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      07-30-2022, 12:14 AM   #1
Himbla122
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More downpipe question’s lol

Hey guys,

Looking to do a stage 2 tune eventually and thought I’d start with a downpipe while I wait for them to release a tune for my model.

I live in Ontario Canada and we don’t have the same emissions tests as the states. This kind of makes the catless downpipe more of an option seeing how I wouldn’t have to worry about throwing a CEL. Price point alone I’ve been looking at the VSRF downpipe. VSRF also has the high flow catted downpipe but I can’t seem to find many reviews on it.

Sort of torn between catted/catless
Does anyone have any experience using the VSRF high flow catted downpipe and if so how’s it still holding up after X amount of time?
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      07-30-2022, 07:42 AM   #2
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Catless = higher flow, slightly better performance and more smell
Catted = slightly less flow and performance with almost no smell
I have CTS catted but would choose catless if emissions weren't an issue...
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      07-30-2022, 09:33 AM   #3
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Regardless of the brand, catless will be louder than catted and with a fuel smell.
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      07-30-2022, 12:14 PM   #4
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I would go with our catless downpipe. The smell isn't really a huge deal on the b58 in my opinion and you won't have to worry about a cat coming apart in a few years.
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      07-30-2022, 06:37 PM   #5
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All the catless folks make me laugh - because BMW WEC and GTLemans cars have cats. And these people on here are nowhere close in skill to be able to push their street cars.
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      07-31-2022, 10:39 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WolfGTI View Post
All the catless folks make me laugh - because BMW WEC and GTLemans cars have cats. And these people on here are nowhere close in skill to be able to push their street cars.
If anything I just prefer the sound of catted on these cars. Kinda seems like a no brainer to me. Power difference is negligible so it comes down to smell, sound, and price/quality.

I went AA for these reasons.
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      07-31-2022, 01:10 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiesta ST to M240i View Post
Power difference is negligible...
I found this from Steve Dinan at Carbahn regarding his Stage 1 M340i/M440i B58 tune:

"A note on down pipes (removing the catalyst). We have run back-to-back dyno runs with the cat on and off and the power gain is much smaller than most people claim usually around 11hp."

The tune produces "93 Octane: 471 Flywheel HP & 495 lb-ft Flywheel torque". At that level, I'm not sure many drivers would notice an 11 HP increase.
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      08-01-2022, 09:02 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dradernh View Post
I found this from Steve Dinan at Carbahn regarding his Stage 1 M340i/M440i B58 tune:

"A note on down pipes (removing the catalyst). We have run back-to-back dyno runs with the cat on and off and the power gain is much smaller than most people claim usually around 11hp."

The tune produces "93 Octane: 471 Flywheel HP & 495 lb-ft Flywheel torque". I'm not sure many drivers would notice an 11 HP increase at that level.
11 hp without any changes is a significant difference. Once you run a map that takes advantage of the higher flow, you will double the gains.
Upgrade your fueling or your turbo, and you will triple the gains.

These are excellent numbers; Steve Dinan knows it as he is a good tuner. But he is also an even better salesman
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      08-01-2022, 01:23 PM   #9
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I haven’t had any luck finding sound clips for m240is with the M performance exhaust high flow cat and catless. Also I wouldn’t bother with the downpipe if I wasn’t planning on going stage 2.
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      08-01-2022, 07:01 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WolfGTI View Post
All the catless folks make me laugh - because BMW WEC and GTLemans cars have cats. And these people on here are nowhere close in skill to be able to push their street cars.
Lol ok dom toreto. I’m sure I can handle the extra 70hp a tune/catless might add.
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      08-02-2022, 09:41 AM   #11
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Catless sounds non premium (best way I can describe it). And the smell wouldn't work for me.

If you have a high-flow cat you miss out on a few hp. But will the extra 10-20hp noticed by you? In a tiny 100hp ecobox 10-20hp are a lot, but in a 400+ hp car not so much.
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      08-02-2022, 10:18 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dradernh View Post
I found this from Steve Dinan at Carbahn regarding his Stage 1 M340i/M440i B58 tune:

"A note on down pipes (removing the catalyst). We have run back-to-back dyno runs with the cat on and off and the power gain is much smaller than most people claim usually around 11hp."

The tune produces "93 Octane: 471 Flywheel HP & 495 lb-ft Flywheel torque". At that level, I'm not sure many drivers would notice an 11 HP increase.
I agree with the power increase being negligible. I have similar sentiments about a cold air intake too vs the stock airbox. No one is feeling a 10HP difference, the difference is only heard in the new sound.
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      08-02-2022, 10:20 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marcthedark View Post
Catless sounds non premium (best way I can describe it). And the smell wouldn't work for me.

