[Zooks527]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Yes, "snow" tires are killer in the snow and ice, but if you're only driving on roads that have measureable snow on them 10 days out of the winter, then why make such a compromise.

Because while moderate to deep snow may be a rare event, patches of ice exist for most of the winter, usually in any shady spot, often on curves. All-season tires don't perform well on dry ice, and (from personal experience using full tread Continental DWS tires) not at all on wet ice.

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Snow tires have downright terrible dry and wet handling and braking. Why trade off terrible braking in the dry and wet just so you have a bit more traction in the white stuff?

Oh, come on now, take a breath. "Downright terrible" is needless hyperbole.

There is a noticeable decrease in handling ability, which realistically translates to "you can't drive like a jackass on winter tires". There's little (if any) handling degradation at legal speeds on just about any road.

Stopping is the real difference. Snow tires will stretch stopping distance in the dry perhaps 15% or so over all-season tires. Trade that off against taking back about the same advantage on snow and taking 30% to 50% off the stopping distance on ice and it becomes a more complicated decision than a simplistic "go with what you see the most" screen.


References:
http://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/f...vs-summer.html
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/...y.jsp?ttid=116
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/...y.jsp?ttid=103

[XutvJet]

If I lived further north or in an area get a lot of snow and/or snow/ice stays on the road, then I'd reconsider. I guess my point is that many have been sold on this idea from the Tire Rack and auto forums that if it snows in your town and temps in the winter are routinely below 40, then you MUST have winter and/or snow tires. I feel that you need to evaluate the typical conditions you will drive in the winter to determine if winter/snow tires are appropriate or are overkill. Preparing your car for the worst-case at all time is a poor approach because you're compromising it's abilities in the more common road conditions. Listen, I'm not saying run summer tires in winter conditions or that any all season tire will do. If you live in Buffalo, NY, and you plan on driving in the winter, you probably need snow tires. If you live in NJ, you probably need winter or snow tires. If you live in Kansas City or St. Louis, you can likely get away with a good set of all seasons or a more performance focused winter tire.

Yes, I technically roll the dice by driving in the snow with less ideal all season rubber vs running winter/snow tires. HOWEVER, the same can be said for driving in warm (60+ degree) dry weather where the ideal performing tire would be R-spec street tires. Running R-Spec rubber in the more common spring and summer conditions (dry and warm) could very well save you from getting in a wreck just like winter/snow tires in winter conditions. R-spec rubber will stop faster and grip far harder in an avoidance turn than the MPSS tires and definitely those Pirelli C7s. Why the discrepancy in rationale? They both accomplish the same thing.

[shark715]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

If I lived further north or in an area get a lot of snow and/or snow/ice stays on the road, then I'd reconsider. I guess my point is that many have been sold on this idea from the Tire Rack and auto forums that if it snows in your town and temps in the winter are routinely below 40, then you MUST have winter and/or snow tires. I feel that you need to evaluate the typical conditions you will drive in the winter to determine if winter/snow tires are appropriate or are overkill. Preparing your car for the worst-case at all time is a poor approach because you're compromising it's abilities in the more common road conditions. Listen, I'm not saying run summer tires in winter conditions or that any all season tire will do. If you live in Buffalo, NY, and you plan on driving in the winter, you probably need snow tires. If you live in NJ, you probably need winter or snow tires. If you live in Kansas City or St. Louis, you can likely get away with a good set of all seasons or a more performance focused winter tire.

Yes, I technically roll the dice by driving in the snow with less ideal all season rubber vs running winter/snow tires. HOWEVER, the same can be said for driving in warm (60+ degree) dry weather where the ideal performing tire would be R-spec street tires. Running R-Spec rubber in the more common spring and summer conditions (dry and warm) could very well save you from getting in a wreck just like winter/snow tires in winter conditions. R-spec rubber will stop faster and grip far harder in an avoidance turn than the MPSS tires and definitely those Pirelli C7s. Why the discrepancy in rationale? They both accomplish the same thing.

No way is that an apples to apples comparison as you suggest.

When was the last time you heard a wreck could have been avoided with R-spec rubber, and the person was not driving aggressively to begin with? That would be pretty rare.

That's like trying to take the position that using winters tires is analagous to the suggesting everyone should be driving a Lotus Elise instead of a minivan because the Lotus handles better and will therefore be better at avoiding collisions.

[redontheline]

Originally Posted by shark715

No way is that an apples to apples comparison as you suggest.

When was the last time you heard a wreck could have been avoided with R-spec rubber, and the person was not driving aggressively to begin with? That would be pretty rare.

That's like trying to take the position that using winters tires is analagous to the suggesting everyone should be driving a Lotus Elise instead of a minivan because the Lotus handles better and will therefore be better at avoiding collisions.

I second this. Now where's my Elise subsidy??

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by shark715

No way is that an apples to apples comparison as you suggest.

When was the last time you heard a wreck could have been avoided with R-spec rubber, and the person was not driving aggressively to begin with? That would be pretty rare.

That's like trying to take the position that using winters tires is analagous to the suggesting everyone should be driving a Lotus Elise instead of a minivan because the Lotus handles better and will therefore be better at avoiding collisions.

