[Charlie@McKennaBMWService]

Originally Posted by alz0rz

Whether people alter their 'design or creation' is not the point. It's whether the warranty will pay for it. You say $50K for a car or $10K for a car, it is yours and you should be able to do as you please with it.

You have a valid point, as a consumer you're entitled to modifying it however you please... But how can one expect BMW to pay for "damages" as a direct result of vehicle negligence in terms of modifying the engine beyond the point of what the vehicle is capable of let alone suited for... The old fashion saying "you gotta pay to play" comes into terms for the OP's case, boils down to risk versus reward.

[Charlie@McKennaBMWService]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

This is not going to get anywhere. You keep saying it is detectable i keep saying then why didnt the report mention the piggyback? they mentioned the turbo and downpipes because they could see them. JB4 fools the ECU into thinking that boost is normal, so all the data stored will have normal boost values.
At the end of the day, this is very unfortunate to OP. Sorry to hear that and i wish you better luck in the future.

That's only page one, as I am sure it's stated on there, nonetheless not every detailed fact has to be noted for a warranty claim to be denied, the amount of bolt on modifications is suffice. How confident are you in saying that the "JB4 fools the ECU" because for the sake of argument that is FAR from the truth... The FASTA data shows how many time a/OP's vehicle has been launched in launch control, how fast the vehicle has been driven passed governed speeds, shows the levels of boost the engine has targeted passed factory parameters. Now tell me again how the JB4(a shotty product IMO) fools the DME? Bare in mind you're undermining the vehicles completely advanced engineering from BMW...

[xtlwulf]

Originally Posted by Charlie@McKennaBMWService

You have a valid point, as a consumer you're entitled to modifying it however you please... But how can one expect BMW to pay for "damages" as a direct result of vehicle negligence in terms of modifying the engine beyond the point of what the vehicle is capable of let alone suited for... The old fashion saying "you gotta pay to play" comes into terms for the OP's case, boils down to risk versus reward.

didnt OP lease this vehicle ? if its a lease, then technically its not his car, no?
what would happen then?

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by Charlie@McKennaBMWService

That's only page one, as I am sure it's stated on there, nonetheless not every detailed fact has to be noted for a warranty claim to be denied, the amount of bolt on modifications is suffice. How confident are you in saying that the "JB4 fools the ECU" because for the sake of argument that is FAR from the truth... The FASTA data shows how many time a/OP's vehicle has been launched in launch control, how fast the vehicle has been drive passed governed speeds, shows the levels of boost the engine has targeted passed factory parameters. Now tell me again how the JB4(a shotty product IMO) fools the DME? Bare in mind you're undermining the vehicles completely adlvanced engineering from BMW...

Not sure how launch control, speed of the vehicle can be linked to a tune.
Sounds like you are turning this into a JB4 bashing for personal reason.
Here is a screenshot of ECU boost vs actual boost
Notice that boost is 10 psi off

[Charlie@McKennaBMWService]

Originally Posted by xtlwulf

didnt OP lease this vehicle ? if its a lease, then technically its not his car, no?
what would happen then?

That's a great question, that's something we're still scratching our heads about... Not quite sure what's going to happen TBH...

[Charlie@McKennaBMWService]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

Not sure how launch control, speed of the vehicle can be linked to a tune.
Sounds like you are turning this into a JB4 bashing for personal reason.
Here is a screenshot of ECU boost vs actual boost
Notice that boost is 10 psi off

That's just an Excel spreadsheet Mike, what does that have anything to do with what we're able to see from our technical side? Not "bashing" the product Mike, but based on a business point of view and the volume of clients I get on a weekly basis about the inconsistencies the product provides is my point... A lot of clients are led to believe that their vehicles are triggering check engine malfunctions or drivetrain malfunctions as a direct result of a faulty BMW component. But that too is far from the truth, I instruct clients in MOST cases to put their vehicles back to stack, remove the JB4, clear the faults and perform several drive cycles for the I/M monitors to reset. Low behold once all that's been done, no more malfunctions...

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by Charlie@McKennaBMWService

That's just an Excel spreadsheet Mike, what does that have anything to do with what we're able to see from our technical side? Not "bashing" the product Mike, but based on a business point of view and the volume of clients I get on a weekly basis about the inconsistencies the product provides is my point... A lot of client are led to believe that their vehicles are triggering check engine malfunctions or drivetrain malfunctions as a direct result of a faulty BMW component. But that too is far from the truth, I instruct clients in MOST cases to put their vehicles back to stack, remove the JB4, clear the faults and perform several drive cycles for the I/M monitors to reset. Low behold once all that's been done, no more malfunctions...

This is the log on my car not just an excel sheet. These are the numbers that are recorded by the ECU. It proves that ECU thinks that car is running 7 psi when it is hitting 18 psi.
Once the report says there is a JB4 and boost over stock has been recorded then i will agree with you that BMW did detect it.
So far all i see is a report that says there is an aftermarket turbo and catless downpipes, nothing about the JB4 or any recorded psi over stock limit.
I will have to go now, we will just agree to disagree .