If you have a high-flow cat you miss out on a few hp. But will the extra 10-20hp noticed by you? In a tiny 100hp ecobox 10-20hp are a lot, but in a 400+ hp car not so much.
Agreed. I have catless and the sound is a little raspy in the lower revs and at times the smell can be a bit overwhelming. I went the catless route because of the price point, living in MN where we don't have emissions tests anymore, and I assumed I would appreciate the added power vs catted. If I were to do it again I would go with high-flow catted.
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      08-02-2022, 02:06 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Himbla122 View Post
Lol ok dom toreto. I’m sure I can handle the extra 70hp a tune/catless might add.
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      08-02-2022, 05:31 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com View Post
Steve Dinan...is a good tuner. But he is also an even better salesman
I'm going to go with better than "good" considering BMW contracted with Dinan to build BMW engines for the Chip Ganassi team that went on to win two Rolex 24 races at Daytona and four Rolex Series Daytona Prototype championships.

With that background, I don't doubt for a moment that he's pretty effective selling vendors, too!

I spent a productive 45 minutes with him one afternoon while he explained to me why aftermarket ECUs and aftermarket tunes of manufacturer ECUs weren't as reliable as manufacturer's tunes. I thought he communicated clearly and succinctly, and I had no difficulty keeping up with his detailed rundown of the issues involved.

An interesting subject in that meeting was Grand Am's 2011 requirement that teams change from the $6.5K MoTeC ECU to the $20K Bosch ECU. He pointed out that neither of those very capable ECUs was able to handle red line control or knock control as effectively as the programming in manufacturers' street car ECUs. The details don't really matter here, but the fact took me by surprise. I had a MoTeC ECU in my race car, and that was a "who knew!" moment for me and gave me a better appreciation for the knowledge and talent of the MoTeC tuner I'd hired.

Re: the Bosch ECU that Grand Am required...the manual that came with the ECU was in German, and there was no English translation available. Dinan said that despite no member of his team knowing German, the hiccup slowed them down only a little. That skill set is probably a step above the average tuner/tuning shop's capabilities.

For this owner and customer, Dinan's experience and his products' reliability matter most. (And yes, I recall the issue with the B58 V1 piggyback - a very un-Dinan like glitch, I thought.)

While I understand that bigger numbers are available from other sources, I'm pretty conservative, with a focus on set-it-and-forget-it. If I wanted more power than I'm getting from my Dinan Elite V2 tune, I'd certainly look at the alternatives. As it is, the track is the only place I've used more than...what, I don't know...40% of my car's power? After I'd spent not a whole lot of time on race tracks, going fast on the street paled in comparison and lost its appeal. I haven't had a ticket since, and I don't miss those unpleasant conversations with the boys in blue!
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      08-02-2022, 06:06 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMcLellan View Post
I agree with the power increase being negligible. I have similar sentiments about a cold air intake too vs the stock airbox. No one is feeling a 10HP difference, the difference is only heard in the new sound.
I agree. I went with the Dinan CAI mostly because the $$$ were burning a hole in my pocket!
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      08-15-2022, 12:43 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Himbla122 View Post
I haven’t had any luck finding sound clips for m240is with the M performance exhaust high flow cat and catless. Also I wouldn’t bother with the downpipe if I wasn’t planning on going stage 2.
Check out this guy's videos: https://www.youtube.com/user/DuckMasterAdam/videos

I have MPE, resonator delete, and VRSF Catless and it sounds similar to his.

Last edited by Mathew Miles; 08-15-2022 at 12:55 PM..
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      08-15-2022, 03:47 PM   #18
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https://www.youtube.com/shorts/nhbDQcPlg_E

Here is my 240 with downpipe only, nothing else.

Sounds amazing, since then I've gotten a resonator delete and a mid muffler delete, car sounds amazing, loud when needed, quite otherwise, no drone.

I'd just suggest catless because its cheaper and you can sell your OEM cat for a good amount here, the sound difference in catless and catted won't be much either. and i hardly get the smell either.
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      08-20-2022, 05:23 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadysu View Post
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/nhbDQcPlg_E

Here is my 240 with downpipe only, nothing else.

Sounds amazing, since then I've gotten a resonator delete and a mid muffler delete, car sounds amazing, loud when needed, quite otherwise, no drone.

I'd just suggest catless because its cheaper and you can sell your OEM cat for a good amount here, the sound difference in catless and catted won't be much either. and i hardly get the smell either.
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      08-21-2022, 10:10 AM   #20
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Catless sounds great on the b58 with stock muffler. Most high flow downpipes will still throw a cel light just like catless so unless your going to spend money on some expensive cats catless is the best option until you get a tune.
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      11-09-2022, 04:53 AM   #21
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I'm using CTS catted with a small spacer on the second 02 sensor and the results have been good.
1) Less smell then catless
2) Was able to set readiness and pass inspection with this combination
No issues...
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