[matbl]

It's quite funny to read some of the comments. Most of you just don't get it...
For BMW to be able to continue developing M-cars, they have to make money. They can't just make M-cars since they most likely don't cover their own expenses. If they make money on this kind of cars, that can't hurt right?

Ohh. And what's with this obsession about the bmw brand and how it's diluted? Regular people don't care about the brand, we care about the products.

[Dog Face Pony Soldier]

If the Active Tourer is a 2 series, shouldn't the Gran Tourer be a 3 series?

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by matbl

It's quite funny to read some of the comments. Most of you just don't get it...
For BMW to be able to continue developing M-cars, they have to make money. They can't just make M-cars since they most likely don't cover their own expenses. If they make money on this kind of cars, that can't hurt right?

Ohh. And what's with this obsession about the bmw brand and how it's diluted? Regular people don't care about the brand, we care about the products.

I agree.

[thurston]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

Except the 7 series has some logical connection to the company's core values, even if those (like the car itself) have been stretched over time.

But this? Doesn't seem to fit in any of those values...FWD, not especially attractive, and not sporty looking/likely driving to be found. We all saw how it worked out for GM when they tried to be good at everything...aka you have a company that produced Hummers and Corvettes and minivans at the same time - which equated to no clear company direction or drand identity, no clear association between the different offerings, and not especially good at anything as a result.

At one time, you could get in any BMW and feel those core values coming through - regardless of where you were in the lineup. RWD. Sporty. Excellent chassis. Racing pedigree. Excellent handling, etc., etc. And THAT is what created the BMW brand and much of the loyalty associated with it. Everytime the company branches out into a new segment that is completely disassociated with what made them great, a little more of that is lost. At some point, you end up chasing profits instead of building the best cars you can that align with your brand's identity.

We buy a lot of F-150s and RVs in this country too - are those the next segments BMW will chase? Getting off the soapbox now...

This exactly. Thank you.

It would be great to see a company not place profit above everything else. Maybe I'm not a savvy businessman, but I'm the type of person who would let his company go under before selling out and flooding the lineup with vehicles that aren't consistent with its inherent values.

I think there's a point when you have to say, "F*ck you, marketing department. we're going to continue making the vehicles that we envision because we stand for something that won't be compromised. And if the company tanks, then so be it."

I don't think that it would tank though. I feel like there are enough enthusiasts out there that understand and appreciate BMW's identity. And if you need more profit to inject into R&D for future vehicles, maybe cut down the amount of vehicles you actually have in your lineup and do anything else BUT sell out and cater to conservative demographics that are completely out of line with what you stand for.

[5against8]

I'm usually the one to defend BMWs decisions, but.... ugh. The fact that the term "Grand Tourer" is associated with this car is disgusting.

[chaswyck1]

While I don't follow the Porsche boards, I'm sure the same gasps of horror happened when the Cayenne was announced. "Oh My God! A Porsche SUV!" I don't think it's the body style necessarily that's the issue here. If BMW produces SUV's or SAV's that have close to the sporty driving characteristics of other cars in their line up, I don't think there would be quite the furor over these "people haulers". Granted, none of us in the States has driven the 2 Series Gran Tourer, but I don't believe FWD is going to produce those driving characteristics and the price points at which these cars will have to be offered to compete in the markets they're intended for will preclude the kind of suspension components that are necessary to achieve those driving characteristics. I understand what they're trying to do, but the GM anology is not all that far off base. Can or should BMW try to be everything to everybody? Seriously, if this strategy is projected out five years or so, is a BMW pick up truck out of the question? I guess as long as they keep producing a few cars like the 2 Series coupe we should be satisfied with that and leave the rest of the line up to people who are just buying the roundel.

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by Majec9-7

AND THE CROWDS GO MILD!

No, but seriously this isn't the worst that can (or will) happen. If this won't sell it will be forgotten and discontinued.

For example seeing the low sales numbers for 5GT we can safely assume there won't be a next iteration.

I'm more sad about FWD in next 1 and 2 series as well as X1 and the loss of 6 cylinder offered in those cars.

The Active Tourer is selling exceptionally well in Europe. This model adds the extra flexibility that other customers would need. And the lure of a BMW in this segment has been proved in the Active Tourer which has appealed to existing BMW and new customers alike who are not concerned about FWD but mainly emissions and flexibility. As expected additional BMW owners have bought Active Tourer as the secondary BMW in a typical BMW household. Gran Tourer will be considered especially with those that need extra versatility.

