot on the gas pedal to accelerate or maintain a speed. If you don't put your foot on the gas pedal to maintain the speed you're going or to accelerate, you're actually going to decelerate a bit until you put your foot back on the gas pedal.

When you're down-shifting you are (mostly) doing so in order to slow down; therefore, in that scenario, you don't need to give it any gas because you are using your gear change to slow down the car. On the other hand, if you are down-shifting in order to have a better gear selected to pass somebody, then it's ok to give it gas during the down-shift; although I prefer doing a rev-matched downshift to get it into the lower gear prior to accelerating to pass.