[MerlinMc]

Originally Posted by DrivingPassion

Incidentally, is it a common practice to buy the replacements parts myself and get the 3rd party independent mechanic to replace it?

I have often replaced the brake pads myself as it's relatively straightforward.

[overcoil]

Can you soak bleeder screw valves in PB Blaster to try to break loose the bleeders w/o snapping them ?

I'm not sure you want PB Blaster to soak onto brake lines.

[pikcachu]

Originally Posted by DrivingPassion

Hmmm ... since the material cost is around $300.
And, they are charging me $950, so the labor cost is $650?

How long are we talking here to replace all 4 brake pads? 6 hours?
I'd expect a decently trained mechanic to take less than 3 hours, wouldn't it?

Shouldn't be more than an hour to replace all pads

Maybe they are including cost for machining the rotors but I don't think bmw allows it. They usually just replace them or keep them as is

[DrivingPassion]

Originally Posted by Unicorn123

Passion,
...I want him to stay in business!

Yes, it makes sense. I agree.

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by DrivingPassion

How long are we talking here to replace all 4 brake pads? 6 hours?
I'd expect a decently trained mechanic to take less than 3 hours, wouldn't it?

As another member suggested, an hour of labor is generally sufficient to change all of the brake pads on a car. That time would include pulling the car into the service bay, raising it up, etc., etc., and then driving it back out again. There can be exceptions, but in your case they're unlikely to be relevant.

My 2¢ regarding dealer shop pricing practices...

The principal thing to remember with any labor quote from a dealer is that the service department is using the Flat Rate Manual (aka Flat Rate Guide, Flat Rate Book). These documents are created by each manufacturer for each of their models, and it establishes the number of hours required to complete each job in the shop. IMHO, the times in that book tend to be on the high side – it frequently works out to hundreds of dollars per hour, regardless of the shop’s stated hourly rate for labor.

Brake jobs are a classic example: typically, they're in the book as a 6-8 hour job, and it might take that long to do the job if the brakes are a rusty mess. Mind you, this job includes changing the rotors and the brake pads, inspecting the calipers, the caliper pistons, and the brake lines, and either bleeding or flushing the brake fluid. This job can sometimes take even longer than the book says; in that case, the dealer will still only charge you what the book says the job should take. However, I'd suggest that the typical brake job takes around 2-3 hours, and whole lot less in many cases. For example, if the system is clean and the parts come apart without any extra work on the part of the technician, he or she will get the job done fairly quickly.

I don’t know if the following practice is widespread or not (I assume it is): some years ago a couple of Northeast shop owners told me that dealership technicians get a percentage of the cost of a job. I never asked if that applied to both labor and parts, or just labor, but my guess is both. One shop owner told me he’d lost his best mechanic to a dealership because, even though the work was going to be more boring, he could make quite a lot more money working for a dealership. This helps to explain why replacing parts is generally the conversation when you’re talking to a dealership service representative. Dealership technicians function as parts replacement specialists – they’re not mechanics in the traditional sense of the word. The end result is that sometimes that can mean a dealer representative saying you need a new caliper instead of them dealing with a seized bleeder screw in the way a traditional mechanic would – something that would make a lot more financial sense for the owner.

All of this leads to the question I always ask: why do owners go to the dealer when it’s not necessary? By not necessary, I mean: the car is no longer under warranty, the inspection or repair can be reliably carried out by a capable independent without affecting the owner’s warranty, it’s not a recall issue, etc. That is, there are other shops that are able to perform the work that dealers’ shops do, that don’t replace parts when they don’t have to, and that (usually) have noticeably lower hourly rates than the local dealers – so why pay more by using the dealer’s shop?

Note that independents will be using the Flat Rate Guide, too. And yes, some will permit you to bring your own parts; the ones I’ve used that allowed me to do that increased their hourly rate to offset their loss of income from using the parts I supplied. With those shops, I did the math to see which made more sense for me.

I’m an old guy who’s been dealing with experienced mechanics for fifty years, and for me today’s dealership shop experience can be like traveling to Bizarro World. At the sort of independent shop I prefer, I can talk to anyone in the shop, from the owner to the fellow doing the least of the jobs. They are personable people, into cars, and they enjoy discussing my needs and my options. I won’t use a shop that won’t let me observe the work being done. It’s not that I wish to look over the mechanic’s shoulder while suggesting better ways for him to do his job; instead, I want to learn more about my vehicle and how to properly take care of it. Generally, however, I don’t hang out in the shop – I’m in there only when there’s something new or interesting going on.

