[tripitz]

After swapping in my winter tires, it has become painfully obvious how bad the steering feel is on my 2 series. Even with brand new PS4 summer tires on, the steering is vague and the car easily wanders if I look away for even a split second. My car is properly aligned and tracks straight.

What are the options to fixing the steering feel on this car? I've started to investigate swapping in M2/3 parts as one option. It seems like that will be a very expensive and complicated process as pretty much everything is changed in terms of stance, etc... I plan on keeping the car a very long time so I'm not sure I mind a decent investment in terms of fixing this.

What other options are there? I'm fine with the overall handling/suspension setup for now. I'm just tired of the vagueness of the steering wheel.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by tripitz

After swapping in my winter tires, it has become painfully obvious how bad the steering feel is on my 2 series. Even with brand new PS4 summer tires on, the steering is vague and the car easily wanders if I look away for even a split second. My car is properly aligned and tracks straight.

What are the options to fixing the steering feel on this car? I've started to investigate swapping in M2/3 parts as one option. It seems like that will be a very expensive and complicated process as pretty much everything is changed in terms of stance, etc... I plan on keeping the car a very long time so I'm not sure I mind a decent investment in terms of fixing this.

What other options are there? I'm fine with the overall handling/suspension setup for now. I'm just tired of the vagueness of the steering wheel.

https://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-5...m-upgrade-kit/

Best single mod I've done and sharpened/tightened the steering response and handling by inducing +1 degree of negative camber for alignment spec. Nothing else to do beyond this kit....my dealer did the install.

[tripitz]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

https://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-5...m-upgrade-kit/

Best single mod I've done and sharpened/tightened the steering response and handling by inducing +1 degree of negative camber for alignment spec. Nothing else to do beyond this kit....my dealer did the install.

Did it actually improve the steering FEEL coming through the steering rack to the wheel or did it just make the car more responsive? I may put camber plates on as well as the alignment could use some work and my front right is slightly out of spec (possibly tweaked?). I really want to improve the feedback the car provides the driver.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by tripitz

Did it actually improve the steering FEEL coming through the steering rack to the wheel or did it just make the car more responsive? I may put camber plates on as well as the alignment could use some work and my front right is slightly out of spec (possibly tweaked?). I really want to improve the feedback the car provides the driver.

This really gets into subtle distinctions and weeding out the placebo effect. Having said that, I think it did, although not day-and-night. I think the change in the geometry of the contact patch improved the sense of what the tire is doing back through the wheel...less numb. But, YMMV and in any case the difference is one the owner would notice, but others might not. However, in any event, the overall difference in the fun factor was more than worth it.

[Kayevman]

Originally Posted by tripitz

After swapping in my winter tires, it has become painfully obvious how bad the steering feel is on my 2 series. Even with brand new PS4 summer tires on, the steering is vague and the car easily wanders if I look away for even a split second. My car is properly aligned and tracks straight.

What are the options to fixing the steering feel on this car? I've started to investigate swapping in M2/3 parts as one option. It seems like that will be a very expensive and complicated process as pretty much everything is changed in terms of stance, etc... I plan on keeping the car a very long time so I'm not sure I mind a decent investment in terms of fixing this.

What other options are there? I'm fine with the overall handling/suspension setup for now. I'm just tired of the vagueness of the steering wheel.

Mine is a 2018 M240 x drive convertible. Out of the box (new), it would pull to the right from the crown of the road. I'm not sure what your car is doing—you describe it as both wandering and tracking straight. The dealer replaced the control arm (I think just on the left) to change the camber. Totally fine after that. The feel isn't better but I'm not constantly aware of the steering and the position of the wheel.

[EE60]

I heard that installing monoballs for control arms and thrust arms would be a big improvement. Have you heard this? Might this be a better upgrade with or without the M control arms and thrust arms?

[CP911]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

This really gets into subtle distinctions and weeding out the placebo effect. Having said that, I think it did, although not day-and-night. I think the change in the geometry of the contact patch improved the sense of what the tire is doing back through the wheel...less numb. But, YMMV and in any case the difference is one the owner would notice, but others might not. However, in any event, the overall difference in the fun factor was more than worth it.

I had this same general effect happen to me when I went to wider BBS wheels with wider PS4S tires. OP also says switching to winter tires made it "more obvious." I think you are on to something as far as contact patch with the road. It just has to affect the forces acting up through the suspension geometry and the steering rack, so it would make sense.

[tripitz]

Thanks for all of the comments.

To clarify, I find that the feedback the car provides is very muted. This is exacerbated by the winter tires, which naturally are going to be spongy. If I'm not paying attention, the car can wander without any noticeable feedback. For example, I could look down at the radio and the car will not provide feedback indicating that perhaps it is no longer going perfectly straight.