[mike@tpc]

Originally Posted by xtlwulf

didnt OP lease this vehicle ? if its a lease, then technically its not his car, no?
what would happen then?

I would imagine he would keep it until the lease end and park it, and then they would charge him the cost of the engine for wear and tear when he turned it in.

[pikcachu]

funny that they checked and adjusted tire pressure

he might have been using aftermarket air too...

[xtlwulf]

Originally Posted by pikcachu

funny that they checked and adjusted tire pressure

he might have been using aftermarket air too...

aftermarket air = +2 HP

[CalCarNut]

Originally Posted by Charlie@McKennaBMWService

Based on the FASTA data, it clearly shows and indicates "vehicle tampering" was one of the main suspects, as stated previously, nothing is undetectable... BMW's engineers that are highly trained and highly paid wouldn't let minor details slide so that enthusiasts can alter their design and/or creation if you will. Whether the JB4 was on at the time or removed before brought in, the blackbox/module logs everything down to date and time, mileage, driving speeds, engine temperatures, whether or not if the vehicle exceeded governed speed limits, or even over boosted for that matter. Nothing is undetectable if a more detailed search or diagnosis was needed from the TSE.

-EDIT-

Mind you that the OP is a good friend/colleague of mine, but unfortunately I have to play out my hired role as a BMW employee in the service department, and unfortunately the OP has to deal with the hand he is dealt... He knew well aware that by pushing the N20 to it's breaking limits would result in such catastrophic events.

I was under the impression that those black boxes (which have been around in some form I think since 2000) only record the last few minutes of a drive cycle. Is this incorrect?

[CalCarNut]

Charlie...could you disclose exactly what the FASTA reports on? I know I saw Launch control usage (which is fine since BMW provides it to the consumer and I doubt there is a limit on how many times we can utilize it) and if you've hit or exceed the speed limiter/governor (which would indicate I'm sure that something has been tweaked.). What else does it report on? I get what Mike is saying..based on the posts..its all been visual clues that did E46 in...and if the JB (?) system tricks the computer to thinking its running normal boost, then that paramet wouldn't throw up a red flag. I think we're all just trying to use this unfortunate incident as a learning example........

[CalCarNut]

Originally Posted by Charlie@McKennaBMWService

That's a great question, that's something we're still scratching our heads about... Not quite sure what's going to happen TBH...

Why would that matter? A leased vehicle is based on a contract...you get to drive it x miles...$/mile charge over and return it in x condition or pay for excessive wear and tear/repair/damage, etc. I don't understand what the question is........

[CalCarNut]

Appears that all the visual clues are the warranty killers (rightfully so unfortunately). GSR has stated that they've taken their cars to a dealer and the dealer could not detect any of their flash tuning. Ideally, I'd love to see a GSR car flash tuned car put to your FASTA test to see if it sneaks by....although they may have done this with their own dealer friend. I'm just looking at everything prior to pulling the trigger.......

[2msport]

I'm wondering if it was the aftermarket parts.. which one contributed the most to the failure. Lots of people have intakes and exhausts and lets be real, those alone wouldn't blow an engine. DP? doubt it. JB4 although provides the brains to get a large increase in HP, many many people have used them for a few years with little problem. e85? Seems lots of people have had good results with it with little problems but I could see this being higher on the list. Turbo upgrade? If I had to guess, and its only a guess, I think this would have put the biggest strain on the engine. I don't know the specifics of the Hex one used and how much PSI increase there was over stock but I would think its a decent amount. Or was it everything in tandem?

I feel like the JB4 with full bolt is somewhat common and trouble free.. So again, turbo upgrade?
What do you guys think?

[CalCarNut]

Originally Posted by 2msport

I'm wondering if it was the aftermarket parts.. which one contributed the most to the failure. Lots of people have intakes and exhausts and lets be real, those alone wouldn't blow an engine. DP? doubt it. JB4 although provides the brains to get a large increase in HP, many many people have used them for a few years with little problem. e85? Seems lots of people have had good results with it with little problems but I could see this being higher on the list. Turbo upgrade? If I had to guess, and its only a guess, I think this would have put the biggest strain on the engine. I don't know the specifics of the Hex one used and how much PSI increase there was over stock but I would think its a decent amount. Or was it everything in tandem?

I feel like the JB4 with full bolt is somewhat common and trouble free.. So again, turbo upgrade?
What do you guys think?

I'd point to the turbo upgrade myself..external add-ons without the 'necessary' internal upgrades doesn't equal a good outcome. The dealer would have to prove the bolt-ons did it..but I think the turbo would be it. The exhaust etc..if its Cat-back, doubt much could be said...and I don't think a CAI can be held accountable either as long as its ahead of the MAF/MAP sensor (sorry..I'm still learning the BMW system so I'm applying GM knowledge right or wrongfully at times.) I think there was just too many visual clues to sneak this one by........

[Charlie@McKennaBMWService]

Originally Posted by 2msport

JB4 although provides the brains to get a large increase in HP, many many people have used them for a few years with little problem. e85?