None of this is to say that I don’t understand why dealers are operating the way they do. For example, compared to independents, dealers have tremendous overhead, including that imposed upon them by manufacturers (e.g., every decade or so, outfits like BMW decide on a new marketing approach, and enforced changes like those can result in millions of dollars of expense for the dealership owner). Along with the used car lot, the shop bays are where dealers make most of the money they need to stay in business and prosper. That’s fine, but I’m unwilling to support that model any more than is necessary; that includes my BMW, as well as the wife’s Mazda 3 and my Toyota Tundra.

Some members may have better or more current information than I've offered above - I welcome any and all corrections, improvements, etc.

/end dissertation

Regarding the seized bleed screw: assuming the caliper bleed screw threads become damaged during bleed screw removal, this link will take you to a number of pages & videos showing how you avoid buying a new caliper as a result: https://www.google.com/search?as_q="...er+bleed+screw. I don’t imagine there are many (any?) dealers willing to heli-coil a caliper bleed screw (even assuming they knew it could be done), but a capable independent shop should be able to do it. OTOH, the dealer would almost certainly void your warranty on the caliper. For me, I’d say “So what, you were already going to charge me for a new caliper.”. Of course, YMMV.

In summary, I (obviously) suggest finding a good independent. There are various resources for finding one, including this forum. I’ve used shops operating under the BIMRS.org umbrella and found them to be suitable for my needs; more here, https://www.bimrs.org/. BIMRS.org members are focused on keeping up with the complexity of our modern cars, including access to current BMW factory technical information.

Originally Posted by DrivingPassion

That's a hefty maintenance pill to swallow for regular service.

I guess I need to get rid of one car when my M3 runs out of 3 year factory maintenance because I'm expecting a solid sticker shock for maintaining the M3.

Perhaps, I just didn't expect this kind of maintenance costs.

No question BMWs are expensive cars to own. After buying a 12-cylinder E-Type Jaguar in the mid-1970s, I came to understand that the retail MSRP of a car is an excellent guide to what it will cost to maintain it. The Porsche guys sometimes refer to their outsized maintenance expenses as the P-car tax, the Corvette guys call theirs the Corvette tax - I don't know what Ferrari owners call their $20K brake jobs, but I'm sure it's something suitable.

[DrivingPassion]

Originally Posted by dradernh

[...]
No question BMWs are expensive cars to own.
[...]

Thank you, dradernh, for the effort in helping me to understand and being encouraging. Yes, your explanations made absolute sense about dealerships.

[gmazet]

Originally Posted by DrivingPassion

I just sent in my M235i 2015 for 40K service.
This car was bought through the official CPO program with 4 new tires and new brakes last year at this time.

I have only put in around 10K miles in 12 months.

The SA just sent me this bombshell:

1. We were unable to finish the brake flush at this time, because the inner bleeders are seized (which usually happens if water and salt gets to it). The way to solve this issue is to try to loosen them up which is half an hour of labor at $100.
2. The only risk is that one or both calipers may break during this procedures, which in that case, each caliper is $1200 to install.
3. All 4 tires are at the wear bar and need to be replaced and aligned. The price to replace all 4 plus alignment is $1080 plus tax.
   
4. And front and rear brake pads are at 4mm(3mm is the lowest point) and need to be replaced as well. The price to replace all 4 pads is $950 plus tax.
   

What do you think?
How could the tires last only 1 year under 10K miles?
Flushing the brakes can brake the seized calipers ?

D to the I to the Y

[MarcoZandrini]

...www.bimrs,org to find a reputable indie shop. I would try soaking the bleeder with Kano Aeroquil or similar penetrating oil. Overnight soak is best. Then use a deep 6-point socket to break them loose.

[overcoil]

Originally Posted by MarcoZandrini

...www.bimrs,org to find a reputable indie shop. I would try soaking the bleeder with Kano Aeroquil or similar penetrating oil. Overnight soak is best. Then use a deep 6-point socket to break them loose.

is it the flare nut wrench (in comparison to the combination wrench) that surrounds the nut more ? Thats what I use on my bleeders.

[Funwithdesign]

Originally Posted by ScottSinger

is it the flare nut wrench (in comparison to the combination wrench) that surrounds the nut more ? Thats what I use on my bleeders.

Originally Posted by ScottSinger

is it the flare nut wrench (in comparison to the combination wrench) that surrounds the nut more ? Thats what I use on my bleeders.

