[Wyldstyle]

Originally Posted by BimBimM2

I am not surprised. I don't really have a high opinion of STL haha. Perhaps it is my ignorance

I visited STL once for a client. They had me staying in a hotel room downtown (I think?). I hated the downtown so much that I didn't even stay the night; booked a flight back to Boston right after meetings ended.

Anyway, good call. A/S tires with an XDrive are the way to go. And, besides, if you wanted RWD then you must get the M2C! Getting a RWD M240i (or worse yet a 230i) at that point is like an exercise in pointlessness haha

Downtown is not great and is not the place to stay. The Central West End + Forest Park are lovely, as examples that aren't too far from downtown. Forest Park is one of the largest city parks in the country and houses arguably the 2nd best zoo in the country (after San Diego). I live in Clayton, which borders the west end of the city and Forest Park. It is the county seat for StL County and contains its own very busy commercial "downtown" that is walkable and safe, full of excellent restaurants. There are other beautiful and historic areas of the city proper as well.

It would not be fair to judge all of St. Louis by what has become of our downtown. I have been many places that I would not return to if I visited only certain parts of the city including Paris, Madrid, Rome, and more. This is especially true of business travel, which is always short on time and targeted. I do not spend much time in downtown StL except for Cardinals games and the occasional concert. Very slowly, efforts are being made to revitalize it. It is a difficult prospect because the city school district is abysmal (due to no money), so nearly anyone with the money and kids settles elsewhere in the region, creating a vicious cycle. There is, however, a large technology industry and a lot of new lofts, etc, to draw younger people pre-kids. I have a few younger, unmarried coworkers who live there. I have hope it will continue to improve.

/offtopic

[BimBimM2]

Originally Posted by Wyldstyle

Downtown is not great and is not the place to stay. The Central West End + Forest Park are lovely, as examples that aren't too far from downtown. Forest Park is one of the largest city parks in the country and houses arguably the 2nd best zoo in the country (after San Diego). I live in Clayton, which borders the west end of the city and Forest Park. It is the county seat for StL County and contains its own very busy commercial "downtown" that is walkable and safe, full of excellent restaurants. There are other beautiful and historic areas of the city proper as well.

It would not be fair to judge all of St. Louis by our downtown. I have been many places that I would not return to if I visited only certain parts of the city including Paris, Madrid, Rome, and more. This is especially true of business travel, which is always short on time and targeted. I do not spend much time in downtown StL except for Cardinals games and the occasional concert. Very slowly, efforts are being made to revitalize it. It is a difficult prospect because the city school district is abysmal (due to no money), so nearly anyone with the money and kids settles elsewhere in the region, creating a vicious cycle. There is, however, a large technology industry and a lot of new lofts, etc, to draw younger people pre-kids. I have a few younger, unmarried coworkers who live there. I have hope it will continue to improve.

Hmm... now reading this I need to revisit STL!! See, that's the fun of talking to people!

Thank you very much; sincerely, just reading your thoughts made me feel I need to give STL a chance. Seems like a vibrant place!

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by Wyldstyle

One other consideration with regard to starting power is that my driveway has a fairly steep incline where one enters it from the road, and it is narrow with retaining walls, so the AWD may be more capable of driving up it at a very low speed; there is no opportunity to build momentum ahead of entering the driveway, particularly during slick conditions. Not helping matters is that I have a neighbor who always parks on the opposite side of the street directly at the bottom of my driveway...

I had the identical situation of a hilly driveway to the street, north of you in Michigan, with a house we bought in the 90s. After the first winter, we tore out the asphalt driveway and installed a heater system to melt the snow on the hill and to the garage doors. No amount of snow plowing could get a clean enough surface to have the traction of rubber on concrete. It worked perfectly and was a life-saver. That first winter, I did slide down the hill and into the street...luckily no cross traffic at the time.

One thing to keep in mind is weight transfer. As you go up the hill, the weight of the vehicle essentially transfers to the rear wheels, unloading the front wheels. There still is some benefit to the pulling effect of the front wheels, assuming you have tires with sufficient traction (the very problem of all season tires), but please don't be surprised when it is less than you may have desired and you sense the front tires slipping.

