[ASAP]

Originally Posted by David70

Actual sales dwindling?

Attachment 3228388

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...-market-share/

did anything specific happen in the world between 2020 and 2022?

[David70]

Originally Posted by ASAP

did anything specific happen in the world between 2020 and 2022?

Your point is that the data is wrong? How? It's a 10 year trend line and 2022 was by far the highest point for market share.

[Car-Addicted]

Originally Posted by David70

Your point is that the data is wrong?

Get back to me in two years. Boom followed by Bust.

[KRS_SN]

There is an opportunity though. EV values are taking a pounding. If and it's a big if you want a slightly USED ev as a second car there is a killing to be made.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

There is an opportunity though. EV values are taking a pounding. If and it's a big if you want a slightly USED ev as a second car there is a killing to be made.

I'll wait for a Taycan with carbon ceramic brakes, at 4 years old should be around :£7k

[kyriian]

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

There is an opportunity though. EV values are taking a pounding. If and it's a big if you want a slightly USED ev as a second car there is a killing to be made.

Pretty much what I am banking on myself, though other than Teslas which I outright refuse to be seen in, there just isn't much options on the used market

[KRS_SN]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

I'll wait for a Taycan with carbon ceramic brakes, at 4 years old should be around :£7k

27k sounds about right.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by David70

Your point is that the data is wrong? How? It's a 10 year trend line and 2022 was by far the highest point for market share.

Addressing a few of your posts. The trendline is a misrepresentation. In 2010 there were no BEV from mainstream manufacturers, other than the 80-mile Leaf (Dec. 2010). The trendline is global sales, we should be looking at US sales, where BEV have a harder sell do to potential traveling distances, which is where EV sales volume is going to level off at some point.

You are the current typical EV adopter. Dual income or well financed, and keep an ICE in the fleet. Great demographic to be in, but the reality is the market has a huge 2nd tier ownership group that can't afford a 2 or 3 car household, and do not have private overnight charging access. This is why some of us see a plateau for BEV adoption.

[gblansten]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Addressing a few of your posts. The trendline is a misrepresentation. In 2010 there were no BEV from mainstream manufacturers, other than the 80-mile Leaf (Dec. 2010). The trendline is global sales, we should be looking at US sales, where BEV have a harder sell do to potential traveling distances, which is where EV sales volume is going to level off at some point.

You are the current typical EV adopter. Dual income or well financed, and keep an ICE in the fleet. Great demographic to be in, but the reality is the market has a huge 2nd tier ownership group that can't afford a 2 or 3 car household, and do not have private overnight charging access. This is why some of us see a plateau for BEV adoption.

If the market steps up and offers more charging at work and in condos/apartments then I think sales will move forward into more segments. Will be interesting to watch how this plays out.

[David70]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Addressing a few of your posts. The trendline is a misrepresentation. In 2010 there were no BEV from mainstream manufacturers, other than the 80-mile Leaf (Dec. 2010). The trendline is global sales, we should be looking at US sales, where BEV have a harder sell do to potential traveling distances, which is where EV sales volume is going to level off at some point.

You are the current typical EV adopter. Dual income or well financed, and keep an ICE in the fleet. Great demographic to be in, but the reality is the market has a huge 2nd tier ownership group that can't afford a 2 or 3 car household, and do not have private overnight charging access. This is why some of us see a plateau for BEV adoption.

Feel free to remove 2010 from the graph, it's not meaningful

The trendline is global sales, we should be looking at US sales, where BEV have a harder sell do to potential traveling distances, which is where EV sales volume is going to level off at some point.

Global sales compared to U.S, it's a harder sale here than some but also easier sale here than other countries. Large part of the world has little money, lives in high rises, buys the cheapest transportation they can get. What part of our population lives near a city and rarely takes long trips by car? The never ending, "what about me as I regularly drive across the country" makes me laugh.
Tesla has already opened part of their network to other manufacturers, committed to opening 7000 to everyone by the end of 2024. Charging times continue to drop, chargers continue to be built. These reduce the barrier to entry and increase the potential market.