Tire compound more or less = level of grip available. A car on R-spec rubber will stop faster, turn harder, and grip harder in warm/dry conditions and even in the wet assuming there's no standing water. All factors of which could possibly save you from a crash. How is this ANY different from the snow/winter tire argument? It is definitely not apples to oranges.

[jpnh]

Originally Posted by Zooks527

Because while moderate to deep snow may be a rare event, patches of ice exist for most of the winter, usually in any shady spot, often on curves. All-season tires don't perform well on dry ice, and (from personal experience using full tread Continental DWS tires) not at all on wet ice.

I'm looking at a 230/m240 RWD and am in fact one of those people who live in a snow/ice belt a bit north of you in central NH

I also live on a wicked hill and am looking for a reality check from folks that really do drive a RWD 2 series in REAL snow.

Am seriously considering a set of Hakka 7/8's that are studded and carrying a set of snow cables/chains

I can avoid the majority of tough days by driving a 4x4 but.....

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Tire compound more or less = level of grip available. A car on R-spec rubber will stop faster, turn harder, and grip harder in warm/dry conditions and even in the wet assuming there's no standing water. All factors of which could possibly save you from a crash. How is this ANY different from the snow/winter tire argument? It is definitely not apples to oranges.

The primary issue is not each of our cars, but the environment. If we were completely alone on the roads, all-season tires might indeed be sufficient in many more winter situations. However, winter is the time when skids and loss of control among other drivers increase dramatically. What is the ratio in your area of cars spinning across a highway, unable to stop at an intersection, or sliding into ditches in the summer versus winter? Up here, the difference is huge. We're doing reasonably well 3 seasons out of the year.

If 3 season driving were as filled with external risks to the degree winter is, perhaps we would need improved 3 season tires, but we don't see folks unable to stop and turn, or simply maintain control in a straight path (if not driving recklessly to begin with). But, even if you are being the most cautious driver, your ability to maintain control without winter tires for that one season is dramatically compromised if some other vehicle suddenly appears in your path. That simply does not happen anywhere close to that same degree at other times of the year.

You are fortunate not to have had such a situation yet. But, under the same philosophy that has most of us maintain fire insurance, but never had a house burn down, we find it wise to be a bit more cautious in the one season which stands out for greater risk.

[Dylan86]

I don't think I could drive my car in the winter here, even if I wanted to

[TWO-BMW]

Originally Posted by jpnh

I'm looking at a 230/m240 RWD and am in fact one of those people who live in a snow/ice belt a bit north of you in central NH

I also live on a wicked hill and am looking for a reality check from folks that really do drive a RWD 2 series in REAL snow.

Am seriously considering a set of Hakka 7/8's that are studded and carrying a set of snow cables/chains

I can avoid the majority of tough days by driving a 4x4 but.....

I'm in Michigan, but also live on a significant hill, and have a series of smaller hills to ascend to reach the one I live on. Honestly, I would go with the M235/240 AWD. I have the advantage of a former friend and co-worker who now manages a major BMW dealership in the area. I spent many hours over an entire week comparing the RWD model to the AWD and the difference is very. very small, and would not show up in anything meaningful except for the track.

Forget the studded snow tires and chains which destroy any winter driving enjoyment, and simply buy the AWD 235/240, and put a good set of high performance snows on it.

[TWO-BMW]

Originally Posted by Dylan86

I don't think I could drive my car in the winter here, even if I wanted to

LOL, I've traveled near where you live, and I agree!

[TWO-BMW]

I may now have a change in situation that I can see it potentially altering my requirements for the winter tires to a degree. And would appreciate your thoughts. I was called into my boss's office yesterday, and informed that both he, I, and our department are being outsourced by the corporation. I am only there to assist in transition until November 1st. Then I am being pushed into early retirement. All things considered, it's not a bad thing given where I am, though still a bit of a shock.

Based on that I will not be in a position where I have to navigate through snowstorms to get to and from work, I can sit home and wait them out. I certainly won't be driving near as much since there will be no five day a week work commute. When I do travel up and down the significant hill that I live on, and the ones that lead to it, it will likely always be when the roads are cleared or at least, in the case of my hill, is surfaced with a solid, packed down snow base. In a perfect world, I would like the highest performance winter tires possible to allow me to enjoy the M235i's handling and braking on the 75% or more days where the roads are dry, or no more than wet. Now I only need to balance that with selected trips out onto the roads, of my choice. I'm thinking that should ease the requirements a bit more to less hard core winter tires. I'm thinking it may open the doors to the Sottozero 3, or most likely, the Pilot Alpin. Am I right?

I would appreciate any thoughts as to my best option given what I have described above. Thanks.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by TWO-BMW

I may now have a change in situation that I can see it potentially altering my requirements for the winter tires to a degree. And would appreciate your thoughts. I was called into my boss's office yesterday, and informed that both he, I, and our department are being outsourced by the corporation. I am only there to assist in transition until November 1st. Then I am being pushed into early retirement. All things considered, it's not a bad thing given where I am, though still a bit of a shock.