My car was recently aligned. It drives straight as an arrow. It's just the feedback that's missing that I want to improve. Does that make more sense?

[albertw]

It seems that these cars vary in how much feedback one gets at very small steering angles. The other thread on lack of self-centering is about the same thing, I think. Since the OP complained about lack of feedback even on PS4 summer tires, the issue seems to go beyond tires.

My limited understanding of suspension has most of the self-centering coming from the distance between the center of the contact patch and the point at which the extended steering axis touches the road. On motorcycles it's called trail (because the contact patch is behind the steering axis), and I've seen it called that on cars as well. On cars the amount of trail is set by the caster angle.

What I'm wondering is whether there is a range of acceptable caster. If so, possibly the cars with the least self-centering happen to have the caster for both wheels set at the end of the acceptable range that gives the smallest trail. Perhaps setting it to the opposite end of the acceptable range would improve on-center steering feedback.

[aerobod]

On a car, the SAI (Steering Axis Inclination) has as much, if not more effect on steering weight and self centring than the caster angle. This is the lateral angle from the strut pivot point or top ball joint through the bottom ball joint. Where this line hits the ground compared with the centre of the tyre contact patch defines the steering scrub radius. Camber changes will affect the SAI and scrub radius, wheel offset changes will only affect the scrub radius. Both will have some effect on steering weight, feel and self-centring.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by aerobod

On a car, the SAI (Steering Axis Inclination) has as much, if not more effect on steering weight and self centring than the caster angle. This is the lateral angle from the strut pivot point or top ball joint through the bottom ball joint. Where this line hits the ground compared with the centre of the tyre contact patch defines the steering scrub radius. Camber changes will affect the SAI and scrub radius, wheel offset changes will only affect the scrub radius. Both will have some effect on steering weight, feel and self-centring.

...thus the perceived benefit of the M2/3/4 lower control arms, I presume? I don't know as much about the geometry as do you, but I am extremely pleased with the result of this seemingly simple part swap. This should be part of the THP or any MSport package, IMHO.

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

...thus the perceived benefit of the M2/3/4 lower control arms, I presume? I don't know as much about the geometry as do you, but I am extremely pleased with the result of this seemingly simple part swap. This should be part of the THP or any MSport package, IMHO.

Yes, SAI will increase with the SAI line contact point with the ground moving out, increasing the scrub radius. There will also be an increase in steering weight and self-centring with a higher SAI, as the vehicle is lifted a bit more as the wheel is turned.

[tripitz]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

...thus the perceived benefit of the M2/3/4 lower control arms, I presume? I don't know as much about the geometry as do you, but I am extremely pleased with the result of this seemingly simple part swap. This should be part of the THP or any MSport package, IMHO.

I also believe this is a no-brainer upgrade. I will probably do it in the next few weeks/months at a minimum.

I'm wondering if the steering rack itself is also part of the problem. For reference, I have an E36 M3 race car and a C63S, both of which obviously provide a lot more feedback. Sadly, even my SUV provides more steering feel/confidence than the 2 does. I wonder what other M2 bits can be moved over to my 2.

I'm also looking at camber plates (my local shop has a set of used ones available) to go with the upgraded camber plates. Also willing to look at any up-rated bushings that may help. I'm not looking to turn this car into a track car (yet!) so I want to keep the comfort level where it is at (Currently very good).

My buddy just suggested to upgrade to an M2, except there is a 30-32k price delta between my car and a used 2017 M2.

[tripitz]

Has anyone installed an M2 rack in their non-M? I wonder if that will work electronically and the other pieces that will need to be changed (knuckles? tie rods?)

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by tripitz

...I want to keep the comfort level where it is at (Currently very good).

My buddy just suggested to upgrade to an M2,

I believe you will find these two statements to be mutually exclusive.

[tripitz]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

I believe you will find these two statements to be mutually exclusive.

Hahah.. exactly. At some point I'll turn the 2 into a track car... Right now it is a DD and I want to have a bit more enjoyment out of driving it. The lack of steering feel is bothering me a lot.

Just looked.. doesn't look like there is an M235r rack upgrade offered. M2 rack is expensive... still, for 30k less than an M2, there is a lot one can do.

[XutvJet]

Perhaps I'm reading this wrong, but are you saying the steering feel really went to crap once you installed winter tires? If so, why is this so surprising and why compare it to one of your race cars? I run MPSS tires in the warm months and winter performance Alpin PA4s in the winter. There is a big difference in steering response and feel between the two types of tires and that really shouldn't be a surprise at all.

