[GSR Technik]

Originally Posted by 2msport

I agree with that train of thought.

I'm wondering however if you use the tune to take advantage of the 100 octane, and you get the extra power. Where is that extra power coming from? Increased boost? (potentially harmful) or Just better burn in the cylinders. (not harmful?) Or does it not matter and the extra power generated can be considered too much for the N20?

Since SoCalDave called me out on this question I will try to answer this one.

More octane allows you to be more aggressive with your tuning with less chance of detonation - explosion on the upstroke of the piston - no bueno. Higher octane primarily gives you a bigger bang and takes heat out of the explosion allowing you to adjust the two biggest things that increase power - timing and boost. Ethanol mixes increase octane and burn cooler but the downside is you need more volume compared to traditional fuels which can be a challenge with the limits of todays direct injection motors. We had to run 30% more Ignite 108 ethanol fuel in our pro drift car but we were able to get over 800 whp out of our S54.

The challenge is as you add more octane, more boost and more advanced timing your tune needs to be more precise - the margin of error gets very thin as things escalate. This is where one of the core debates starts - comparing ECU flash tuning and piggyback technologies - which one is technically more more precise as you get closer to the razors edge.

[GSR Technik]

Originally Posted by Charlie@McKennaBMWService

Based on the FASTA data, it clearly shows and indicates "vehicle tampering" was one of the main suspects, as stated previously, nothing is undetectable... BMW's engineers that are highly trained and highly paid wouldn't let minor details slide so that enthusiasts can alter their design and/or creation if you will. Whether the JB4 was on at the time or removed before brought in, the blackbox/module logs everything down to date and time, mileage, driving speeds, engine temperatures, whether or not if the vehicle exceeded governed speed limits, or even over boosted for that matter. Nothing is undetectable if a more detailed search or diagnosis was needed from the TSE.

-EDIT-

Mind you that the OP is a good friend/colleague of mine, but unfortunately I have to play out my hired role as a BMW employee in the service department, and unfortunately the OP has to deal with the hand he is dealt... He knew well aware that by pushing the N20 to it's breaking limits would result in such catastrophic events.

Charlie, thanks so much for engaging the community.

This is what we think we know about the FASTA data logs and the latest Flexray based ECUs.

The FASTA logs are not logging all data 100% of the time. If they were that's a crap load of data and you would need a couple of RAID storage arrays in your trunk to store all the data that would be generated between dealer visits.

I won’t get into what CARB is trying to do out here in CA where they are proposing a system that would constantly monitor emissions, transmit that data from your car and automatically generate a notice and/or fine if you are out of compliance. I’ll let the privacy advocates tackle that one.

FASTA data capture is event based, so something happens that is outside of a parameter which then captures a certain set of data based on logic built into the system. FASTA logging can also be turned on as part of a diagnostic function at the dealer using Group Tester 1 that logs all kinds of data and is typically uploaded to BMW AG for data warehousing and analysis.

Now since FASTA data capture is event based, if you change the parameters within the ECU code that is triggering the event the data never gets logged as part of the FASTA data set. Now this is heavily dependent on the knowledge of the tuner. Most of the competitor tuner files we have seen change about 30 variables, ours typically involve more than 130 changes, many of these related not to tuning but eliminating events that trigger data sets that get recorded in the FASTA logs.

Now the piggyback fan boys out there that say ECU flash tunes are totally detectable and piggyback tunes can in no way be detected are full of sh!& and really don’t know what the hell they are talking about. The auto clear function in some of those systems is clearing codes out of the ODBII messaging framework but all of that is being recorded as part of the FASTA data sets. Any parameter that the ECU sees as outside of a particular min/max bound is potentially being recorded in the FASTA data set. And I can say there are a lot of events that are setup to trigger based on all kinds of variables the ECU is monitoring.

I can say with some confidence that I think we are doing a pretty good job in understanding these new ECUs, how they behave, what events are generating data sets and how to safely get power out of them while leveraging a lot of the safety features already built into the ECU. I can’t say with 100% confidence that we’ve figured out all the things that would generate data that gets captured and reported via the dealer systems. I do feel the piggyback systems are more exposed to the FASTA logs than our tunes.