But how do you figure these vehicles are able to achieve such high numbers...? Based on what I know and my many years of building cars in the past, primary source of making additional if not a lot more HP is to be had by adjusting the AFR(as a start). As stated in my previous post/s, I get clients coming into my service department on a weekly basis having these irregular "issues" or concerns that aren't commonly seen on stock vehicles(135/335/535's). From my experience and based on what I tell my clients, I can only educate them and instruct them to do what's best for their vehicles and or best for us to efficiently troubleshoot the problems that they're having by simply putting everything back to stock and take it from there. Majority of the times my clients will not return with the same or if at all any "issues" so that's a clear indication that modifications(not always) will arguably increase the level of problems your vehicle can have...

[Charlie@McKennaBMWService]

Originally Posted by SoCalDave

I think there was just too many visual clues to sneak this one by........

That's precisely it...

[CalCarNut]

Originally Posted by Charlie@McKennaBMWService

What's up Dave, I used launch control to simply get a point across that there is no "tricking" FASTA data and that the blackbox module documents everything, and so far our ISID computer has been able to detect almost every tune(not all) in the market. As far as what else can be seen on the FASTA data, well that's a great question as well, and quite simply that any technical data needed or necessary is recorded and reported, so I say this to keep you enthusiasts in the loop simply for awareness reasons alone. Case and point being that you have to pay to play, obviously most of these piggyback tuners have disclaimers stating that it's purely for "off road" use only, if driven on daily basis on either of the map settings will inheritably increase the potential of engine failure(IMO)... I think people need to understand that tunes or tuners per say doesn't automatically warrant you safe from that, but more so have a clear understanding of what he/she is getting into when tinkering with the engine management system.

Totally appreciate your posts, Charlie...just trying to pick your brain. Maybe you and Nick @ GSR can get together and test a GSR-tuned (or not) car and see if your system can detect it? Like I said...Nick has previously said that their tunes weren't detectable..just wonder if what they had their car go through was what you were referring to.

I agree..you pay to play..but investigation/knowledge helps you pick your power and strategy when modifying these things. Post Warranty, it's a different ballgame...its just us vs the Smog laws by state...but of course we want our cake and eat it too (warranty)

Being in SoCal, McKenna isn't that far so I'm watching with interest with all this mod stuff......

[Charlie@McKennaBMWService]

Originally Posted by SoCalDave

Totally appreciate your posts, Charlie...just trying to pick your brain. Maybe you and Nick @ GSR can get together and test a GSR-tuned (or not) car and see if your system can detect it? Like I said...Nick has previously said that their tunes weren't detectable..just wonder if what they had their car go through was what you were referring to.

I agree..you pay to play..but investigation/knowledge helps you pick your power and strategy when modifying these things. Post Warranty, it's a different ballgame...its just us vs the Smog laws by state...but of course we want our cake and eat it too (warranty)

Being in SoCal, McKenna isn't that far so I'm watching with interest with all this mod stuff......

Only time will tell, I am not going to list the tunes so far that I've seen detected simply because I do not want to create conflicts of interest, but will voice my opinion when need be. Wanting cake and the ability to eat it too is a great analogy in this particular case! You're more than welcome to come visit my service department, believe me when I say that I'm an enthusiast at heart as well and can list a ton of vouches on my behalf, also I do what I can to help out the community.

[2msport]

Originally Posted by Charlie@McKennaBMWService

But how do you figure these vehicles are able to achieve such high numbers...? Based on what I know and my many years of building cars in the past, primary source of making additional if not a lot more HP is to be had by adjusting the AFR(as a start). As stated in my previous post/s, I get clients coming into my service department on a weekly basis having these irregular "issues" or concerns that aren't commonly seen on stock vehicles(135/335/535's). From my experience and based on what I tell my clients, I can only educate them and instruct them to do what's best for their vehicles and or best for us to efficiently troubleshoot the problems that they're having by simply putting everything back to stock and take it from there. Majority of the times my clients will not return with the same or if at all any "issues" so that's a clear indication that modifications(not always) will arguably increase the level of problems your vehicle can have...

Yeah I hear you. That makes sense. I guess I was just trying to see what people find safe/low risk? and whats going to attribute more to end up like e46m3lol. But it's safe to say, the more you add, the greater the chances for problems.

[2msport]

Originally Posted by SoCalDave

Totally appreciate your posts, Charlie...just trying to pick your brain. Maybe you and Nick @ GSR can get together and test a GSR-tuned (or not) car and see if your system can detect it? Like I said...Nick has previously said that their tunes weren't detectable..just wonder if what they had their car go through was what you were referring to.

I agree..you pay to play..but investigation/knowledge helps you pick your power and strategy when modifying these things. Post Warranty, it's a different ballgame...its just us vs the Smog laws by state...but of course we want our cake and eat it too (warranty)

Being in SoCal, McKenna isn't that far so I'm watching with interest with all this mod stuff......

I second that! Get nick in there.

BTW Dave, I had a 428 GC sport line loaner the other day. I was VERY impressed. I thought it would handle like the 3 but it doesn't. It's better. More planted and firm and the interior has a more sporty feel. And the trunk! It's basically a hatch. Best looking hatch to date Ok thats all, I don't want to hijack this tread.