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      09-17-2021, 01:40 PM   #1
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Golf R to M240i - what are your thoughts? (long post...sorry)

I've gone through a few old threads on the Golf R vs M235i and assume a lot of what I read remains true, but wanted to get some current opinions based on my driving preferences.

I'm currently in a 2015 Golf R (dual clutch trans) nearing 80,000 miles. I've owned it for about 4 years and am running stage 2, got the suspension dialed in a bit (sway bars and front camber kit) and run Michelin PS4S most of the year.

I'm a roadster-guy at heart, but having a 2 year old and 4 year old basically means I never have time by myself for a roadster and am not thrilled about maintaining two separate vehicles at this time. I've had two S2000's over the years and always lusted after the M roadsters. That brings me to M240i convertible (I know she is a bit heavy). I'm loving the idea of a short wheelbase vehicle with 4 seats, a soft-top, and lovely inline-6 exhaust note (not to mention the tuning capabilities of the B58). The only other vehicle that interests me is a 911 cabrio - and a newer (991), lower mileage example is out of my price range.

Most of my driving is done in the mountains of western NC. I have a 10 mile, one-way commute and always take the backroads (not a single stoplight to work). I drop the kids off at daycare near my house every morning, but after that I have some nice twisties to myself. I also enjoy longer drives in the mountains when time permits; I think my boys would love the top down as much as I would, and my wife has an SUV so I'm not too worried about losing the hatchback practicality.

I really enjoy driving the Golf R in the mountains at 8/10th's of its limits and that's the most I will do on public roads. I usually do an auto-x event once a year, but don't really enjoy driving the Golf at 10/10th's compared to something RWD like the S2000.

Here are some specific questions, but feel free to share any thoughts:
  • How is the ZF 8-speed in manual mode? I drive the Golf R DSG in manual mode 95% of the time.
  • Regarding the popular Chris Harris Golf R vs M235i video, he praises the Golf R chassis/suspension over the M235i - will I feel like I'm taking a step down if I move to the M240i convertible as far as the ride quality goes?
    For those who have driven a MK7 R, how would you compare the steering and brake feel between the two?
  • I love the all-weather performance of the Golf R so I'm leaning towards xDrive as we have a few cold/wet months each year with a handful of snowy days - if I'm only pushing the car 8/10th's at most, will xDrive feel lively enough in the rear or might I always wish I went RWD? I'm thinking I'd really want an LSD installed if I went RWD and am assuming I'd go stage 1 with either drive configuration.
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      09-17-2021, 02:23 PM   #2
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Had a 2016 Golf R with manual transmission until recently, have a 2017 M240i with manual.

- Suspension - M240i is superior at the limit and from a general damping perspective and handles most bumps better. R can corner flatter in "Race" mode, but otherwise tends to be crashy on bumps unless in comfort mode where it floats too much.
- Brakes - M240i stands up much better to hard use, R faded more at the track and rear brakes tend to be prone to high wear. M240i has much more positive brake feel when the brakes are hot, I would consider the R brakes to be a bit marginal for hard use.
- Steering - M240i has less feel around straight ahead, but is better pretty well everywhere else, also is better weighted for my needs compared with R when both in sport mode.
- Solidity - M240i feels a lot more solid and stable in normal use, other than the R stability on snow when compared with a RWD M240I

I always preferred driving the M240i in all conditions (including snow and ice), The R was a very good "shopping car" and all-rounder for us, now replaced with a Macan S. The M240i is the best of the 3 from my driving experience perspective.
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      09-17-2021, 04:25 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aerobod View Post
Had a 2016 Golf R with manual transmission until recently, have a 2017 M240i with manual.

- Suspension - M240i is superior at the limit and from a general damping perspective and handles most bumps better. R can corner flatter in "Race" mode, but otherwise tends to be crashy on bumps unless in comfort mode where it floats too much.
- Brakes - M240i stands up much better to hard use, R faded more at the track and rear brakes tend to be prone to high wear. M240i has much more positive brake feel when the brakes are hot, I would consider the R brakes to be a bit marginal for hard use.
- Steering - M240i has less feel around straight ahead, but is better pretty well everywhere else, also is better weighted for my needs compared with R when both in sport mode.
- Solidity - M240i feels a lot more solid and stable in normal use, other than the R stability on snow when compared with a RWD M240I