With all our customers I’ve maintained that there are empirical tests that can be done on a car that will demonstrate if certain things have been changed with physical access to the car - things such as driving a car beyond the speed limiter or physically logging boost. Also if a tuned ECU is sent to embedded systems engineer familiar with the ECU code they can determine what binary blocks have been changed.

I’d also say there are a lot of crappy ECU tuners (some good) but mostly unknowledgeable that have acquired the technology and stole or bought files from someone else but really don’t know what they are doing. I think that is definitely one of the downsides of being in the ECU flash business – a lot of tuners trying to "fake it til they make it." The benefit of being in the piggyback business is the barrier of entry is much higher because it involves hardware expertise and manufacturing which is not easy to fake.

I also stand by my previous statement that ECU tuning is a far better way to tune than piggyback (technically) when it comes down to the core tune BUT piggyback systems have the ability to add some really cool features that are impossible to implement within an ECU flash tune like gauge hijacking and map switching for things like fuel scaling.

Nick…

[Thescout13]

Originally Posted by Charlie@McKennaBMWService

What's up Nick, you are absolutely right in your first statement about FASTA data capturing eventful or uneventful situations, it's not to say that the EIS module is constantly logging but more so starts to log data once the DME detects irregularities in the management system.

Agreed, in my many years of building and tuning cars, never was there a time where I considered piggybacks as sufficient tunes, but more so a cheap method of getting away with just the basics...

I too thought to myself that I had a relatively clear understanding of ECU's and how they operate until I realized how advanced BMW/MBZ ECU's were and how difficult they are to "crack" per say... For example look at how long it took companies like Dinan to come out with a tuner for the F10 M5, a vehicle that has been out since fall/winter of 2012.

Agreed that a complete ECU reflash is way more beneficial and stable versus a piggyback, now having come from tinkering with Subaru STi's in the past, I know that piggybacks can be "okay" if the maps loaded on let's say the COBB Accessport is loaded with actual protuned maps versus off the shelf "whored" out maps.

Which is the only reason why I say that the JB4 is a shotty product because I've yet to hear a client say that they've visited BMS's facility to perform dyno runs to get protuned maps loaded onto the actual JB4. What I hear most often is that the owner whose name I will leave out of this conversation, will typically request that the user submit their logs to him so that he may inspect and revamp the tune thru via email/data logging, which IMO is a joke... Never in the history of tuning was data logging a viable source of tuning, screw that pay the extra money and take the extra time to get the vehicle dialed in on a dyno is the only way I know how tuning should be done...

But COBB isn't a piggyback? I had COBB on my previous STI and EVO X and it is a straight ECU flash tune not a piggyback in the sense a Jb4 is. I'm almost positive I'm right on this one.

"Loading a map" onto the JB4 would not be like you used to on the COBB. They are completely different systems. The COBB maps were ECU flashes, while the piggyback is just that a piggy back, a bypass. You can't just load a pro tune map onto a Jb4 that will flash the ECU.

The best example is the N54 where you can run a COBB map with a JB4 because the COBB is a flash tune whereas the Jb4 gives you ability to change boost control and guage fun.

I just do not see how you can compare the two as the same and say one is shit when they are both very different approaches to achieving more power. Apples and oranges.

Not trying to knock you or hate. I just want to clarify the distinction here. They are two different things, and an ECU flash is always better.

[alz0rz]

Originally Posted by Thescout13

But COBB isn't a piggyback? I had COBB on my previous STI and EVO X and it is a straight ECU flash tune not a piggyback in the sense a Jb4 is. I'm almost positive I'm right on this one.

"Loading a map" onto the JB4 would not be like you used to on the COBB. They are completely different systems. The COBB maps were ECU flashes, while the piggyback is just that a piggy back, a bypass. You can't just load a pro tune map onto a Jb4 that will flash the ECU.

The best example is the N54 where you can run a COBB map with a JB4 because the COBB is a flash tune whereas the Jb4 gives you ability to change boost control and guage fun.

I just do not see how you can compare the two as the same and say one is shit when they are both very different approaches to achieving more power. Apples and oranges.

Not trying to knock you or hate. I just want to clarify the distinction here. They are two different things, and an ECU flash is always better.

