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      09-27-2018, 11:53 AM   #1
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Dealership flagging car and denying warranty coverage because of after-market speaker

In another discussion, I described an intermittent speaker signal issue that is either the amp or wiring. The dealership shop foremen thinks its probably a short in the wiring somewhere if it's not a loose wire from the amp harness. Because the problem is not occurring right now they say it's hard to diagnose.

BUT they are flagging the car with BMW engineers. They say it's BMW policy to void warranties for any aftermarket parts including speakers. They made me put back in the factory speakers before they'd even look at the car. I informed them of the Moss act but they tell me I'll have to sue BMW to get the warranty coverage. This is Advantage BMW in Houston.

Has anyone had this experience with BMW or dealerships? These are speakers made to work with the factory amp, plug and play, not even cutting a single wire, with the proper ohm loads.
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      09-27-2018, 12:17 PM   #2
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If the aftermarket speakers caused the short(somehow) then the Moss Act doesn't cover it and they don't have to cover it under warranty. However, they also have to prove that it was the aftermarket speaker or install problem.

And you don't necessarily have to sue them, but you can likely file a complaint with the FTC as they are the ones that enforce the Moss Act. You could also contact your state Attorney General.

https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/article...ne-maintenance
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      09-27-2018, 12:21 PM   #3
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I understand needing to replace back oem speaker for any stereo issue. But the voiding warranty policy I don't understand.
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      09-27-2018, 12:42 PM   #4
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The part that is relevant to all members, is that they are claiming that BMW policy is to void warranty of all related components for any modifications, despite Moss act.

There is no way these speakers could do any damage to the amp and there is no way these speakers could cause a short in a wire someplace in the line. In fact, at the moment everything is working correctly, as the problem is intermittent. There is not way they could prove the speakers caused any damage. But they aren't even getting that far. They are refusing to do more than 30 minutes "complimentary diagnosis" without permission from BMW engineering.

Thanks for the advice on contacting the FTC. The attorney general in Texas is unlikely to do much to protect consumers, but I'll look there too.

These are just speakers, made to work with the factory amp, and the speakers could not be the cause of the problem. It's extreme for BMW to be taking this position knowing they are in violation of the Moss act.
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      09-27-2018, 12:43 PM   #5
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I mean I sort of get it, even if I don't necessarily agree with it. From their perspective you are asking for warranty work on a system you modified with parts they aren't familiar with. Granted it's just a speaker but I sort of understand the position. Recommend you replace the stock speaker. It's one of those things that's easier to do and probably will save you time/trouble.
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      09-27-2018, 12:53 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2017M240i View Post
The part that is relevant to all members, is that they are claiming that BMW policy is to void warranty of all related components for any modifications, despite Moss act.

There is no way these speakers could do any damage to the amp and there is no way these speakers could cause a short in a wire someplace in the line. In fact, at the moment everything is working correctly, as the problem is intermittent. There is not way they could prove the speakers caused any damage. But they aren't even getting that far. They are refusing to do more than 30 minutes "complimentary diagnosis" without permission from BMW engineering.

Thanks for the advice on contacting the FTC. The attorney general in Texas is unlikely to do much to protect consumers, but I'll look there too.

These are just speakers, made to work with the factory amp, and the speakers could not be the cause of the problem. It's extreme for BMW to be taking this position knowing they are in violation of the Moss act.
What your BMW dealer is doing is violating the Moss-Edmundson Act on several levels. One of them: To prove that the aftermarket speakers are the cause of the issue, those speakers need to be installed in the car. By making you re-install the OEM speakers, you've effectively removed the basis of its claim of noncoverage.

But that's neither here nor there, really. I have a feeling that your dealer simply wants to avoid a semi-expensive warranty claim (re-wiring) and is feeding you a bunch of imposing BS to achieve that. My advice? Go to another dealer.

As another poster mentioned: Speakers cannot damage components connected to them; only those components can damage the speakers. An analog audio stream is one-way only, and speakers are completely passive components. Short (pun partially intended) of physically damaging the wiring during speaker installation, they cannot possibly, under current laws of physics, damage anything connected to them except one way: they operate at such a low ohm rating that the amplifier can't handle the electrical load and overheats. I seriously, seriously doubt the speakers you installed are creating that kind of issue.