Yes, sales of everything level off at some point, it will happen to EV's, not going out on a limb to predict this. When/what level will this happen?

Yes, well financed people are the first adopters of all new technology. People that bought an EV 10 years ago were really out there as they couldn't drive anywhere. Now we complain about it not being as simple as an ICE.

"2 car family with a home charger" - yes it is the best/easiest option. Reality is we make a long road trip 4-5 times a year. If the price drops enough, charging network grows, charging time continues to drop, dealing with an outside charger 4-5 times a year but never going back to a gas station might be the easier/cheaper solution. Apartment complex near me is advertising EV chargers, they believe this is a benefit worth offering. I have a rental house & just built a garage behind it, am wiring it for 240v & be happy to add an EV charger for the right amount of money (they pay all electric, I would like them to pay for the charger over time but could also see not bothering for the right person)

[kyriian]

Originally Posted by gblansten

If the market steps up and offers more charging at work and in condos/apartments then I think sales will move forward into more segments. Will be interesting to watch how this plays out.

Don't forget other market factors though, namely interest, not everyone can walk into a dealer and plop down 50-70k for a car.
When finance rates are 7-8%, it makes buying a car new or otherwise, a very hard pill to swallow

[David70]

Originally Posted by kyriian

Don't forget other market factors though, namely interest, not everyone can walk into a dealer and plop down 50-70k for a car.
When finance rates are 7-8%, it makes buying a car new or otherwise, a very hard pill to swallow

Average price of all new vehicles is now over $48k and a large part of the U.S. can't and shouldn't be buying a new car. EV's will also be sold on the used market and this market needs to have options for charging.

Lowest price Model 3 after tax credit is $34k? You are welcome to complain about the tax credit but when I buy an EV I will happily take advantage of it, same with every other tax credit I may or may not agree with.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by David70

Average price of all new vehicles is now over $48k and a large part of the U.S. can't and shouldn't be buying a new car. EV's will also be sold on the used market and this market needs to have options for charging.

Lowest price Model 3 after tax credit is $34k? You are welcome to complain about the tax credit but when I buy an EV I will happily take advantage of it, same with every other tax credit I may or may not agree with.

For a 273-mile range, slow, zero options, silver paint and ugly ass wheels Model 3. Get the Model 3 with self driving and real paint and wheels and it's a $52K car (incl. wall charger) with Uncle Sam's tax rebate, which comes later and doesn't reduce the loan payment or tax on the car on the $59K priced car.

It'd be interesting to know how the average $48K retail price is calculated. There are lots of well-equipped Model 3 ICE alternatives for $35K or even less like the Accord, Camry and Altima. The $15K price delta buys 100,000+ miles of gas and maintenance. And they have no range or refueling limitations.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

27k sounds about right.

From £120k original it's a steal as long as the err battery won't ..

[David70]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

For a 273-mile range, slow, zero options, silver paint and ugly ass wheels Model 3. Get the Model 3 with self driving and real paint and wheels and it's a $52K car (incl. wall charger) with Uncle Sam's tax rebate, which comes later and doesn't reduce the loan payment or tax on the car on the $59K priced car.

It'd be interesting to know how the average $48K retail price is calculated. There are lots of well-equipped Model 3 ICE alternatives for $35K or even less like the Accord, Camry and Altima. The $15K price delta buys 100,000+ miles of gas and maintenance. And they have no range or refueling limitations.

You want to compare it to an Accord/Camry but can't buy the Tesla without upgrading because it is slow (how many seconds faster 0-60 than the above?), stock wheels aren't good enough and you have to add $15,000 "Self Driving" to the Tesla? An "enthusiast" trying to buy reasonable transportation and saying he has to spend $15k on Self Driving seems strange.

You can complain about when the $7500 hits your bank account but you still have to include it in your overall price of the car.

If you are interested in how the average price of cars is calculated, look it up. Point was that is the average so there is a significant part of the population spending over $50k, whether they need to or not.