Originally Posted by BimBimM2

And, besides, if you wanted RWD then you must get the M2C! Getting a RWD M240i (or worse yet a 230i) at that point is like an exercise in pointlessness haha

Wyldstyle: Pay no attention to this overwrought and illogical hysteria. Next, you'll find someone ordered a Miata to be delivered to your driveway.

[BimBimM2]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

I had the identical situation of a hilly driveway to the street, north of you in Michigan, with a house we bought in the 90s. After the first winter, we tore out the asphalt driveway and installed a heater system to melt the snow on the hill and to the garage doors. No amount of snow plowing could get a clean enough surface to have the traction of rubber on concrete. It worked perfectly and was a life-saver. That first winter, I did slide down the hill and into the street...luckily no cross traffic at the time.

One thing to keep in mind is weight transfer. As you go up the hill, the weight of the vehicle essentially transfers to the rear wheels, unloading the front wheels. There still is some benefit to the pulling effect of the front wheels, assuming you have tires with sufficient traction (the very problem of all season tires), but please don't be surprised when it is less than you may have desired and you sense the front tires slipping.

Wyldstyle: Pay no attention to this overwrought and illogical hysteria. Next, you'll find someone ordered a Miata to be delivered to your driveway.

That's true, I would buy a Miata for everyone if I could

But come on, feathers ruffled or not, one cannot deny that M2C and M240xi are purpose built, everything in between is a relative compromise. Of course, exception being convertible buyers.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by BimBimM2

But come on, feathers ruffled or not, one cannot deny that M2C and M240xi are purpose built, everything in between is a relative compromise.

What you find undeniable is actually unsupportable, with the root cause of the issue being an overly narrow, almost narcissistic, view of purpose and compromise. All of the models you praise or assail were built to a purpose whether you recognize or approve of the purpose or not. Each had a business case with a mission statement and target market defined. You seem to assume everyone should value what you value and devalue what you devalue. The world doesn't work like that. The case for each model is easy enough to make for an open, strategically-oriented mind that is doesn't need retelling here.

As well, each model is also a compromise. You have said you are an engineer. I spent enough time learning from automotive engineers in a variety of disciplines over decades as the Product Planner on the platform team to know that every vehicle ever produced represents compromise. The attributes present in high quantity that you prize versus those in low quantity that you don't care much about may lead to you award the label of "Purpose Built (for BimBim"?), but that doesn't negate that compromises were made for essentially every attribute during vehicle development.

I suggest reflections in empathy to realize that a variety of likes/dislikes/preferences exist and they are just as valid for those who hold them as yours may be for you.

[BimBimM2]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

What you find undeniable is actually unsupportable, with the root cause of the issue being an overly narrow, almost narcissistic, view of purpose and compromise. All of the models you praise or assail were built to a purpose whether you recognize or approve of the purpose or not. Each had a business case with a mission statement and target market defined. You seem to assume everyone should value what you value and devalue what you devalue. The world doesn't work like that. The case for each model is easy enough to make for an open, strategically-oriented mind that is doesn't need retelling here.

As well, each model is also a compromise. You have said you are an engineer. I spent enough time learning from automotive engineers in a variety of disciplines over decades as the Product Planner on the platform team to know that every vehicle ever produced represents compromise. The attributes present in high quantity that you prize versus those in low quantity that you don't care much about may lead to you award the label of "Purpose Built (for BimBim"?), but that doesn't negate that compromises were made for essentially every attribute during vehicle development.

I suggest reflections in empathy to realize that a variety of likes/dislikes/preferences exist and they are just as valid for those who hold them as yours may be for you.

Precisely! Everything is purpose built, and marketed toward a demographic. Totally!

At this point I would offer you some LaCroix Lime with a dash of Newman's Own lemonade in it. It is the best for chilling out. I promise. It is a hot day!

For me, a RWD M240i is pointless when an M2C is right there for a few more. I get that isn't the case for you but so what? Internet opinions are just that, internet opinions. That's what the OP is collecting, and that's awesome!

P.s. @sportstick I adore your posts because you are always thoughtful and have some of the nicest advice here. Not here to invalidate you, just voicing what I think.

[Wyldstyle]

Originally Posted by BimBimM2

Hmm... now reading this I need to revisit STL!! See, that's the fun of talking to people!