Advantage BMW has a questionable rep. I'd try either Momentum (also a questionable rep, but mainly regarding sales tactics) or BMW of Houston North (a relatively new dealer that might be more willing to work with you).
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Last edited by Viffermike; 09-27-2018 at 12:59 PM..
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      09-27-2018, 01:30 PM   #7
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The dealership gets paid by BMW to do warranty work. It's hard to understand why they'd try to push away warranty work.

I suspect this is a BMW push to see what they can get by with. They can probably deny warranty in violation of the Moss act 80% of the time and the average owner won't know about the Moss act or be a member of a forum to get help. So they make lots of money in denying warranty and back down just before a lawsuit or in response to FTC complaint.

Could also be that the dealership charges a higher rate for non-warranty repair.

Very upsetting. These are just speakers. And the law is very clear on this.

Last edited by 2017M240i; 09-27-2018 at 01:42 PM..
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      09-27-2018, 02:27 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2017M240i View Post
The dealership gets paid by BMW to do warranty work. It's hard to understand why they'd try to push away warranty work.

I suspect this is a BMW push to see what they can get by with. They can probably deny warranty in violation of the Moss act 80% of the time and the average owner won't know about the Moss act or be a member of a forum to get help. So they make lots of money in denying warranty and back down just before a lawsuit or in response to FTC complaint.

Could also be that the dealership charges a higher rate for non-warranty repair.

Very upsetting. These are just speakers. And the law is very clear on this.
One additional dynamic to keep in mind - BMW corporate has becoming increasingly strict with dealers over the years. For example if you need an OEM part replaced under warranty, the dealer is often required to remit the old part for inspection. Maintenance is equally weird. Believe it or not say your brakes need to be replaced and instead of the BMW standard rotors that you get for free you want to buy and have installed the slotted ones. No extra labor, in fact more money for BMW. You buy rotors and they didn't have to buy some for you so it's double money. But they won't do this bc it looks like fraud since they do a job and aren't using some of the parts. None of this makes any sense on a case by case basis but it does in aggregate.

I'm not defending what they're doing to you nor do I think it's fair, just trying to illuminate some of the multiple agendas you're dealing with.
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      09-27-2018, 02:43 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BEM-S4 View Post
One additional dynamic to keep in mind - BMW corporate has becoming increasingly strict with dealers over the years ... I'm not defending what they're doing to you nor do I think it's fair, just trying to illuminate some of the multiple agendas you're dealing with.
Exactly, 2017M240i . While the dealer may be paid by corporate for warranty work, I guarantee you that BMW NA applies pressure to keep those costs down as much as possible -- even insomuch as applying ceilings for it, particularly at a high-volume dealer with a large cross-section of customers like Advantage or Momentum.

To repeat: Speakers can't cause damage to components in car audio. This is physics. 2-ohm drivers were used on some early 2 Series models, so we know from that info that the amp can handle a 2-ohm load. What you are being told is absolute, total, unequivocal BS ...

... and if a dealership is going so far as to flag your car's file for this? Never, ever, EVER give them a cent of business again -- and tell them that. In fact, tell BMW NA that, too.
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      09-27-2018, 03:12 PM   #10
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Thanks for the help.

I was pulled into a meeting with three people from service and the service foremen agreed that there was no way for the speakers to damage the wiring or the amp. And yet they insisted that they'll lose their jobs if they repair the vehicle under warranty without permission from BMW.

The fact that they have contacted the BMW engineers to get BMW to either approve or deny warranty coverage, means taking it to another dealership will be the same result, assuming any of this is true. The other dealerships are much further away from where I live and my attempted purchase experiences with Momentum were so bad I will never do business with them again if I can help it. I'd rather force them to do the warranty work. But I won't spend a penny of my own money now for service when the time comes Etc. There are good local mechanics in Houston.
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      09-27-2018, 03:36 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2017M240i View Post
I was pulled into a meeting with three people from service and the service foremen agreed that there was no way for the speakers to damage the wiring or the amp. And yet they insisted that they'll lose their jobs if they repair the vehicle under warranty without permission from BMW.
Taking that at face value, if you had a decent relationship with the service department there is a much easier way this could have been handled. Were I in your position with my dealer things would have gone something like this in a phone convo:

Me: my speaker is jacked up
Dealer: the aftermarket ones?
Me: yep
Dealer: swap the stock ones back in. If the problem persists we know it's the car, if not we know it's the speaker. If it persists bring the car in with the original gear and we'll get it taken care of.

