[AlexGT]

Originally Posted by MrBallooKnot

Those are the same as I installed. The "C2400Xs" was simply the plural of "C2400X". :-)

I found the Focals to be a more rounded sound in the studio whereas the JLs were more pronounced in the high and low ranges. That was in the studio though...once in the car, things generally change. I'm happy with them.

Thanks a lot for replying back man!

[akuan99]

Originally Posted by gtaphile

I am still trying to confirm if a 4 inch speaker, with spacer if needed, will fit in the center channel slot for M235i


Thanks gents.

The problem is not only speaker mounting depth, there is limited space to accomodate large magnet structure like those from most aftermarket 4" speakers.
One option is to install a true midrange driver but instally a DSP will become a must option as this will likely throw off tonal balance.

[Viffermike]

Hyperzulu is correct: the stock speakers will be louder because its ohm rating is half (2 ohms) what most aftermarket speakers run at (4 ohms). That generally means that it'll take 50-75 percent more power (in watts) to make a 4-ohm speaker emit the same full-range volume as a 2-ohm speaker.

But that's not the only thing to consider. Sensitivity/efficiency, measured in db, is also important -- even more so in some cases. A speaker is rated for efficiency by how loud they are (generally at 1K Hz) at a distance of 1 meter from the center of the cone when 1 watt of power is fed to it. Each 3db step upward in sensitivity means twice the volume at that standard -- and vice versa. The Focal ISCs (85.6 db) are slightly more sensitive than the JL Audio C2s (84.5 db), but another sensitivity measure -- loudness in db with a standardized voltage fed to the speaker (2.83 volts) -- shows that the Focals are nearly twice as loud as the JL Audios (90.3 db vs 87.5 db). So: the Focals are actually substantially louder than the JL Audios.

Keep in mind that these measurements are taken at 1K Hz; speakers with a larger cone will generally be more efficient (i.e., 'move more air') at lower frequencies, etc. This is a non-factor for us since we're talking 4" cones, though; speaker designers takes this into account by increasing cone excursion distance, magnet strength, rubber surround stiffness, and voice coil diameter, among many, many other factors. This is partially why home stereo speakers with 5-inch bass drivers can thump like a bass cab with a 12-incher in it. It's all about moving air.

Subs, however, are a whole 'nutha ballgame ...

[hyperzulu]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

Subs, however, are a whole 'nutha ballgame ...

Yes, I've decided to put these under my seats to take the guesswork out.



Maybe I should invert them and make a hovercraft!!!

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by hyperzulu

Yes, I've decided to put these under my seats to take the guesswork out.

Maybe I should invert them and make a hovercraft!!!

Boom!

(Damn: there's room under the seat for those?!?!)

You gonna build an enclosure for those, hyperzulu? Power them with a discrete amp? How involved do you anticipate the install to be?

[hyperzulu]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

Boom!

(Damn: there's room under the seat for those?!?!)

You gonna build an enclosure for those, hyperzulu? Power them with a discrete amp? How involved do you anticipate the install to be?

Nah. I wish sometimes. I still have one in my closet waiting to take on home theater duties. Back when I had a Scion tC I had one of these in an mdf enclosure I made. It was a 2.2 cubic foot ported box tuned to about 25hz being fed 1200 watts. It was a monster though. Box and speaker alone added about 120lbs.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by hyperzulu

Nah. I wish sometimes. I still have one in my closet waiting to take on home theater duties. Back when I had a Scion tC I had one of these in an mdf enclosure I made. It was a 2.2 cubic foot ported box tuned to about 25hz being fed 1200 watts. It was a monster though. Box and speaker alone added about 120lbs.

At 1,200 watts I hope it was! Criminy ... Yeah, the weight went up, but the Horsepower rating should have, too, with that much thump ...

My home theater/music sub is a Velodyne MicroVee: 500 watts, 8-inch driver and two matched passive radiators in a sealed extruded aluminum cube. Tightest sub for music I've ever heard. Bigger is not always better ...