He is saying actually having a TUNER customize the map for YOUR car as opposed to running the Off the shelf map that comes with an Accessport. This is know as a 'ProTune'. In this case, a true ProTune w/ the Cobb AP would be better than an OTS Cobb AP map which is much better than an piggyback (JB4).

[Thescout13]

Originally Posted by alz0rz

He is saying actually having a TUNER customize the map for YOUR car as opposed to running the Off the shelf map that comes with an Accessport. This is know as a 'ProTune'. In this case, a true ProTune w/ the Cobb AP would be better than an OTS Cobb AP map which is much better than an piggyback (JB4).

No yeah I get the distinction I have had multiple pro tunes before done by a local shop. But COBB is still not a piggyback. That's what I was trying to get across. My bad.

I 100% believe that a pro tune for your specific car is the best possible thing. But that is still an ECU Flash not a piggy back. And to top it off GSR doesn't even pro tune. It's the same off the shelf flash for every N20 it's not a individual engine specific tune for each individual car.

Either way the point I was trying to make was that COBB is not a piggyback and it does not equal a JB4 even when you do not consider what maps are used. Period. COBB gave users the ability to flash it themselves. But it's still a flash. It's no different than GSR in the sense that it is an ECU Flash. Now I will say I think GSR's tech and tune is miles ahead of any off the shelf COBB ones that existed. I'm not trying to equate COBBs shitty off the shelf tunes with GSR either.

But for those who do not understand the difference it's worth the clarification. Not trying to hurt feelings here. Just wanted to clarify a point which I feel was getting conflated.

But the lesson from Charlie is still very very true, specific tunes for your specific engine in your specific car is the best possible route. Period. Off the shelf ECU flash like GSR is the next best thing. Something COBB like that doesn't exist for our engine yet would be next. And then a piggy back. That's the order of best for your individual car if you want to push it to its limits.

[Charlie@McKennaBMWService]

Originally Posted by Thescout13

But COBB isn't a piggyback? I had COBB on my previous STI and EVO X and it is a straight ECU flash tune not a piggyback in the sense a Jb4 is. I'm almost positive I'm right on this one.

"Loading a map" onto the JB4 would not be like you used to on the COBB. They are completely different systems. The COBB maps were ECU flashes, while the piggyback is just that a piggy back, a bypass. You can't just load a pro tune map onto a Jb4 that will flash the ECU.

The best example is the N54 where you can run a COBB map with a JB4 because the COBB is a flash tune whereas the Jb4 gives you ability to change boost control and guage fun.

I just do not see how you can compare the two as the same and say one is shit when they are both very different approaches to achieving more power. Apples and oranges.

Not trying to knock you or hate. I just want to clarify the distinction here. They are two different things, and an ECU flash is always better.

Well I only say that the AP is 'like' a piggyback or a method of having a map or multiple maps stored on a 'programmer' versus an entire ECU reflash without the use of an AP/JB4 if you catch my drift. You are absolutely right, I think the AP is far more advanced than a JB, having used both they are far in between from each other, and yeah ultimately it's apples and oranges in regards to different products that store maps or have maps with the usage of the OBD2 port or whether or not the programmer plugs into the DME.

[Thescout13]

Originally Posted by Charlie@McKennaBMWService

Well I only say that the AP is 'like' a piggyback or a method of having a map or multiple maps stored on a 'programmer' versus an entire ECU reflash without the use of an AP/JB4 if you catch my drift. You are absolutely right, I think the AP is far more advanced than a JB, having used both they are far in between from each other, and yeah ultimately it's apples and oranges in regards to different products that store maps or have maps with the usage of the OBD2 port or whether or not the programmer plugs into the DME.

Gotcha. Thanks for the contribution!

[2msport]

Originally Posted by Thescout13

No yeah I get the distinction I have had multiple pro tunes before done by a local shop. But COBB is still not a piggyback. That's what I was trying to get across. My bad.

I 100% believe that a pro tune for your specific car is the best possible thing. But that is still an ECU Flash not a piggy back. And to top it off GSR doesn't even pro tune. It's the same off the shelf flash for every N20 it's not a individual engine specific tune for each individual car.

