[shivaswrath]

Originally Posted by GSR Autosport

Yes, we have the tools that can crack the ECU. We are trying to get an M235i on the dyno next week. If we do we will post dyno numbers.

If there is anyone else who is interested in an ECU flash tune for their M235i let us know - we will give you a GREAT deal. If you are not 100% satisfied we'll flash it back to stock and you will be no worse for wear. Need to be in SoCal so we can verify everything on the dyno before we return the car into the wild.

I think the F30 market is probably bigger with N55 engines...no plans for us?

[f30kid]

So the dealer can detect this?

[pruettfan]

Looking forward to seeing the M235i results also. Really impressive 228i results.

[GSR Technik]

Originally Posted by greentrbo95gst

Good job on delivering this to the community. The only thing you might want to disclose is that this is fully detectable by the dealers. The cars still use OBD2, but it comes with OBD3 recording capabilities, which stores all the data such as catless downpipes use, modified DME software, increased air counts, etc. We are dealing with this in the F10 M5 community now as plenty of cars have been losing warranties for being flagged while getting a simple oil change when they pull data from so called "black box".

As you mention OBD3 is primarily focused on recording and transmission (i.e. sending data wirelessly) for diagnosis purposes. OBD3 isn't necessarily getting at more information than OBD2 - the thing everyone is going on about is privacy issues of getting access to real time data from your car and using it to your disadvantage. California which usually leads the way for the USA on emissions regulations has already put out an RFP requesting that part of the OBD3 technology could be used to detect a car that doesn't meet emissions standards and automatically send you a violation. Obviously this is getting way into the scary big brother privacy issues so it's going to be interested to see how it all plays out. SEMA has gathered some good information if you want to read more about it here.

http://lobby.la.psu.edu/_107th/093_O..._questions.htm

So what you are saying might be true in the future but what we understand today is that emissions monitoring is not happening today.

As far as detection. The new FlexRay based ECUs do have a DME tamper code built in so if you do not address the issue of NOT triggering the DME tamper code then yes it will show up when you plug-in a diagnostic system. We have resolved this and our tune does not trigger the DME tamper code. We have loaded our tune and plugged it into an Autologic diagnostic system and taken it to a friend in the industry and plugged it into the factory diagnostic system and the tamper code was not triggered. We have had guys bring cars by our shop and we plug our diagnostic system in and we can see that the tamper code has been triggered - no bueno.

From what we know at this point, the changes we are making to the binary code and the recalculation of the checksum are undetectable.

Our tune does not change emissions. Obviously running downpipes does change emissions which COULD? be seen if they are truly recording emissions data. If we are talking the possibility of recording data, actually this issue would be true for a flash tune as well as piggyback systems so it would not be specific to how we are approaching tuning but every tuning product on the market today.

So just to recap - our current understanding is that our tune is not detectable. If you change the emissions systems (e.g. at catless downpipes) on your vehicle it might be possible (unverified) that recording/transmission capabilities built into FlexRay/ODB3 might be able to detect emission measures that are out of whack.

FlexRay which is starting to replace CAN is not a total mystery - it is an ISO standard. Each OEM is implementing it a little different and some are much more focused on security. Interestingly enough Mercedes is actually being more open where BMW is focused on locking everyone out. I think this is actually going to help Mercedes in the enthusiast market - we know they make great motors and we are seeing a rise in tuning Mercedes.

If you want to read more about FlexRay start here.

http://www.ni.com/white-paper/3352/en/

Great discussion forming on this thread, thanks.

If you are interested, PM me directly and would love to explore the specific cars that have been flagged and understand the state of the ECU when it was flagged. We know the M cars have more security implemented than non M cars so there is a lot more work to deal with M car ECUs. You can't treat them the same when tuning.

[GSR Technik]

Originally Posted by shivaswrath

I think the F30 market is probably bigger with N55 engines...no plans for us?

We are working on it, just a little slower because we actually own cars with N20 and S55 so we are dependent on others allowing us to use their cars (for N55) so we move a lot slower on those cars because we don't own them and we can't take risks like we would with cars we own. So slow and steady goes the snail but we will get there.

[GSR Technik]

Originally Posted by Blackcross

At least in the past, this would not happen: the dealers (if doing an update) overwrote everything that was there.

So if you had a tune, then the manufacturer fixed a recall (as an example), updated your ECU (and they do NOT ask you if you take the car in - if the books say an ECU update is necessary they do it), your tune would be over written.

You then need to send it back and get the tune either reinstalled and thus loosing the recall fix (or whatever reason the manufacturer felt they needed new software in the car). Or you wait for the tuner to come out with a new version that has the fix in it, then send it in.

I don't know GSR, but ECU tuners usually don;t have a problem keeping you up to date. So all great news from GSR and I'm keen to keep an eye on M235i progress.