You can add camber plates and the M2/M3/M4 control arms and tension rods, but it's not really going to greatly improve "feel". If feel to you means sensing every little bump, undulation, tire scrub, and pull through the wheel, you're not going to get it with those mods or any mod for that matter. You'll get more NVH and a more direct feel, but that's about it.

Electric steering simply can't deliver the same sensory involvement as a good hydraulic rack. With that said, you should go drive some other cars with electric steering and you'll see that most are far worse than what you get on the 2 series when running summer tires. The 2 series is definitely up the upper range of the better electric steering racks out there. It's not the best, but it's far from terrible. The M235r uses the same rack as the M235. I have no issues understanding what the front axle is doing and where it's at under hard driving.

If you plan on tracking the car a lot, you really should just trade up to a used N55 M2. It has the M3/M4 passive suspension parts, M3/M4 front and rear subframes, solid rear subframe mounts, a true eLSD, wider track, and chassis stiffening enhancements. It has better steering feel than the M235 due to the M3/M4 suspension parts, wider track, wider wheels and tires, more camber, etc. You can easily add coilovers as well without having to deal with M235's adaptive shock system plus you can easily add wider front and rear wheels/tires. It's just a better track car out of the box plus delivering great street manners and comfort. You'll spend a lot on an M235 trying to get it to feel, drive, and be as well sorted as the M2.

[albertw]

Originally Posted by aerobod

On a car, the SAI (Steering Axis Inclination) has as much, if not more effect on steering weight and self centring than the caster angle. This is the lateral angle from the strut pivot point or top ball joint through the bottom ball joint. Where this line hits the ground compared with the centre of the tyre contact patch defines the steering scrub radius. Camber changes will affect the SAI and scrub radius, wheel offset changes will only affect the scrub radius. Both will have some effect on steering weight, feel and self-centring.

That's an excellent description!

I can see how this could be a large effect at substantial steering deflections. Thus it could be a large part of the steering feedback as the traction limit is approached. That, to me, is by far the most important issue regarding steering feel.

However, this thread is about steering feel just off-centre. I have trouble seeing an appreciable change in scrub radius for the kind of inadvertent deflection the OP says he can't detect through the wheel- a degree or two while looking down at the screen. I'm open to more education!

[MarcoZandrini]

Originally Posted by aerobod

On a car, the SAI (Steering Axis Inclination) has as much, if not more effect on steering weight and self centring than the caster angle. This is the lateral angle from the strut pivot point or top ball joint through the bottom ball joint. Where this line hits the ground compared with the centre of the tyre contact patch defines the steering scrub radius. Camber changes will affect the SAI and scrub radius, wheel offset changes will only affect the scrub radius. Both will have some effect on steering weight, feel and self-centring.

Isn't this caster?

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by MarcoZandrini

Isn't this caster?

Caster is the offset of the top pivot point of the suspension relative to the bottom pivot point in the longitudinal direction. For stable steering that self-centres, the line through the strut pivot or top balljoint and the bottom balljoint will hit the ground in front of the tyre contact patch, usually at an angle of about 7 degrees compared with a vertical line. The SAI is the lateral angle through the same pivots compared with a vertical line, usually about 14 degrees.

Both SAI and caster have an effect on steering feel, weight and self-centring, but in slightly different ways.

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by tripitz

At some point I'll turn the 2 into a track car... Right now it is a DD and I want to have a bit more enjoyment out of driving it. The lack of steering feel is bothering me a lot.

I wonder if you're going to be able to change the steering feel to any appreciable extent.

I too have owned an E36 M3 race car, one that had a no-expense-spared professional build. The E36 was extremely responsive to throttle and steering inputs - feedback was precise and instantaneous. Not wanting an M2, I spent $14K on a basic street/track car build for the M240i (https://www.2addicts.com/forums/show....php?t=1532418). Even with that work done, the M240i (which I like a lot and intend to keep for many years), is dull in comparison to the E36 when driven on the track. The 725# weight difference made that a given.

The M240i's steering feel continues to be what it was pre-build, which is what I expected. I accept it and have had to be satisfied with the fact that it's both predictable and goes where I point it. I haven't found it to be an issue on the track; instead, it's just...different.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by dradernh

The M240i's steering feel continues to be what it was pre-build, which is what I expected. I accept it and have had to be satisfied with the fact that it's both predictable and goes where I point it. I haven't found it to be an issue on the track; instead, it's just...different.

Exactly. Chris Harris said generally the same thing about the 911 (992) electric steering and present day electric steering as a whole. The guy is a professional race car driver too.