I always preferred driving the M240i in all conditions (including snow and ice), The R was a very good "shopping car" and all-rounder for us, now replaced with a Macan S. The M240i is the best of the 3 from my driving experience perspective.
+1 on this review as I owned a 2016 golr R manual and been driving an m240i convertible for the last 2.5years. I have kids also. If they are past baby seats age then there is enough room at the back for them. Personally if I had to do the move again, i will trade in R for m240i everyday just for the feel and sound of inline 6 ! I drive mine year around and in winter it is really not that bad, I normally turn off esc completely as the car seems to be much easier to drive/control than when all the nannies are on. Definetely would do LSD if find a better deal, can't justify to pay 5k(i'm from Canada).
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      09-17-2021, 04:30 PM   #4
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I haven't owned or driven an R and can't weigh-in on specific differences. Along with a number of other cars, I did consider buying one before I bought the M240i. What steered me away from the R was an account I read by a Dallas (IIRC) race shop that, despite all their efforts, never could get the R to completely stop handling like a front-drive biased car. I wanted RWD or strongly-RWD biased.

It sounds like you'd choose the RWD with an LSD except for your winter weather. I'd think a set of winter tires or very good all-season tires might get you through the cold months if you found it convenient to own two sets.

Looking at used M240i convertible RWD prices on https://www.autotempest.com/, I'm surprised at how high they are. I only saw one new car in the country on https://kilter.com/. Dealers don't always list things correctly, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iv-128i View Post
Definetely would do LSD if find a better deal, can't justify to pay 5k(i'm from Canada).
Now that the border's open, would US prices save you enough to make it worthwhile to drive down to Vermont, New Hampshire, or Massachusetts to have an LSD installed?
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      09-17-2021, 05:15 PM   #5
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Actually you guys can come to Canada, but we still can't travel to USA by car borders are closed for non essential travellers 🤪 unless it changed recently ! Well I can try to prove that LSD is pretty essential :
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      09-17-2021, 05:36 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by iv-128i View Post
Actually you guys can come to Canada, but we still can't travel to USA by car borders are closed for non essential travellers �� unless it changed recently ! Well I can try to prove that LSD is pretty essential :
Let's see: Montreal, winter, RWD...yeah, I'd argue that an LSD is essential, all right!
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      09-18-2021, 09:26 AM   #7
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I have an xDrive m240i convertible and find it the perfect all-year daily driver here in Michigan. I drove the Golf R and it is more of a roller skate. The rides are comparable, if anything, I'd say the BMW is more comfortable in Comfort mode and stiff enough in Sport.

The ZF8 is good, and makes good decisions. it is not as fun as the dual clutch transmissions, because with those you can tell it's gears and with the SF8 you can tell there's a torque converter in there. I use manual mode sometimes, just for fun, like around a slow corner I like to downshift and then wind out up the hill, but day in day out I leave it in Sport Auto.

I love having the convertible. I've never used the back seat, because I don't know any people who do not have legs.

For me BMW > Golf R, but I know I'd love the VW nearly as well.
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      09-18-2021, 11:15 AM   #8
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My experience is not on point, but I had a Mk. 7 GTI Autobahn with Unitronic Stage 1 ECU and TCU (DSG 'box). I put 60K on it, tuned since 6K, and I did a couple auto-x events with it. 370Z Sport + Touring before that, and '15 435 M Sport before my 240i (ZF 8AT).

Mk. 7 is tough to beat, for sure. Very good steering, brakes, easy to tune for lots of power, e-diff on the GTI is great, lively, yet comfortable with good quality interior materials. One of the best cars I ever owned. Way more fun that the 435i I just got rid of and never loved (but she was flawlessly reliable, well built, and comfortable, not to mention pretty).

240i certainly carries the GTI spirit of being lively and fun to drive, B58 is a fantastic motor, and can be a quiet and comfortable daily driver (although the suspension is stiffer than the GTI, but feels great).

Golf R AWD is always going to push in hard-driven corners, the Haldex system in the Mk. 7 had a lot of issues and parts replacements over the course of production, and ultimately has been tossed in the new Mk. 8 for a much more advanced system that... well, we'll see how that goers. I never felt the R was worth the premium over the GTI for that reason.