Again same exact situation as you, not causing any trouble with corporate, and dealer still covers their ass. The key is finding someone intelligent enough to understand how to play the game.

That said once a ship sails it's tough to bring it back to port, so you've gotta ride out the storm at this point.
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      09-27-2018, 06:33 PM   #12
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They brought out another manager who verbally, not in writing, has backed down from their earlier position. He admitted that speakers can't damage the amp and said they would address issues as a warranty problem if the problem returns. But it was an effort to get him to say this directly.

They are blaming the signal issue on the sound generator being coded out. I'm doubtful that this is the cause. They claim they inspected the wiring at the amp and everything seems fine.
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      09-28-2018, 09:59 AM   #13
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Find another dealer. Get up to speed on the Moss Edmundson Act.

Ooops! Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act (P.L. 93-637).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnus...s_Warranty_Act

Last edited by MarcoZandrini; 09-30-2018 at 02:36 PM..
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      09-28-2018, 11:43 AM   #14
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Find another dealer. Get up to speed on the Moss Edmundson Act.
+1
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      10-08-2018, 04:08 PM   #15
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Not that it matters much, but is this the downtown or clear lake location? I had some issues with the clear lake service department in years past, but the store overall took good care of me when the service department screwed things up. I'm about to buy another car from them (M2 Comp), but I'm taking delivery at the Performance Center in SC.

I do understand the stores first response, having run a shop for mobile audio/video install in years past (college days while getting a mechanical engineering degree). If someone modified our work, we no longer warrantied it, as it at times took way longer to diagnose and redo. That time has a cost, and without a clear indication of who's paying this cost, it's in the interest of the store to be conservative. Glad to hear they seem to be changing their tune though, and hope it works out in your favor!
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      10-10-2018, 05:25 PM   #16
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Anecdotally I’ve heard the M240is are having some issues with amplifiers. I had mine replaced on my 2017 dealer told me it was a $4k+ job. Prior to doing so they did puma testing because, as they told me, they’ve already seen 6 in the last 6 months. Not a huge dealership either. Just another data point for how it might not even be related to your aftermarket speakers
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      10-27-2018, 11:35 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2017M240i View Post
They are blaming the signal issue on the sound generator being coded out. I'm doubtful that this is the cause. They claim they inspected the wiring at the amp and everything seems fine.
It seems like you're adding more to this story now. First they were saying it's the speakers, but come to find out you've also done coding to the car. I could certainly see BMW's stand when people start messing with the computers and coding. How are they to know what you've messed around with and changed?

The MMA is designed to cover owners who use replacement parts that meet OEM specifications. Unless you've got proof that the speakers are built to OEM specs, then you don't have much hope of the MMA applying. Plus, you've coded the car yourself, not BMW. MMA has no application here. BMW warranty is there to cover unmodified cars. You've done coding, have replaced the speaker with non-OEM parts, and you've played around with speaker wiring harnesses.

The coding is the big kicker here, thus I can see BMW's point.
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      10-30-2018, 09:16 PM   #18
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I always find it interesting people are so quick to jump on a manufacturer as an evil corporation bent for denying warranty coverage on everyone. Put yourself in their position - you have a product that you have full confidence in, to the point you are offering a 4 year warranty on it. People start buying your product and start adding parts to it, changing the programming, i.e. doing things that you could not have accounted for in your warranty. Now something breaks, and they expect you to still warranty your product even though you don't know exactly what was done, how the parts could have interacted with your product, or if something got botched during the installation. My point is, they are not evil - in contract terms you are in breach and "released" them from their obligation for providing the warranty for you.

In your case, even if the speakers are completely the same specification as OEM, who's to say you didn't accidentally short the terminals with a screw driver during installation with the amp powered on? Could that have caused a problem? Potentially...

Or the speakers could have been poorly made and coil insulation was compromised and your speakers are now intermittently shorting (as the car/coil moves).