[AlexGT]

Originally Posted by hyperzulu

Yes, I've decided to put these under my seats to take the guesswork out.


Maybe I should invert them and make a hovercraft!!!

Share with us the results

[gtaphile]

Originally Posted by akuan99

The problem is not only speaker mounting depth, there is limited space to accomodate large magnet structure like those from most aftermarket 4" speakers.
One option is to install a true midrange driver but instally a DSP will become a must option as this will likely throw off tonal balance.

Thanks akuan99,

I am going with Marconi 4to6 DSP so that will be taken care of.

Any ideas for a speaker that might fit and with a similar tonal balance? The door speakers are Focal PC 100's.

[DanG]

I decided that I had too much volume coming from my front speaker. I had Car Toys confirm that the front speaker was over powering the doors and back. As had been explained before, it was because the center speaker is 2 ohms while the rest of the system has 4 ohm speakers.

We tried to replace the center speaker but couldn't find a speaker that would fit in the tapered plastic cone in the dash. They wanted $250 to modify the dash to fit any speaker but preferred to put in a Focal 100 to match the other speakers.

I decided it wasn't worth that much to me, so I just left the center speaker out.

We were all amazed how much clearer the sound now is. It also has direction instead of being over powered from the front.

I couldn't be happier.

[wjones14]

Originally Posted by DanG

I decided it wasn't worth that much to me, so I just left the center speaker out.

We were all amazed how much clearer the sound now is. It also has direction instead of being over powered from the front.

I couldn't be happier.

So to sum up, with no cutting or modification, you replace the door and rear deck speakers with Focal ISC 100, disconnect the front center channel, and it's like 100% improvement? Sound like the way to go.

[hyperzulu]

Originally Posted by wjones14

So to sum up, with no cutting or modification, you replace the door and rear deck speakers with Focal ISC 100, disconnect the front center channel, and it's like 100% improvement? Sound like the way to go.

Might be hard not to cut without a custom connector.

Here is a pic I took...the blue piece is what connects to the stock speakers and it is oddly shaped.

[huma]

I found out Technic sells the speaker connectors/harness. You guys could look into that if you don't want to mess with the stock wiring for aftermarket speakers.

I myself am going to place an order with him soon once I figure out everything I need. What do you guys think about this set up?

XD600/6V2 - Perfect because Techics harness eliminates the center speaker
Focal ISC 100 or 100AC (which is better?) x2 pairs
Subs - Still undecided ?? I really want the focal subs, but not at $400/each.

Technics amp harness, speaker connectors and sub-woofer connectors. PnP everything.

[gtaphile]

I am still concerned that without a center speaker the image is not full and in front of the driver. There are many that have chimed in on that exact point.

I am going to open up the center grill and measure - maybe a shallow mount midrange only speaker might fit to throw up a decent image. With DSP it can smooth out the overall front presentation between L,C, R.

[DanG]

Originally Posted by gtaphile

I am still concerned that without a center speaker the image is not full and in front of the driver. There are many that have chimed in on that exact point.

I am going to open up the center grill and measure - maybe a shallow mount midrange only speaker might fit to throw up a decent image. With DSP it can smooth out the overall front presentation between L,C, R.

The problem with the center speaker is that it sits in a plastic cone the exact size of the speaker. With any after market speaker, the magnet is too large to fit in the cone.

[DanG]

Originally Posted by wjones14

So to sum up, with no cutting or modification, you replace the door and rear deck speakers with Focal ISC 100, disconnect the front center channel, and it's like 100% improvement? Sound like the way to go.

You do have to cut the wires and splice in the Focal connectors. It is no big deal.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by huma

XD600/6V2 - Perfect because Techics harness eliminates the center speaker
Focal ISC 100 or 100AC (which is better?) x2 pairs
Subs - Still undecided ?? I really want the focal subs, but not at $400/each.

Technics amp harness, speaker connectors and sub-woofer connectors. PnP everything.