The 5er GT is an anomaly , people like to think it has failed but its mission was to provide 10% of annual total 5er sales which it meets and has exceeded.
5er GT is a low volume vehicle but profitable because it is based on an existing matrix. There will be a new G36 5er Gran Turismo model but will address some issues with the current model. It has proven popular in many markets to justify a new model.

Moving to FWD addresses a serious hindrance for BMW in the compact segment in that competitors that offer more flexibility and space have an advantage to new customers especially. It also allows higher profit margins for the MINI in which the original 3dr made its profit from optional equipment and accessories.
Now MINI is returning full return with the UKL joint architecture.

[bimmerjph]

Originally Posted by dd1981

This image sums it all up..

Yeah, no one is going to want to be friends with a kid whose parents have a FWD BMW.

[cgpublic]

What's the rumpus?

In the blink of an eye, 'brown' engines will be out, electric will be in, and self-driving autonomous cars will represent a sizable % of vehicles on the road. No one is going to give two cents about RWD and manual transmissions, except for those people who are living in the past.

Furthermore, in my experience Europe has a different perspective than here in the US when it comes to car brands, in that most people put life, family and friends first; possessions and status symbols have their place, it's just not as much of class differentiator as here in the US. Most of the taxis in Germany are MB, and the police drive BMW.

[335BOY]

Originally Posted by tvieso

This exactly. Thank you.

It would be great to see a company not place profit above everything else. Maybe I'm not a savvy businessman, but I'm the type of person who would let his company go under before selling out and flooding the lineup with vehicles that aren't consistent with its inherent values.

I think there's a point when you have to say, "F*ck you, marketing department. we're going to continue making the vehicles that we envision because we stand for something that won't be compromised. And if the company tanks, then so be it."

I don't think that it would tank though. I feel like there are enough enthusiasts out there that understand and appreciate BMW's identity. And if you need more profit to inject into R&D for future vehicles, maybe cut down the amount of vehicles you actually have in your lineup and do anything else BUT sell out and cater to conservative demographics that are completely out of line with what you stand for.

Car enthusiasts probably make up a tiny percentage of BMWs customer base. Counting on enthusiasts to support BMW won't work. This forum contains about 99% enthusiasts but is by no means representative of their average customer. My 77 year old Mother drives a 128. Shes not on here. Not saying that this little van is right or wrong but they are trying to be #1 in sales and I guess they think this will help. I agree that each little move like this erodes the brand.

[DCG]

Originally Posted by crawfordbay

This thing is an insult to the entire BMW brand.

+1

The exterior designers and suits should all be fired!

If they, meaning BMW Group are going to come up with a premium or even an economic concept the dam thing needs to look good. This 'thing' just looks totally pathetic !!! And what is up with that totally cheesy door light??? Unreal!

Just get a 3 Series Wagon. BMW should produce an 3 Series M Wagon with xDrive!

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by tvieso

This exactly. Thank you.

It would be great to see a company not place profit above everything else. Maybe I'm not a savvy businessman, but I'm the type of person who would let his company go under before selling out and flooding the lineup with vehicles that aren't consistent with its inherent values.

I think there's a point when you have to say, "F*ck you, marketing department. we're going to continue making the vehicles that we envision because we stand for something that won't be compromised. And if the company tanks, then so be it."

I don't think that it would tank though. I feel like there are enough enthusiasts out there that understand and appreciate BMW's identity. And if you need more profit to inject into R&D for future vehicles, maybe cut down the amount of vehicles you actually have in your lineup and do anything else BUT sell out and cater to conservative demographics that are completely out of line with what you stand for.

I think there is a point where WE the Enthusiasts have to accept that the world has changed. BMWs customer base has changed. Technology has changed. Emissions requirements have changed. BMWs mission statement and " core values " likely have changed, and the " enthusiast" that doesn't change , ends up posting in a thread about a vehicle that they don't want.

Instead of lamenting what Bmw doesn't do and trying to hold the company to a standard it has never tried to uphold. ( Bmw has NEVER built a vehicle that is a dedicated sports car like certain porsche models )

It makes absolutely zero sense for BMW to NOT build vehicles that their customers want. And saying that they have " lost their way" on a forum certainly doesn't make it so.


BMW is a car company that is doing better and better , not worse. All this kvetching about where the company will ( along with predictions it will suddenly go from the most success ever and straight into the toilet ) go is really inane. They are making money. I hope they make as much money as possible so that they are around to build the next M car that I want.