Thank you very much; sincerely, just reading your thoughts made me feel I need to give STL a chance. Seems like a vibrant place!

Vibrant is the word I would use. There is a lot going on here - some of it bad, but plenty of it good.

Originally Posted by Sportstick

I had the identical situation of a hilly driveway to the street, north of you in Michigan, with a house we bought in the 90s. After the first winter, we tore out the asphalt driveway and installed a heater system to melt the snow on the hill and to the garage doors. No amount of snow plowing could get a clean enough surface to have the traction of rubber on concrete. It worked perfectly and was a life-saver. That first winter, I did slide down the hill and into the street...luckily no cross traffic at the time.

Yikes! This happened - more than once - to a neighbor's 911... when it was parked. Made me paranoid about it happening to me. Fortunately we have a level spot at the top of the driveway, and I usually end up parked there with my husband's heavier SUV parked on the incline. If I were to go to the expense of excavating the driveway, it would be to put in a garage!

Originally Posted by BimBimM2

That's true, I would buy a Miata for everyone if I could

I'll take it!

[Gilles79]

Originally Posted by Wyldstyle

Thanks, Sportstick. You have taught me a lot in this thread! While I totally agree that stopping/maneuvering is most important, getting started does become significant in rush hour / congested situations; I shudder to imagine getting stuck and blocking a lane on the interstate, or even an intersection due to a red light, during a storm.

One other consideration with regard to starting power is that my driveway has a fairly steep incline where one enters it from the road, and it is narrow with retaining walls, so the AWD may be more capable of driving up it at a very low speed; there is no opportunity to build momentum ahead of entering the driveway, particularly during slick conditions. Not helping matters is that I have a neighbor who always parks on the opposite side of the street directly at the bottom of my driveway...

This sounds exactly like my driveway. I spent years trying to get up the driveway on snowy days and even with front wheel drive, dedicated snow tires and playing with traction control on and off, I would occasionally get stuck half way up. AWD makes ALL the difference, I always make it up the incline.
And on these same days, the damn snowplow would always leave a big pile where our side street meets the main road, so it was always very dramatic trying to get traction to take advantage of a break in traffic. Now with AWD this is no problem.
Not to mention inclines on the way to work with stop lights, hoping the light doesn't turn red, meaning having to stop and lose precious momentum and trying to get going again.
I don't miss these challenges. AWD makes all the difference, very confidence inspiring.

[BimBimM2]

Originally Posted by Gilles79

This sounds exactly like my driveway. I spent years trying to get up the driveway on snowy days and even with front wheel drive, dedicated snow tires and playing with traction control on and off, I would occasionally get stuck half way up. AWD makes ALL the difference, I always make it up the incline.
And on these same days, the damn snowplow would always leave a big pile where our side street meets the main road, so it was always very dramatic trying to get traction to take advantage of a break in traffic. Now with AWD this is no problem.
Not to mention inclines on the way to work with stop lights, hoping the light doesn't turn red, meaning having to stop and lose precious momentum and trying to get going again.
I don't miss these challenges. AWD makes all the difference, very confidence inspiring.

Exactly the same situation with my neighborhood as well. "Confidence inspiring" is exactly how I feel about AWD as well. It keeps the car planted. MN snow storms plus uphill climbs were NOTHING for this car. However that was only possible due to AWD with awesome winter tires, at least in my case.

Also, for some reason, the front of the car seems to push aggressively with AWD, which is something I enjoy immensely. Hard to explain, actually. Adds to that sure-footed feel for sure.

I have tons of backroads here; I really enjoy how the XDrive feels like it is on rails, like a slot car haha

Edit: I have driven plenty of RWD cars here on these backroads so I speak with context; there is just something so beautiful and satisfying about gracefully carving a shape turn without worrying that the rear end would playfully kick out on these tight backroads.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by BimBimM2

Also, for some reason, the front of the car seems to push aggressively with AWD, which is something I enjoy immensely. Hard to explain, actually. Adds to that sure-footed feel for sure...there is just something so beautiful and satisfying about gracefully carving a shape turn without worrying that the rear end would playfully kick out on these tight backroads.

Just to clarify...you prefer understeer to oversteer?

[BimBimM2]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

Just to clarify...you prefer understeer to oversteer?