Either way the point I was trying to make was that COBB is not a piggyback and it does not equal a JB4 even when you do not consider what maps are used. Period. COBB gave users the ability to flash it themselves. But it's still a flash. It's no different than GSR in the sense that it is an ECU Flash. Now I will say I think GSR's tech and tune is miles ahead of any off the shelf COBB ones that existed. I'm not trying to equate COBBs shitty off the shelf tunes with GSR either.

But for those who do not understand the difference it's worth the clarification. Not trying to hurt feelings here. Just wanted to clarify a point which I feel was getting conflated.

But the lesson from Charlie is still very very true, specific tunes for your specific engine in your specific car is the best possible route. Period. Off the shelf ECU flash like GSR is the next best thing. Something COBB like that doesn't exist for our engine yet would be next. And then a piggy back. That's the order of best for your individual car if you want to push it to its limits.

Thank you for taking the time to explain that in detail.

[GSR Technik]

Originally Posted by Thescout13

And to top it off GSR doesn't even pro tune. It's the same off the shelf flash for every N20 it's not a individual engine specific tune for each individual car.

Just to clarify we do all our tuning in-house so if customers want a "pro" tune and want to pay for time on the dyno we will absolutely do that. We are expanding our baseline tune options such as track tunes that roll on torque much more linearly to make the car more driveable on the track. We've been working a lot on the M3/M4 track tune because our Time Attack Street Class M4 is almost undriveable on the track with 200 treadwear tires unless we tune down the low end torque.

Nick...

[Thescout13]

Originally Posted by GSR Autosport

Just to clarify we do all our tuning in-house so if customers want a "pro" tune and want to pay for time on the dyno we will absolutely do that. We are expanding our baseline tune options such as track tunes that roll on torque much more linearly to make the car more driveable on the track. We've been working a lot on the M3/M4 track tune because our Time Attack Street Class M4 is almost undriveable on the track with 200 treadwear tires unless we tune down the low end torque.

Nick...

Jesus that sounds insane haha!

And great to know you offer pro tunes as well. Way to be the best in the game. Can't wait to hear what else comes out of your mad genius shop.

[Silvermike]

Originally Posted by GSR Autosport

Just to clarify we do all our tuning in-house so if customers want a "pro" tune and want to pay for time on the dyno we will absolutely do that. We are expanding our baseline tune options such as track tunes that roll on torque much more linearly to make the car more driveable on the track. We've been working a lot on the M3/M4 track tune because our Time Attack Street Class M4 is almost undriveable on the track with 200 treadwear tires unless we tune down the low end torque.

Nick...

i wish i were in the US. I would totally go for one of these pro tunes...

[Stubok]

Originally Posted by GSR Autosport

Hey guys, sorry Gilbert for your loss. Dancin' with the devil man. Some of you may not know GSR but we are developing the 228 for Pirelli World Challenge TCA class and are also the homologating team so we are submitting all the paperwork along with requested changes to the rules. As part of this we are doing a lot of testing to back up our justification for changes because the rules are pretty limited as far as allowable changes to keep costs down. We expect the development of the first car including testing will cost about $250,000 all in with probably $50k spent on the motor alone.

We have been beating the hell out of our little 228, testing cooling, oiling, brakes, suspension, and of course drivetrain. One day we saw 117 degrees out at Chuckwalla last summer. The car as proven to be pretty durable, more than we expected given what we have done to it. Of course, since this is a race car development program the idea of warranty was never even a consideration when we were abusing our little beast. The reason we go to this level of testing is our gentlemen driver customers not only want to win, they REALLY don't want to go home early - they are paying North of $15,000 per weekend and they value their time even higher so if something breaks they are not very happy and if it happens more than once or twice we don't have a customer anymore that is typically spending $100,000 or more a year to go racing.

So with that said we have discovered two primary flaws with the motor. There are oiling issues with heavy right lateral loads especially under braking. In some instances oil pressure will drop to zero. Next are the rod bolts. Under heavy load they stretch leading to rod failure. We had been bumping up the hp/torque on our car... North of 400wtq we finally saw this - literally - here's a piece of our case to prove it. This was the failure some of you saw at Bimmerfest. Coming out of Turn 9, short shifting into third to reduce wheel spin, at 3,500 RPM (peak torque) boom.