I just wanted to clarify comments made above. ECU updates do come from BMW but most of the time they are updating only portions of the binary - not all code in the entire ECU. To your point there are special circumstances that a very broad ECU update could potentially overwrite some or all of the code we have changed. In those cases we would absolutely reflash the ECU.

An important point about reflashing is that we are only updating the binary we need to so we would NOT copy over the changes that BMW made to fix other issues.

[GSR Technik]

Originally Posted by BMW F22

Interested in this as well. If it is safe and not detectable, a buddy and I will drive our cars down to Socal for a tune when the M235i tune comes out.

Awesome! M235i tuning/testing still on schedule for this Wednesday.

[GSR Technik]

Originally Posted by Tag

Anytime you make changes to the code it essentially has a different checksum. What's to stop the dealer (or dealer tools) from detecting the checksum is not what it's suppose to be? Can't this also potentially brick the ECU if the dealer tried to update it with modified code?

Every ECU has a different password so every ECU has a different checksum. Every time the ECU is updated by anyone, BMW included, the checksum changes. So there is no record of checksum by vehicle so dealers have no way to know what the physical checksum value should be - only that he checksum is valid based on the binary code that is loaded in the ECU.

[GSR Technik]

Originally Posted by mtbnole

Maybe I missed it, but what is the price, and turnaround time?

Stage 1: $999
Stage 2: $1,499

If you overnight to us, we will turn it around in 1 day, we will overnight back to to you and deduct cost of shipping to us from price.

[dizx]

Originally Posted by greentrbo95gst

Good job on delivering this to the community. The only thing you might want to disclose is that this is fully detectable by the dealers. The cars still use OBD2, but it comes with OBD3 recording capabilities, which stores all the data such as catless downpipes use, modified DME software, increased air counts, etc. We are dealing with this in the F10 M5 community now as plenty of cars have been losing warranties for being flagged while getting a simple oil change when they pull data from so called "black box".

Do you have a thread to backup these claims?

[GSR Technik]

Originally Posted by DarkstarZero

Very cool. My dealership has been pretty cool when it comes to mods (they resell dinan parts). Basically, if the car doesn't break because of the mod, then they don't care. However, it has been noted on my account that I track and modify my cars. So a day could be coming where they bring the hammer down. I hope it never happens as that would be the day BMW and I break up

How reliable is the car at this level of tuning? Same reliability at the track?
Can you tune for 93 octane? (east coast, best coast!)
Can I easily switch from Stage 1 to Stage 2, like on the JB4, or do I have to send the ECU back in and pay extra $$?

We have been beating the hell out of our 228i on the track and it has been very reliable - check out the 228i build thread.

http://www.2addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1117222

The way the tune works it should adapt to 93 so you will get more HP/TQ than you would with 91. <jealous>

Because this is a flash tune there is no switching capability. To move from Stage 1 to Stage 2 you would have to send the ECU back in for us to tune along with more $$ ;-)

[ryansauce]

Originally Posted by GSR Autosport

We have been beating the hell out of our 228i on the track and it has been very reliable - check out the 228i build thread.

http://www.2addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1117222

The way the tune works it should adapt to 93 so you will get more HP/TQ than you would with 91. <jealous>

Because this is a flash tune there is no switching capability. To move from Stage 1 to Stage 2 you would have to send the ECU back in for us to tune along with more $$ ;-)

So the car can run fine on 91 gas?

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by GSR Autosport

I just wanted to clarify comments made above. ECU updates do come from BMW but most of the time they are updating only portions of the binary - not all code in the entire ECU. To your point there are special circumstances that a very broad ECU update could potentially overwrite some or all of the code we have changed. In those cases we would absolutely reflash the ECU.

An important point about reflashing is that we are only updating the binary we need to so we would NOT copy over the changes that BMW made to fix other issues.

Thanks for dropping the science!. It's clear that a lot of folks need to brush up on basic programming skills and sign up for your Tuning 102 class! .


You patiently, concisely, and thoughtfully made replies to many naysayers in clear layman English. Nicely done.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by ryansauce

So the car can run fine on 91 gas?

The tune is for 91 and will do better on 93 pump gas... Pretty sure that's exactly what he just said lol

[shivaswrath]

Originally Posted by GSR Autosport

Stage 1: $999
Stage 2: $1,499

If you overnight to us, we will turn it around in 1 day, we will overnight back to to you and deduct cost of shipping to us from price.

That's crazy competitive pricing!
If you have a laptop and it's easy to do, I'm happy to orchestrate an east coast trip and you can tune a number of cars out here, including mine!!

[S4NoMore]

If a car has had JB4 or another tune that triggered the "tamper code," is that tamper code triggered for good or would it go away after some time?

Excellent work

[DarkstarZero]

Does your tune come with a warranty like DINAN's or is it use-at-your-own-risk?

[atg4]

Originally Posted by GSR Autosport

We are working on it, just a little slower because we actually own cars with N20 and S55 so we are dependent on others allowing us to use their cars (for N55) so we move a lot slower on those cars because we don't own them and we can't take risks like we would with cars we own. So slow and steady goes the snail but we will get there.