I can't speak to xDrive, but I know it's a fast car. I live in SoCal and I'd never feel a need to have AWD over RWD.
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      09-18-2021, 10:47 PM   #9
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I just asked this question to Reddit earlier today. Not saying I value the opinions on there but was curious what kind of reaction it would get…

https://www.reddit.com/r/whatcarshou...tm_name=iossmf
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      09-18-2021, 11:48 PM   #10
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I never drive the car in manual mode. I would keep the Golf R because it is more practical.
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      09-19-2021, 09:46 AM   #11
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OP,

When I was purchasing a new car in 2018, I had narrowed it down to two cars; the Golf R (New) and M235IX (Used).

As much as the practical side of my brain wanted the Golf (my personal opinion is that a hatchback or wagon is a perfect car), the driving dynamics favor the BMW. Also, the power delivery of the BMW straight 6 (in N55 or B58 form) is hard to beat; the Golf is a fine car but the BMW driving experience and balance beats it every time in AWD form.

The ZF 8 speed works well in manual mode and is extremely fast. I prefer a stick, so I am still struggling with the auto box (after 3 years!), but this is more of a personal problem on my part, rather than the efficacy of the transmission. The ZF 8 speed is brilliant.

Given your location, if you can afford a second set of wheels and tires, I would go with the RWD / Winter Tire combo. It is definitely preferable over the AWD for better vehicle dynamics. I run summer HP tires here in CT and a set of Winter Tires (proper snow rated tires) during the snowy months as I have a very long commute (My M235 is my DD) and the extra margin of safety is important to me here in New England. If you go with the M240 Vert, you will not have any regrets. If you look at my signature, I am a roadster guy as well; I have a Z4M that will get out of the garage today for a ride to the coast for lunch in a few minutes!

My two cents Good luck with your deliberations!
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      09-19-2021, 10:42 AM   #12
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Thanks everyone, great to hear so much feedback. I'm hoping to test drive one soon but there are none nearby, leaning towards RWD with two sets of tires, but would love to drive both. Thinking I might have to wait until the 2 year old switches to a front facing seat, that should give me time to wait for my favorite spec to pop up for sale. I'd prefer a 2018+ and love the cognac interior. So far it seems like a manual trans will be hard to come by (RWD only I know) and it appears they list for a noticeable premium at this time.
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      09-19-2021, 04:36 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unicorn123 View Post
OP,

When I was purchasing a new car in 2018, I had narrowed it down to two cars; the Golf R (New) and M235IX (Used).

As much as the practical side of my brain wanted the Golf (my personal opinion is that a hatchback or wagon is a perfect car), the driving dynamics favor the BMW. Also, the power delivery of the BMW straight 6 (in N55 or B58 form) is hard to beat; the Golf is a fine car but the BMW driving experience and balance beats it every time in AWD form.

The ZF 8 speed works well in manual mode and is extremely fast. I prefer a stick, so I am still struggling with the auto box (after 3 years!), but this is more of a personal problem on my part, rather than the efficacy of the transmission. The ZF 8 speed is brilliant.

Given your location, if you can afford a second set of wheels and tires, I would go with the RWD / Winter Tire combo. It is definitely preferable over the AWD for better vehicle dynamics. I run summer HP tires here in CT and a set of Winter Tires (proper snow rated tires) during the snowy months as I have a very long commute (My M235 is my DD) and the extra margin of safety is important to me here in New England. If you go with the M240 Vert, you will not have any regrets. If you look at my signature, I am a roadster guy as well; I have a Z4M that will get out of the garage today for a ride to the coast for lunch in a few minutes!

My two cents Good luck with your deliberations!
Well this is interesting…I had been exclusively looking at xDrive for the snow. I'm in Chicago which is usually pretty good about getting it plowed but I have to drive around other parts of Illinois a lot for work.

I've never ran winter tires on a car before, they really make that much of a difference?
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      09-19-2021, 06:41 PM   #14
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I've never ran winter tires on a car before, they really make that much of a difference?
I suspect you'd be amazed at how much difference they make. They're designed to remain soft and grippy when the temps are low and it may be icy. Further, their tread patterns are optimized to manage snow and slush. All-seasons do a modest job of all that, and summer tires can't manage it at all.