Last I checked, the M3/m4 were just announced , an M2 is coming , as well as another sports car in a joint venture. I'll be happy to buy any of those. And my neighbor might just pick up a 2 series gran tourer. Let's not everyone go out and shoot the neighbors to keep BMW from " diluting the brand "

[Matski]

Originally Posted by DCG

Just get a 3 Series Wagon.

Less practical in everyway?

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by bimmerjph

Yeah, no one is going to want to be friends with a kid whose parents have a FWD BMW.

LOL

I have a friend that owns a 911 GT3 say that about the cayman GT4 when I commented that it makes the 911 nearly superfluous.

[Matski]

Originally Posted by boramkiv

Basketballer Mercedes Meme

I don't get the reference, but just so you know...

This car, I'm about to post a picture of, is why the 2AT/GT exist...
















Deal with it.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by Majec9-7

AND THE CROWDS GO MILD!

No, but seriously this isn't the worst that can (or will) happen. If this won't sell it will be forgotten and discontinued.

For example seeing the low sales numbers for 5GT we can safely assume there won't be a next iteration.

I'm more sad about FWD in next 1 and 2 series as well as X1 and the loss of 6 cylinder offered in those cars.

Uh-Oh. Didn't you learn when you were a kid not to ASS-u-ME?

[ND40oz]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Its the perfect family solution for those that cannot stretch financially to a Seven-Seat X5.

I'd think of it more for the family that actually wants usable 3rd row, something the X5 has never had. You guys need to give up on the 3rd row F15 and make a proper 3 row SUV or else you're going to keep losing customers to Audi and MB.

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by matbl

It's quite funny to read some of the comments. Most of you just don't get it...
For BMW to be able to continue developing M-cars, they have to make money. They can't just make M-cars since they most likely don't cover their own expenses. If they make money on this kind of cars, that can't hurt right?

Ohh. And what's with this obsession about the bmw brand and how it's diluted? Regular people don't care about the brand, we care about the products.

Excuse me, but from my knowledge BMW had M cars before they even build an X vehicle, and was capable of developing M-cars without a FWD van.

And the discussion with these different abnormalities covering the costs of the M cars is a nonsense.
Look around, there are companies that stick with their philosophy and they are doing just fine. And, their name it is truly associated with a certain niche.

1 series, 3 series, 5 series, 7 series, PROPERLY BUILT and RELIABLE (!) can provide enough bread to feed the M division. If a car is well known for it's reliability and quality, it will always sell no matter what.

And is not truly about the van itself as it is about the perception of the brand. Even the generic people car brands developed a luxury niche, just to provide a certain perception for the buyers. BMW is doing the opposite, offering that badge for some cheap vehicles. Will you buy a 100.000 Toyota?
Have a look at the Phaeton, you will see how good it did.
The problem with BMW is that is running for cheap customers, ignoring the luxury clientele, which does have a certain level of image perception.

[SCOTT26]

Recently someone asked if BMW do read forums in regards to many topics regarding vehicles and future developments and of course they do.
Its amusing that only a select group of enthusiasts are critiquing this car whilst others understand the need for such a vehicle and although it is something they would not drive but give the whole announcement silence but respect for what it eventually means for them.
Whilst some vent the end is nigh when it is far , far from the truth. You have to consider that in the eyes of BMW that minority becomes the majority that it embarrasses the enthusiast community period because these opinions become the preferred word of a select few that think they speak for many.

You only have to look at the past weekend when such criticism aimed at a music artist has not only showed this person to be generally a tool as you say?
But opened the other nominated artist for severe criticism and embarrassment when the winning artist can produce, write and play all the instruments as well as sing when it took the other artist up to 62 people to produce their album.

Why can't you respect that although it is not for you or aimed at you that there are customers who are looking for such a vehicle , and do not care about the things enthusiasts take for granted such as FWD.
Businesses not only need to keep existing customers interested but they have to reach out to new customers also, that is the purpose of the Active and Gran Tourer. It opens BMW to a profitable and popular segment.
You might despise the decision but if these vehicles find customers as the Active Tourer is proving then you should respect that someone is funding your next models development.

[Matski]

Originally Posted by Tracus

1 series, 3 series, 5 series, 7 series, PROPERLY BUILT and RELIABLE (!) can provide enough bread to feed the M division. If a car is well known for it's reliability and quality, it will always sell no matter what.

LOL don't you remember the cries of brand dilution and racing down market when the 1 series was introduced?