Based on that I will not be in a position where I have to navigate through snowstorms to get to and from work, I can sit home and wait them out. I certainly won't be driving near as much since there will be no five day a week work commute. When I do travel up and down the significant hill that I live on, and the ones that lead to it, it will likely always be when the roads are cleared or at least, in the case of my hill, is surfaced with a solid, packed down snow base. In a perfect world, I would like the highest performance winter tires possible to allow me to enjoy the M235i's handling and braking on the 75% or more days where the roads are dry, or no more than wet. Now I only need to balance that with selected trips out onto the roads, of my choice. I'm thinking that should ease the requirements a bit more to less hard core winter tires. I'm thinking it may open the doors to the Sottozero 3, or most likely, the Pilot Alpin. Am I right?

I would appreciate any thoughts as to my best option given what I have described above. Thanks.

This path sounds so familiar! I also early-retired, but back in 2008 when the bottom fell out of the industry. I started a new job working from home, so when I bought the 2, I also did not need to go out on bad winter days, and I also have a hill up to our house from the street. But, my approach/attitude is different from yours, and I prioritized being able to get out if/when I had to, even if ahead of the plows, over performance driving style in the winter, so I bought Blizzak WS. With your priorities and preferences, the Alpin would be my choice, as I do have a bias in favor of Michelin based on product quality.

My situation changed, as I was recruited to an office job again. I decided that I wanted to spare my 2 the risks and rigors of being in the snow/ice/salt, as it has been pointed out that we may be seeing the last of the choices of manual transmission cars....so I got a winter car (Subaru Crosstrek on Bridgestone KO2 in winter - snowflake all-terrain), so I didn't even put on my winter setup on the 2 this past season. Haven't decided to sell them, as I like to have the capability available, just in case.....there's a pattern to my thinking!!! LOL!

[Transfer]

Here's how much I like my PA4 on VMR setup... I actually look forward to mounting my winter set. 225 front 255 rear and handles and grips like a dream in cold wet, dry, and snow. Like PSS for the winter.

And BTW they do not wander in the slightest.

[shark715]

Originally Posted by Transfer

And BTW they do not wander in the slightest.

I assume the comment was directed at me.

I realize that it appears I'm the only one who is experiencing the wandering, but unfortunately that has not helped me resolve the issue.

The one thing I did do differently than you was not to go with the staggered size tires on the staggered wheels.

Could that be causing the issue? I would be surprised if that's the case, especially since we are talking about the rear tires only, but at this point I don't know what else the solution might be. Again, this is not just a minor amount of wandering...pretty much anyone driving the car would notice it.

[Sportstick]

If anyone is still looking for a winter set-up, especially around Michigan, please go and check out the Classifieds!

[Transfer]

Originally Posted by shark715

I assume the comment was directed at me.

I realize that it appears I'm the only one who is experiencing the wandering, but unfortunately that has not helped me resolve the issue.

The one thing I did do differently than you was not to go with the staggered size tires on the staggered wheels.

Could that be causing the issue? I would be surprised if that's the case, especially since we are talking about the rear tires only, but at this point I don't know what else the solution might be. Again, this is not just a minor amount of wandering...pretty much anyone driving the car would notice it.

You must have a bad set or wheel issue or something.

[TWO-BMW]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

If anyone is still looking for a winter set-up, especially around Michigan, please go and check out the Classifieds!

Agreed. This is an excellent deal for someone!


JC

[TWO-BMW]

Originally Posted by shark715

The one thing I did do differently than you was not to go with the staggered size tires on the staggered wheels. Could that be causing the issue? .

I asked a friend who is an extremely knowledgeable automotive engineer about this, and he feels there is at least a significant chance this is causing your issues.

JC

[TWO-BMW]

Originally Posted by Transfer

Here's how much I like my PA4 on VMR setup... I actually look forward to mounting my winter set. 225 front 255 rear and handles and grips like a dream in cold wet, dry, and snow. Like PSS for the winter.

And BTW they do not wander in the slightest.

Thanks for the input. Sounds like I've nailed down my choice (only wish they weren't quite so expensive).

JC

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by TWO-BMW

I asked a friend who is an extremely knowledgeable automotive engineer about this, and he feels there is at least a significant chance this is causing your issues.

JC

This is highly speculative and I doubt it. I've successfully used a square tire set-up on staggered rims with no issues. This car needs a more thorough root cause analysis. I would suggest avoiding staggered winter tires as it causes one pair to be wider than necessary, directionally incorrect for winter.

[TWO-BMW]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

This is highly speculative and I doubt it. I've successfully used a square tire set-up on staggered rims with no issues. This car needs a more thorough root cause analysis. I would suggest avoiding staggered winter tires as it causes one pair to be wider than necessary, directionally incorrect for winter.

I can't disagree with any of the above. My friend was speculating based on some odd experiences he had come across, but was in no way certain. Just felt it was worth mentioning as a possibility. And your advice a thorough "root cause analysis" and for winter tires is dead on. A co-worker found that out the hard way last winter.

JC

[redontheline]

New shoes came in today. Tire Rack set - PA4s on 18" Enkeis. Impressively, I ordered midday Sunday.