[IMG]http://www.gsrautosport.com/Bimmerpost1/Case.jpg" rel="ugc" target="_blank">http://<a href="http://www.gsrautosp...1/Case.jpg</a>[/IMG]

Now we will never be running this much torque/hp in PWC but we will have to deal with some of our customers missing a few shifts which puts similar loads on the motor.

We'll be documenting the failure on multiple threads/sites once we have finished the analysis and taken all the supporting pictures. More on the positive side, we'll be publishing the build of the new race motor - the S20 we all wish BMW built for the M2.

Obviously we are not selling a Stage 3 kit for the N20/N26 without bottom end upgrades that are part of the race engine build we are doing now, hopefully getting back to testing soon. We've also tuned down the initial torque peak on both Stage 2 and Stage 1 tunes for these motors.

On a positive not, although the gearing is whacked, the manual transmission has held up through all this which we thought would be one of the first things to go.

Follow our main 228 thread for updates on our #BMW228Racing program.

http://www.2addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1117222" rel="ugc" target="_blank">http://<a href="http://www.2addicts....?t=1117222</a>" rel="ugc" target="_blank">http://<a href="http://<a href="http...117222</a></a>

After taking a break, I'll tackle the ECU tuning topics. Phew.

Nick...

Nick great information man! Thanks for the contribution.

So what kind of bottom end upgrades are we taking about for stage 3? Oil baffles perhaps, and new rod bolts? Or do you think new forged rods and maybe pistons will be needed too?

Also as far the stage 3 flash is concerned, do you think limiting the boost and torque to 330 - 340 lbft is sensible given the auto tans and engine capabilities, and instead changing the turbo internals to provide more flow later in the rev range to achieve higher horsepower.

Do you think 340lbft/340whp is an achievable goal?

[CalCarNut]

One of the best discussions I think I've read here yet. Thanks to Nick/GSR and Charlie @ McKenna for their feedback on this topic.

[VMRWheels]

Originally Posted by SoCalDave

One of the best discussions I think I've read here yet. Thanks to Nick/GSR and Charlie @ McKenna for their feedback on this topic.

+ 1 Great info in this thread

GSR Autosport Charlie@McKennaBMWService Thanks for all the input guys

[Charlie@McKennaBMWService]

Originally Posted by SoCalDave

One of the best discussions I think I've read here yet. Thanks to Nick/GSR and Charlie @ McKenna for their feedback on this topic.

Always a pleasure to be of service! Whatever inside information I can provide I will never hesitate in doing so!

[GSR Technik]

Originally Posted by SoCalDave

One of the best discussions I think I've read here yet. Thanks to Nick/GSR and Charlie @ McKenna for their feedback on this topic.

Cheers.

[FSociety]

Originally Posted by GSR Autosport

Charlie, thanks so much for engaging the community.

This is what we think we know about the FASTA data logs and the latest Flexray based ECUs.

The FASTA logs are not logging all data 100% of the time. If they were that's a crap load of data and you would need a couple of RAID storage arrays in your trunk to store all the data that would be generated between dealer visits.

I won’t get into what CARB is trying to do out here in CA where they are proposing a system that would constantly monitor emissions, transmit that data from your car and automatically generate a notice and/or fine if you are out of compliance. I’ll let the privacy advocates tackle that one.

FASTA data capture is event based, so something happens that is outside of a parameter which then captures a certain set of data based on logic built into the system. FASTA logging can also be turned on as part of a diagnostic function at the dealer using Group Tester 1 that logs all kinds of data and is typically uploaded to BMW AG for data warehousing and analysis.

Now since FASTA data capture is event based, if you change the parameters within the ECU code that is triggering the event the data never gets logged as part of the FASTA data set. Now this is heavily dependent on the knowledge of the tuner. Most of the competitor tuner files we have seen change about 30 variables, ours typically involve more than 130 changes, many of these related not to tuning but eliminating events that trigger data sets that get recorded in the FASTA logs.

Now the piggyback fan boys out there that say ECU flash tunes are totally detectable and piggyback tunes can in no way be detected are full of sh!& and really don’t know what the hell they are talking about. The auto clear function in some of those systems is clearing codes out of the ODBII messaging framework but all of that is being recorded as part of the FASTA data sets. Any parameter that the ECU sees as outside of a particular min/max bound is potentially being recorded in the FASTA data set. And I can say there are a lot of events that are setup to trigger based on all kinds of variables the ECU is monitoring.