My point is, these are possible scenarios that are all within the realm of possibilities. From BMW's stand point, I could see some justification for refusing warranty coverage. Now that there's coding involved - I hate to break it to you, they will probably deny this warranty coverage, and potentially any ECU related issue down the road.
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      11-12-2018, 10:27 AM   #19
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For what it's worth, Advantage BMW (Midtown/Downtown) is my dealer as well. I have had several issues with the service department for my 1+ year of ownership, including taking a week to solve a simple problem, misdiagnosing issues constantly, damaging wheels during tire replacements, claiming to have parts in stock that they did not, and a few other small issues. The dealer location is good for me, but I'm close to considering going to the Momentum dealer on 59S or elsewhere. I also think they grossly overprice used models, underpay on trades, etc. I was slightly disappointed with my buying experience and have been beyond pissed with the service center on occasion. That being said, the management personnel has stepped in several times to solve my problems after the fact. I just wish they hadn't happened in the first place and it has become a recurring issue that speaks more to the shop as a whole.
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      11-12-2018, 03:36 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AggieM235i View Post
For what it's worth, Advantage BMW (Midtown/Downtown) is my dealer as well. I have had several issues with the service department for my 1+ year of ownership, including taking a week to solve a simple problem, misdiagnosing issues constantly, damaging wheels during tire replacements, claiming to have parts in stock that they did not, and a few other small issues. The dealer location is good for me, but I'm close to considering going to the Momentum dealer on 59S or elsewhere. I also think they grossly overprice used models, underpay on trades, etc. I was slightly disappointed with my buying experience and have been beyond pissed with the service center on occasion. That being said, the management personnel has stepped in several times to solve my problems after the fact. I just wish they hadn't happened in the first place and it has become a recurring issue that speaks more to the shop as a whole.
Isn't this with every stealership?
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      11-12-2018, 09:51 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XutvJet View Post
It seems like you're adding more to this story now. First they were saying it's the speakers, but come to find out you've also done coding to the car. I could certainly see BMW's stand when people start messing with the computers and coding. How are they to know what you've messed around with and changed?

The MMA is designed to cover owners who use replacement parts that meet OEM specifications. Unless you've got proof that the speakers are built to OEM specs, then you don't have much hope of the MMA applying. Plus, you've coded the car yourself, not BMW. MMA has no application here. BMW warranty is there to cover unmodified cars. You've done coding, have replaced the speaker with non-OEM parts, and you've played around with speaker wiring harnesses.

The coding is the big kicker here, thus I can see BMW's point.
The Aftermarket speakers installed in the car cannot be at fault because the problem persisted with the original speakers. The car was not coded in any way that could possibly damage anything. BimmerCode simply accesses settings that are available in other nations or models. Turning off the sound generator can’t possibly affect the speaker line output. Finally, federal law allows for owners to modify their vehicles. They tried to deny coverage before any knowlefge of the sound generator being tuned out. The dealership admitted everything I had been told was wrong and that they have no legal basis to deny coverage. They admitted that speakers are passive and can’t cause an map failure or shorted wire. The coding excuse was a very poor attempt to save face. The cause of the failure remains a mystery and has not returned.
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      11-14-2018, 10:19 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2017M240i View Post
The Aftermarket speakers installed in the car cannot be at fault because the problem persisted with the original speakers.
Very likely the case, but you should have removed the speakers to remove all doubt in BMW's eyes.

Quote:
The car was not coded in any way that could possibly damage anything. BimmerCode simply accesses settings that are available in other nations or models. Turning off the sound generator can’t possibly affect the speaker line output.
Very likely the case, but you should have restored the coding and/or not mentioned it to remove all doubt in BMW's eyes.

Quote:
Finally, federal law allows for owners to modify their vehicles.
That is not the intent of the MMA at all. Please reread it as so many do not understand it and somehow believe the MMA gives you free reign to modify your car. The MMA is designed to cover the usage of non-auto manufacturer replacement parts that MEET OEM specifications ONLY. It is not designed or intended to cover ANY parts that operate the car outside of it's designed parameters. Only those that meet OEM specifications. So, unless you can confirm that your aftermarket speakers meet OEM specifications, then the MMA cannot be applied.

The MMA was enacted so that automakers did not have a monopoly on parts to service vehicles and so that owners had choices when it came to buying parts and servicing their cars and doing the work themselves if they so choose.
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