Flare wrenches are used on hard brake lines where you can't get a box end wrench onto it because of the line. It's basically a box wrench with an opening.

As the bleeders are exposed you can use a box wrench which will grip each side of the bleeder.

[DrivingPassion]

Originally Posted by gmazet

D to the I to the Y

I looked up a couple of videos and it does not sound that difficult.

• Just knock out 2 pins
• remove the old pads
• replace it with the new pads
• re-insert the pins

The only hairy parts is the metal clip that is hugging them and the brake pad sensor.

I did not see any adjustments or calibration needed.

Do you guys have any recommended best videos or instructions to do this?

[overcoil]

Originally Posted by DrivingPassion

I looked up a couple of videos and it does not sound that difficult.

• Just knock out 2 pins
• remove the old pads
• replace it with the new pads
• re-insert the pins

The only hairy parts is the metal clip that is hugging them and the brake pad sensor.

I did not see any adjustments or calibration needed.

Do you guys have any recommended best videos or instructions to do this?

Lifting the car needs good stable equipment.

Pressing in piston, opening up brake reservoir and maybe sucking out old fluid and putting in topping off with fresh fluid.

https://www.2addicts.com/forums/show....php?t=1587779

[DrivingPassion]

Thanks, Scott. Those look like very good vids.

[mcompact]

My dealer charged 282.40 for an oil change, brake fluid flush, and coolant change.
My Michelin PSS lasted 32k miles, which included 3 track days and one night at the local 1/8 mile strip. At 47k miles I'm still on the original pads.

[mcompact]

Originally Posted by USA-RET

One reason to consider leasing or trading before warranty expires. All the Euro cars are expensive to maintain.

Tell me about it; I'm on my second Chapter 7.

[aaaaah]

Originally Posted by pikcachu

$950 for pads is crazy. You can probably get them for less than $300

$148 for the front https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/bmw...et-34116859066

rears should be $100

Not when spraying the bleeders with some PB Blaster or equivalent, sitting down for 30 minutes and trying again costs $100

[DrivingPassion]

Should the brake pad sensors be replaced when I replace the pads?

[M235SDCA]

Originally Posted by DrivingPassion

I looked up a couple of videos and it does not sound that difficult.

• Just knock out 2 pins
• remove the old pads
• replace it with the new pads
• re-insert the pins

The only hairy parts is the metal clip that is hugging them and the brake pad sensor.

I have done a lot of brakes on cars over the years and the pad swap on these brakes is especially easy. Just like you described. Also have to say Dradernh's post is spot on IMO.

My 235 was just in for brakes as part of service. So I brought in a set of pads for them to use instead of the BMW pads. SA said that it would be an extra hour they would have to charge me for. Couldn't believe it. They were just going by what was in the computer system. So I declined and just swapped the pads when I got home. Took about an hour total.

The BMW SAs are also on commission - at least my preferred dealer. It is in their best interest to sell you more services. The alignment thing I just got offered on my 340 that has 17000 miles. Apparently this is recommended every 15k? Just crazy.

Best thing to do is DIY or find a good indy. Another option might be to negotiate with the dealer. There is one in my area that would do that when I balked at some pricing - not sure how common it is. If they don't budge just take it somewhere else.

[MassNerd]

Originally Posted by DrivingPassion

Based on the car history, the car was sold NEW to the original owner at Minnesota so their road salting practice could be more harsh than the NE.

I live in NE and have driven in MN in the winter. My impression was they salt less there.

[overcoil]

Originally Posted by DrivingPassion

Should the brake pad sensors be replaced when I replace the pads?

If it hasn’t been activated no need to replace.
Though, my rear sensor had crud and webs in its junctions so it was worth for me to get in there and clean things out after 35,000 when installing new sensor.

[Unicorn123]

drader,

Excellent summary. E-Type V-12 huh? I always wanted one of those but never had the gumption to take one on...

Passion,

Looks like you have gotten a great deal of sound advise from the Team here on the forum. Good luck!

[DrivingPassion]

Yes, indeed, you guys have been of great help. I totally appreciate it a lot.

On another front, another independent BMW shop came back with this quote:
“
I would need the last 7 of your VIN number to get an accurate quote.
Brake replacement required pads, rotors, and sensor. Typically replacement of brakes runs around $800-1000 per axle.

Wheel alignment is $175 and

brake flush runs between $155-205 depending if you have the M sport calipers. “