This is a Car and Driver magazine winter tire comparison that you may find informative: https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...es-for-winter/. Note that in this tire test C&D compares an all-season tire that's been popular with BMW owners to the winter tires being tested and compared. Winter tires are continually being refined, and (I think) all of the tires in this test have been superseded by upgraded versions.

It's too bad it's not easy to test a set out in winter conditions without having to pay for it first. I believe that would convince most owners who have the capacity to pay for and manage two sets of tires.

Note that some tire shops will not only swap the sets for you twice a year, but they'll also store the set that the owner isn't presently using. That's about as convenient as it can get.
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Last edited by dradernh; 09-19-2021 at 06:53 PM..
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      09-19-2021, 07:15 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boyerizm View Post
I've never ran winter tires on a car before, they really make that much of a difference?
I agree with dradernh...

Although X-Drive will provide some additional grip with all-season tires, there is a significant difference between all-season rubber and snow rated rubber. As a former resident of Upstate NY, I can attest to this as I experimented with my old B5 S4 and my Son's A6 2.7T (6M) which had Conti DWS tires, which are excellent in the snow despite not being snow rated. They are an excellent all-season tire. My Dunlop Snow Tires were hands down superior in the snow, even at half tread.

Honestly, in hindsight (others on the forum have heard this before) I regret not getting a 6M M235I. An LSD and a set of snows would be as effective as X-Drive with All-Season tires.

If you want to see the empirical difference, check out the videos on the Tire Rack YouTube. They tested all-season and winter rated tires on the ice rink at Notre Dame. It is very interesting and clearly shows the advantages of snow tires over all-season rubber.

As dradernh points out, the compound on winter tires is also much better in near 0C or sub 0C temperatures. All season tires are a compromise and do not perform as well. As I like to drive my car relatively hard, I prefer having high performance summer rubber to get the most out of the car; however, they get pretty dicey as where I live, the temperatures are ~6-7C cooler than Hartford in the fall and winter, making them lose grip quickly at or near 0C. Fun to slide around, but can make things interesting if you are not prepared...hence he change-over to winter rubber. Snow tires also make driving in the ice and snow much more fun and predictable. This is beside the fact that HP summer rubber in the snow is a potential accident in the making.

I drove my 550I (6M, Rear Drive, Open Diff) with Conti DWS tires for a winter (I bought it as a gap car when I was looking for my current M235IX DD) and only lost it once, very slightly, kissing a curb with my LR rear tire; the tires were pretty worn and I replaced them soon thereafter, as the 550i ate the wide meats in the rear (Mine was an M-Sport with staggered tires), without much help from my right foot . Thankfully, I did no damage, except to my ego... If I had kept it, I would have invested in an additional set of wheels and proper winter tires. I like to slide around but not that much!
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      09-19-2021, 08:35 PM   #16
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I agree with much of the last two posts. Winter tires make a huge difference. Part of the problem that leads some to skip winter tires is that they hear of some all seasons that can get a car moving. But, getting a car moving is the least important function of the three possible, go, turn, stop. Going is a convenience. Turn and stop prevent damage, injury, or worse. Just as sure as the sun will rise tomorrow, winter tires turn and stop significantly better than any possible all season. There are some new "all weather" tires launching that carry the snowflake symbol that one can consider.

Before leaving this topic, one more fine point. XDrive adds zero traction to a vehicle. Traction occurs at the contact patch of the tire. Nothing above the tire generates traction. If the tires are low traction, you can spin two or four wheels all you like...it won't perform well. What XDrive does is to take advantage of the traction available of two more tires when it sends power to them. That's all. That can help get a car moving, but does not help with a turn/stop manuever on snow/ice. You cannot overemphasize the importance of the actual tires...the only part of your car meant to ever be in contact with the outside world. XDrive is not a substitute for tires with traction.
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      09-20-2021, 08:59 AM   #17
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Thanks all for the feedback on running winter tires! Sorry didn’t mean to hijack the thread, but to bring it full circle this more than doubles the available inventory out there. Plus, looks like the xDrive commands about a $6k premium on used cars.

Got two contenders in my sights, a M240i with 69k miles and a M235i with 40k miles. Obviously I’d prefer the B58…but the miles.
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      09-20-2021, 09:07 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boyerizm View Post
Thanks all for the feedback on running winter tires! Sorry didn’t mean to hijack the thread, but to bring it full circle this more than doubles the available inventory out there. Plus, looks like the xDrive commands about a $6k premium on used cars.