[gblansten]

Originally Posted by David70

You want to compare it to an Accord/Camry but can't buy the Tesla without upgrading because it is slow (how many seconds faster 0-60 than the above?), stock wheels aren't good enough and you have to add $15,000 "Self Driving" to the Tesla? An "enthusiast" trying to buy reasonable transportation and saying he has to spend $15k on Self Driving seems strange.

You can complain about when the $7500 hits your bank account but you still have to include it in your overall price of the car.

If you are interested in how the average price of cars is calculated, look it up. Point was that is the average so there is a significant part of the population spending over $50k, whether they need to or not.

Why does FSD at $15k have to be added?

[David70]

Originally Posted by gblansten

Why does FSD at $15k have to be added?

That's my question.

Post I replied to said -

Get the Model 3 with self driving and real paint and wheels and it's a $52K car (incl. wall charger) with Uncle Sam's tax rebate, which comes later and doesn't reduce the loan payment or tax on the car on the $59K priced car.

Best I can tell is he "needs" self driving but none of the other cars listed can come with it. It is the best way to jack up the price but hard to figure out why anyone would spend this kind of money when looking for reasonably priced car. From what I have read about it, hard to believe anyone is buying it as it seems like a huge waste of money.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by David70

That's my question.

Post I replied to said -



Best I can tell is he "needs" self driving but none of the other cars listed can come with it. It is the best way to jack up the price but hard to figure out why anyone would spend this kind of money when looking for reasonably priced car. From what I have read about it, hard to believe anyone is buying it as it seems like a huge waste of money.

The point I was making is you are using a stripped Model 3 as an example that EV cost the same or lower as the average $48K ICE. It is only because the Govenment subsidizes the price by $7,500 (18%) that the price gets anywhere near an ICE sedan. Also, if the average price of a car is now $48K, that is not reflective of every manufurer's low ball, no-option trim. Adding FSD is adding the "tech" Tesla's are famous for and 5.8 secs. to 60 is really slow for the "famously fast" Tesla Model 3 (just ask BGM). The lowball stripper Accord LX is $27.3K. The price difference to the stripped Model 3 buys 70,000 miles of fuel for the Accord.

Or plug in the $26,300 Camry SE instead of the Accord LX, same difference. The Camry sells about 100,000 more units per year than the Model 3.

[Efthreeoh]

EV are still "if" more chargers are built, "if" condensed housing add chargers... "if" charging gets faster, "if" solid state batteries...

If if if if...

People buy EV only "if" the Govenment subsidizes them $7,500. Lol.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

EV are still "if" more chargers are built, "if" condensed housing add chargers... "if" charging gets faster, "if" solid state batteries...

If if if if...

People buy EV only "if" the Govenment subsidizes them $7,500. Lol.

Public money squandered.

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

The point I was making is you are using a stripped Model 3 as an example that EV cost the same or lower as the average $48K ICE. It is only because the Govenment subsidizes the price by $7,500 (18%) that the price gets anywhere near an ICE sedan. Also, if the average price of a car is now $48K, that is not reflective of every manufurer's low ball, no-option trim. Adding FSD is adding the "tech" Tesla's are famous for and 5.8 secs. to 60 is really slow for the "famously fast" Tesla Model 3 (just ask BGM). The lowball stripper Accord LX is $27.3K. The price difference to the stripped Model 3 buys 70,000 miles of fuel for the Accord.

Or plug in the $26,300 Camry SE instead of the Accord LX, same difference. The Camry sells about 100,000 more units per year than the Model 3.

I'm starting to really hate the use of average/mean figures. I really wish more stats are put out there with mode figures which provides a better picture as to what most people are buying not mean.

ICE cars can still be had well below the average $48k price being thrown around here. Toyota has a few models that fit that bill. I bought my 2019 Toyota C-HR LE with minimal options for $20,600 OTD in 2019.

[Patton250]

Lol

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CuAUV...I2MzMwZWM3ZA==