I can say with some confidence that I think we are doing a pretty good job in understanding these new ECUs, how they behave, what events are generating data sets and how to safely get power out of them while leveraging a lot of the safety features already built into the ECU. I can’t say with 100% confidence that we’ve figured out all the things that would generate data that gets captured and reported via the dealer systems. I do feel the piggyback systems are more exposed to the FASTA logs than our tunes.

With all our customers I’ve maintained that there are empirical tests that can be done on a car that will demonstrate if certain things have been changed with physical access to the car - things such as driving a car beyond the speed limiter or physically logging boost. Also if a tuned ECU is sent to embedded systems engineer familiar with the ECU code they can determine what binary blocks have been changed.

I’d also say there are a lot of crappy ECU tuners (some good) but mostly unknowledgeable that have acquired the technology and stole or bought files from someone else but really don’t know what they are doing. I think that is definitely one of the downsides of being in the ECU flash business – a lot of tuners trying to "fake it til they make it." The benefit of being in the piggyback business is the barrier of entry is much higher because it involves hardware expertise and manufacturing which is not easy to fake.

I also stand by my previous statement that ECU tuning is a far better way to tune than piggyback (technically) when it comes down to the core tune BUT piggyback systems have the ability to add some really cool features that are impossible to implement within an ECU flash tune like gauge hijacking and map switching for things like fuel scaling.

Nick…

Originally Posted by Charlie@McKennaBMWService

What's up Nick, you are absolutely right in your first statement about FASTA data capturing eventful or uneventful situations, it's not to say that the EIS module is constantly logging but more so starts to log data once the DME detects irregularities in the management system.

Agreed, in my many years of building and tuning cars, never was there a time where I considered piggybacks as sufficient tunes, but more so a cheap method of getting away with just the basics...

I too thought to myself that I had a relatively clear understanding of ECU's and how they operate until I realized how advanced BMW/MBZ ECU's were and how difficult they are to "crack" per say... For example look at how long it took companies like Dinan to come out with a tuner for the F10 M5, a vehicle that has been out since fall/winter of 2012.

Agreed that a complete ECU reflash is way more beneficial and stable versus a piggyback, now having come from tinkering with Subaru STi's in the past, I know that piggybacks can be "okay" if the maps loaded on let's say the COBB Accessport is loaded with actual protuned maps versus off the shelf "whored" out maps.

Which is the only reason why I say that the JB4 is a shotty product because I've yet to hear a client say that they've visited BMS's facility to perform dyno runs to get protuned maps loaded onto the actual JB4. What I hear most often is that the owner whose name I will leave out of this conversation, will typically request that the user submit their logs to him so that he may inspect and revamp the tune thru via email/data logging, which IMO is a joke... Never in the history of tuning was data logging a viable source of tuning, screw that pay the extra money and take the extra time to get the vehicle dialed in on a dyno is the only way I know how tuning should be done...

Originally Posted by GSR Autosport

Cheers.

+1

Originally Posted by Charlie@McKennaBMWService

Always a pleasure to be of service! Whatever inside information I can provide I will never hesitate in doing so!

+1

I wish I lived in SoCal, GSR Autosport Charlie@McKennaBMWService I am really happy there's people like you folks because WE need it, please don't change.

[Charlie@McKennaBMWService]

Originally Posted by ROBNYC

I wish I lived in SoCal, GSR Autosport Charlie@McKennaBMWService I am really happy there's people like you folks because WE need it, please don't change.

SoCal is the best Cal, hahaha I kid... Thanks for the kind words.

[xtlwulf]

about to move to CA

[Charlie@McKennaBMWService]

Originally Posted by xtlwulf

about to move to CA

Make it happen and move to LA or OC.

[CalCarNut]

Originally Posted by xtlwulf

about to move to CA

Great. Bring rain/water, will ya?

[e46m3lol]

Some of the valve train parts started arriving today. We'll be replacing all the valves and valves springs.

*as of now we still haven't taken off the head*