Got two contenders in my sights, a M240i with 69k miles and a M235i with 40k miles. Obviously I’d prefer the B58…but the miles.
Final thought...for your winter tires in Chicago, don't go halfway with so-called "performance winter". Aim for the real thing in the winter studless category like Michelin XIce xi3 or Blizzak WS90. Accept that the trade-off for surviving a Chicago winter and to really love "rear wheel" driving during the other three seasons will be to have these tires and driving appropriately for your awful weather conditions. Read more on the tirerack.com website.
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      09-20-2021, 09:15 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueberryPie View Post
Thanks everyone, great to hear so much feedback. I'm hoping to test drive one soon but there are none nearby, leaning towards RWD with two sets of tires, but would love to drive both. Thinking I might have to wait until the 2 year old switches to a front facing seat, that should give me time to wait for my favorite spec to pop up for sale. I'd prefer a 2018+ and love the cognac interior. So far it seems like a manual trans will be hard to come by (RWD only I know) and it appears they list for a noticeable premium at this time.
One thing to note for putting kids in the back is there are no upper car seat anchors on the convertible (or at least my '18 M240 vert doesn't have them). It has the lower latches but no upper anchor to tether to. Luckily my kids have graduated to booster seats but worth noting if your kids are still in full size car seats.

Otherwise, the car is a blast and I love it. Did a ton of research before settling on the M240 vert. It's one of the few convertible options that combines a rear seat + performance + luxury. It can also be pretty fuel efficient if needed (not my concern but it's an option). The ZF8 is the best auto I've ever had (prob not saying much) but it shifts incredibly quick for a non dual clutch. Had multiple people comment on how quick it is and they're shocked when I tell them it's not a dual clutch.

I'm sure you sacrifice some of the performance compared to a non-vert given the extra weight and lack of stiffness with the missing roof but I'm not trying to do any hot laps either so for me it's perfect!
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      09-21-2021, 05:06 AM   #20
BlueberryPie
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Originally Posted by Nbuckmiller View Post
One thing to note for putting kids in the back is there are no upper car seat anchors on the convertible (or at least my '18 M240 vert doesn't have them). It has the lower latches but no upper anchor to tether to. Luckily my kids have graduated to booster seats but worth noting if your kids are still in full size car seats.

Otherwise, the car is a blast and I love it. Did a ton of research before settling on the M240 vert. It's one of the few convertible options that combines a rear seat + performance + luxury. It can also be pretty fuel efficient if needed (not my concern but it's an option). The ZF8 is the best auto I've ever had (prob not saying much) but it shifts incredibly quick for a non dual clutch. Had multiple people comment on how quick it is and they're shocked when I tell them it's not a dual clutch.

I'm sure you sacrifice some of the performance compared to a non-vert given the extra weight and lack of stiffness with the missing roof but I'm not trying to do any hot laps either so for me it's perfect!
Thanks for sharing about the top tether, I totally missed that. I think I can use the seat belts to secure the car seats instead of the latch system, but I'm sure my wife will have something to say about that... The manual has a note about front facing car seats requiring the top latch in Canada, nothing specific about the US though.

Looks like I might need to look into retrofitting a top tether anchor for each seat... ahhh.

Last edited by BlueberryPie; 09-21-2021 at 05:41 AM..
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      09-21-2021, 07:25 AM   #21
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Considering I have gone to NC / TN every year for the last 12 years just to drive the mountain roads in April / May - the last 4 years has been with my M240i, I will tell you that the RWD / 6 Speed is a heck of a lot of fun on the twisties there. I can't speak to winter conditions there, but in NJ I get along just fine with winter tires and my RWD. If the snow is bad and I need to go out, that's what the wife's X1 is for, and it also gets winter tires.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueberryPie View Post
Thanks everyone, great to hear so much feedback. I'm hoping to test drive one soon but there are none nearby, leaning towards RWD with two sets of tires, but would love to drive both. Thinking I might have to wait until the 2 year old switches to a front facing seat, that should give me time to wait for my favorite spec to pop up for sale. I'd prefer a 2018+ and love the cognac interior. So far it seems like a manual trans will be hard to come by (RWD only I know) and it appears they list for a noticeable premium at this time.
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