That's pretty much what I plan on doing, huma, except I'm going to try to get away with retaining the stock subs. And I'm going with Hertz Energy speakers; a little more sensitive than the Focals and (reportedly) slightly more accurate, though they'll take more juice to run well so the amp's gonna be a need, not a want. It's really too bad that there aren't more PnP amp choices than the JL Audio.

I'm curious, though, about the sub setup. First off: why two? Would running just one help with the 4ohm/2ohm volume disparity? I also wonder how the stock subs get on with so little relative wattage (it's no wonder they aren't very good) ...

[akuan99]

Stock HIFI amp is rated at 205W, 25Wx5 + 40Wx2 for subs.
But these numbers are likely power peak rating so there is really not much power for relatively inefficient speakers.
Most high-end speakers are relatively inefficient since they are optimized for more flat response.
I would suggest replacing amp if replacing speakers with high end models (>$300) otherwise replace them with entry level high quality and efficient ones ($100-$200) if keeping stock amp.

[gtaphile]

Originally Posted by DanG

The problem with the center speaker is that it sits in a plastic cone the exact size of the speaker. With any after market speaker, the magnet is too large to fit in the cone.

I disconnected the center channel and had a listen.....

The image is still pretty far forward with the Focal PC 100's in the doors with tweeters aimed up.

For some others' benefit I still have my E90 335i with the stock HK system and compared the two vehicles....


BMW M235i with HiFi (Non HK system), replaced door and rear speaker with focal PC 100's, no other changes.

BMW M235i with factory (minor DSP and time delay in amp) has much better resolution in vocals, extended top end, from say 150 Hz down still muddy and poor resolver. System output prior to clipping is lower due to 4 ohm speaker load versus 2 ohm from factory speakers.

BMW E90 335i with factory HK has better top to bottom balance, less extended highs, lower resolution vocals, better resolution from 150Hz down, higher output prior to clipping.

Next step for me is to install Marconi 4to6 DSP and 4 channel amp for doors and rear deck and 2 channel amp for subs.

Will report back when finished.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by akuan99

Stock HIFI amp is rated at 205W, 25Wx5 + 40Wx2 for subs.
But these numbers are likely power peak rating so there is really not much power for relatively inefficient speakers.
Most high-end speakers are relatively inefficient since they are optimized for more flat response.
I would suggest replacing amp if replacing speakers with high end models (>$300) otherwise replace them with entry level high quality and efficient ones ($100-$200) if keeping stock amp.

And you can bet those ratings are for the 2 ohm speakers. Meaning: cut those numbers by 40 percent or so for 4 ohm. In other words ... stock amp = crap. Yep: adjusting the budget for the 600/6v2.

[akuan99]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

And you can bet those ratings are for the 2 ohm speakers. Meaning: cut those numbers by 40 percent or so for 4 ohm. In other words ... stock amp = crap. Yep: adjusting the budget for the 600/6v2.

I've just looked at stock speakers and they all 4ohm rated.
The ones for rear and center have 4Ohm stamped on labels.
The ones for the doors do not have 4Ohm on labels but I've measured DC resistance of 3.8Ohm which is exact measurement as the rear ones.
This makes sense since I only noticed a slight decrease in output when I replaced stock speakers.

[gtaphile]

Originally Posted by huma

I found out Technic sells the speaker connectors/harness. You guys could look into that if you don't want to mess with the stock wiring for aftermarket speakers.

I myself am going to place an order with him soon once I figure out everything I need. What do you guys think about this set up?

XD600/6V2 - Perfect because Techics harness eliminates the center speaker
Focal ISC 100 or 100AC (which is better?) x2 pairs
Subs - Still undecided ?? I really want the focal subs, but not at $400/each.

Technics amp harness, speaker connectors and sub-woofer connectors. PnP everything.

I looked at the new Marconi D2100.4 DSP. Since I disconnected the center channel and don't plan on replacing it I now have 4 channels of amplifier in this unit feeding new focals in the doors and back deck, a full Marconi DSP and will take processed out to a two channel Sub amp. This saves space, gives you all of the DSP you need and lowers the total cost. I am keeping the factory subs to hear how they do with this before deciding if they need upgrading.