Do you guys need an f30? I'm local and my car sits during the week. N55

[greentrbo95gst]

Originally Posted by GSR Autosport

As you mention OBD3 is primarily focused on recording and transmission (i.e. sending data wirelessly) for diagnosis purposes. OBD3 isn't necessarily getting at more information than OBD2 - the thing everyone is going on about is privacy issues of getting access to real time data from your car and using it to your disadvantage. California which usually leads the way for the USA on emissions regulations has already put out an RFP requesting that part of the OBD3 technology could be used to detect a car that doesn't meet emissions standards and automatically send you a violation. Obviously this is getting way into the scary big brother privacy issues so it's going to be interested to see how it all plays out. SEMA has gathered some good information if you want to read more about it here.

http://lobby.la.psu.edu/_107th/093_O..._questions.htm

So what you are saying might be true in the future but what we understand today is that emissions monitoring is not happening today.

As far as detection. The new FlexRay based ECUs do have a DME tamper code built in so if you do not address the issue of NOT triggering the DME tamper code then yes it will show up when you plug-in a diagnostic system. We have resolved this and our tune does not trigger the DME tamper code. We have loaded our tune and plugged it into an Autologic diagnostic system and taken it to a friend in the industry and plugged it into the factory diagnostic system and the tamper code was not triggered. We have had guys bring cars by our shop and we plug our diagnostic system in and we can see that the tamper code has been triggered - no bueno.

From what we know at this point, the changes we are making to the binary code and the recalculation of the checksum are undetectable.

Our tune does not change emissions. Obviously running downpipes does change emissions which COULD? be seen if they are truly recording emissions data. If we are talking the possibility of recording data, actually this issue would be true for a flash tune as well as piggyback systems so it would not be specific to how we are approaching tuning but every tuning product on the market today.

So just to recap - our current understanding is that our tune is not detectable. If you change the emissions systems (e.g. at catless downpipes) on your vehicle it might be possible (unverified) that recording/transmission capabilities built into FlexRay/ODB3 might be able to detect emission measures that are out of whack.

FlexRay which is starting to replace CAN is not a total mystery - it is an ISO standard. Each OEM is implementing it a little different and some are much more focused on security. Interestingly enough Mercedes is actually being more open where BMW is focused on locking everyone out. I think this is actually going to help Mercedes in the enthusiast market - we know they make great motors and we are seeing a rise in tuning Mercedes.

If you want to read more about FlexRay start here.

http://www.ni.com/white-paper/3352/en/

Great discussion forming on this thread, thanks.

If you are interested, PM me directly and would love to explore the specific cars that have been flagged and understand the state of the ECU when it was flagged. We know the M cars have more security implemented than non M cars so there is a lot more work to deal with M car ECUs. You can't treat them the same when tuning.

Some really really good info here. I am glad to know that you are one of the most knowledgable vendors on here. You are correct, the M cars have a lot more security and the entire decryption process varies from non M cars. Also as you probably know the encryption process of the f10 m5 took 3 years and M3/M4 few months only. However, both chassis are now experiencing problems as Shop foreman are being rewarded to flag modified cars. I know for a fact that both platforms have been recording catless downpipes, broken encryptions and modified DCT software, and those cars lost warranty.
The whole big brother watching has been present in Europe for few years already and now manufacturers found a way to implement the same in the US which is privacy law suit heavy. It's definitely interesting to see where the car market is heading.
In July I am looking to lease a 228 or 235 as a commuter and I will definitely contact you for a tune. I am local as well.

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by uberspeed

Can the dealer detect the flash?
TIA

The better question is can a BMW tech caught it. Dealerships are at the mercy of BMW the company.

[DarkstarZero]

Originally Posted by GSR Autosport

We have been beating the hell out of our 228i on the track and it has been very reliable - check out the 228i build thread.

http://www.2addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1117222

Because this is a flash tune there is no switching capability. To move from Stage 1 to Stage 2 you would have to send the ECU back in for us to tune along with more $$ ;-)

Are there any issues with the Stage 1 and the N26 stock downpipes? The N26 downpipes are much more restrictive than the N20 downpipes and therefor get much more hot under added boost.

If I were to get a Stage 1 for $1k and then want to upgrade to Stage 2 later, do I pay another $1500 or just the difference of an extra $500?

[GSR Technik]

Originally Posted by DarkstarZero

Does your tune come with a warranty like DINAN's or is it use-at-your-own-risk?

Dinan has made a lot of money over the years and is now in a position to purchase a third party insurance product to cover things if Dinan gets in a pissing match with BMW over who's fault it is. Unfortunately we are not in the same position so it is use-at-your-own-risk. Of course we think we have done a good assessment of what a reasonable tune is without putting the motor on the edge of the performance envelope.