[IMG]https://www.2addicts.com/forums/atta...8;d=1591057357[/IMG]

Aww... sportstick discovered memes as Japanese schoolgirls would say "kawaiiiii!!!"

But, yes, I do love the on-rails like movement of the xDrive. I mean look at my use case; I am banging around suburbia. I am not tracking this car, I am taking these graceful yet spirited drives to Costco or the lake.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by BimBimM2

Aww... sportstick discovered memes as Japanese schoolgirls would say "kawaiiiii!!!"

But, yes, I do love the on-rails like movement of the xDrive. I mean look at my use case; I am banging around suburbia. I am not tracking this car, I am taking these graceful yet spirited drives to Costco or the lake.

No tracking here either. Understeer has usually been regarded as safer, as a less skilled driver can get themselves out of trouble by simply slowing down, if they react in time. Oversteer requires more experience with steering control. Actually preferring understeer would add to your uniqueness among BMW owners.

[BimBimM2]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

No tracking here either. Understeer has usually been regarded as safer, as a less skilled driver can get themselves out of trouble by simply slowing down, if they react in time. Oversteer requires more experience with steering control. Actually preferring understeer would add to your uniqueness among BMW owners.

Gawwd I resisted the urge to simply "ok boomer" this response.

[Wyldstyle]

I also enjoy the rails-like experience of xDrive.

Over time I did enjoy my RWD 335i more than I currently enjoy my 440xi, but I cannot be sure that was the RWD vs AWD, because they are different in other ways as well.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by BimBimM2

Gawwd I resisted the urge to simply "ok boomer" this response.

Quite premature. It apparently will take far greater powers than I have.

BTW, not everything good is attributable to Boomers, although, thank you for the thought. Enthusiast drivers among Gen X, Millennials, and Gen Z also understand optimal chassis balance is neutral to oversteer and have learned to drive it well. Given your energy level, hope may spring eternal.

[HeyMoe53]

I'm not ever going to tell someone what to do, but buying an M240 worked for me. I wanted a stick; I've driven a stick for years. So, X-Drive was out. Maybe next time; the knee on my "clutch leg" is starting to complain.


I could have stretched for an M2 ('17). But, I felt that sticking with an M240 was enough for me. It is.


And, strangely, this. Six months after I got the M240, I had the opportunity to make an offer on a small, but nice home in my town. I trumped the competing offer on the home, because I had the money in hand to do the closing costs.


It was the money I saved by not going the M2 route.


So, I own a still-fun to drive car, and for the first time since I got divorced 16 years ago, I own my own home, WITH A GARAGE! And, an outside water faucet next to the driveway, for my frequent washing sessions.



Indeed, to each his or her own. It worked out so well for me! No second guessing, not ever. I hope everyone's "car story" is as good.

[BimBimM2]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

Quite premature. It apparently will take far greater powers than I have.

BTW, not everything good is attributable to Boomers, although, thank you for the thought. Enthusiast drivers among Gen X, Millennials, and Gen Z also understand optimal chassis balance is neutral to oversteer and have learned to drive it well. Given your energy level, hope may spring eternal.

Good for you! I don't disagree.

Still if RWD is desired, M2C > RWD M240i

[BimBimM2]

Originally Posted by HeyMoe53

I'm not ever going to tell someone what to do, but buying an M240 worked for me. I wanted a stick; I've driven a stick for years. So, X-Drive was out. Maybe next time; the knee on my "clutch leg" is starting to complain.


I could have stretched for an M2 ('17). But, I felt that sticking with an M240 was enough for me. It is.


And, strangely, this. Six months after I got the M240, I had the opportunity to make an offer on a small, but nice home in my town. I trumped the competing offer on the home, because I had the money in hand to do the closing costs.


It was the money I saved by not going the M2 route.


So, I own a still-fun to drive car, and for the first time since I got divorced 16 years ago, I own my own home, WITH A GARAGE! And, an outside water faucet next to the driveway, for my frequent washing sessions.



Indeed, to each his or her own. It worked out so well for me! No second guessing, not ever. I hope everyone's "car story" is as good.

I think your car story is awesome. Also, good on you for not buying that N55 equipped M2! The M240i with the B58 is a far more reliable purchase.