Besides that, it's not really about feeding M. It's about feeding shareholders and investors. Take away the rest of the models, sales will fall, market share will shrink, revenues will fall and profits will drop... when this happens, your quality and reliability will have to give way to maintaining profits and share price in order to stop competitors slowly investing in, and taking over BMW... You want BMW to be another 99.1% subisidiary of VW Group like Audi is? Or do you want it to be more like Mercedes.... oh wait, they've been making FWD cars like this for years.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Recently someone asked if BMW do read forums in regards to many topics regarding vehicles and future developments and of course they do.
Its amusing that only a select group of enthusiasts are critiquing this car whilst others understand the need for such a vehicle and although it is something they would not drive but give the whole announcement silence but respect for what it eventually means for them.
Whilst some vent the end is nigh when it is far , far from the truth. You have to consider that in the eyes of BMW that minority becomes the majority that it embarrasses the enthusiast community period because these opinions become the preferred word of a select few that think they speak for many.

You only have to look at the past weekend when such criticism aimed at a music artist has not only showed this person to be generally a tool as you say?
But opened the other nominated artist for severe criticism and embarrassment when the winning artist can produce, write and play all the instruments as well as sing when it took the other artist up to 62 people to produce their album.

Why can't you respect that although it is not for you or aimed at you that there are customers who are looking for such a vehicle , and do not care about the things enthusiasts take for granted such as FWD.
Businesses not only need to keep existing customers interested but they have to reach out to new customers also, that is the purpose of the Active and Gran Tourer. It opens BMW to a profitable and popular segment.
You might despise the decision but if these vehicles find customers as the Active Tourer is proving then you should respect that someone is funding your next models development.

Here's the difference - that segment of new customers that are exposed to BMW with a car like this, do you think that the experience will be so good and so exciting that they will stay with the brand for years down the road? And some day become part of the bread and butter? I am not being facetious - I am seriously asking?

Because I am willing to bet that your bread and butter is made up of repeat customers - aka, those who became hooked on the brand because it did something they considered special over and over and over - regardless of what BMW they picked the next time.

For instance, I am in my 5th BMW and am seriously looking elsewhere for the first time since 2007. Is that because of the 2 series van? Not directly, no - but the inherent traits that made the choice easy in the past have started to erode for me. The experience itself is becoming less special over time. And the time, money, and effort spent on cars like this by BMW takes time, money, and effort away from honing the company's identity in a good way. And THAT should matter to someone, no matter how good sales are at the moment. Because it will always be the repeat customers that keep the ship afloat.

Perhaps this car will create that excitment for others, and they will find themselves in multiple BMWs over a long period of time. But it doesn't seem likely to me.

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

You have to consider that in the eyes of BMW that minority becomes the majority that it embarrasses the enthusiast community period because these opinions become the preferred word of a select few that think they speak for many.

Businesses not only need to keep existing customers interested but they have to reach out to new customers also....

If you are manipulating and emulating the criticism in a way you like it, it doesn't mean that it represents the truth.

You are missing the point in here:
1. So far BMW will likely loose the EXISTING customers because:
- they are not receptive to their requests. Slip Diff, LED, more quality interior, etc.
- The vehicles reliability did not increased, it almost become a slogan that " you always lease a BMW or never own a BMW outside of Warranty". That is a very big old issue right there.
- They start expanding instead of fixing what does not work and address all the concerns
- their reputation goes down the hill slowly; how many engines won in the past and how many last year?
- the quality of the build and the materials used in some vehicles are not justified for the price and their claim

2. There are EXISTING CUSTOMERS IN HERE that express their opinion because THEY CARE.
I have seen in the past as well, all your poor explanation how these cars will help funding the better cars.
So far, it seems that the funds were not enough because the M cars are not flawless, nor where they should be.

I hope this FWD van will fix that.

Okay, make some trucks too, but make sure that all your products are good and flawless. So far, none of them are that good and if I am looking carefully on the customers reviews, BMW doesn't really shine doesn't?

What about the dealership that right now are not able to address any issue properly (issues will not arise if the car will perfect right?) for the customers who bought really expensive vehicles? Can you imagine how a van owner will be treated?
They didn't have in stock a RFT for my car. ONE TIRE! So I switched to non RFT just to see them less.

Nonetheless, you are still missing the identity point: directly or indirectly many BMW owners identify themselves with a certain niche in the automobile owners list. There is a certain level of pride and image that is washed away, and many don't like that. You can build the car of the century, and the enthusiast may acknowledge it. Many will not accept the new direction BMW is going.

Take it or leave it.