[tonycouves]

hi Guys
First of all congrats on this great forum.

So lets get down to business.

I'm joseph and i live in Portugal.

I am a proud owner of a BMW 2Series Coupe but a diesel version
Yes they exist.
It s BMW 220d Sport version with Sport Automatic Gearbox,18'inch OEM wheels etc etc etc...If any more details are needed let me know

So i bought this car almost one year and a half. as it was second hand car with low mileage ( about 18 000 miles ).

I started to notice some vibration when i brake from 140km/h to 110km/h which almost disappears below this speed.

So this is what happened and what i've done so far.

1 - As wheels had some curb marks and scruffings and sent them to be repaired and repainted. when this was done, wheels were balanced so I figure this would fix the vibration. It didn't.

2 - When I went for a brake fluid change requested by the onboard computer, I went to the official dealer and complaint about this vibration.
Their solution has two front new discs, front brake pads and they told me the rear tyres were not so healthy. Got the discs and got the pads. Vibration still there.

3 - As i had the oportunity to change my tyres and get rid of the runflat tech, I replaced all 4 tires for Michelin Pilot Sport 4. Still vibrating.

4 - On another service on BMW dealer, again i have complaint about the vibration that was getting on my nerves and their solution was. New Rear Discs and new rear brake pads. It smoothen the vibration but it is still there.

Conclusion:
Driving along between 30 to 55 mph - you feel a relevant vibrating on the all car. Very subtle but its there.

Speeds between 62 and 85 - vibrating gets a bit noticeable (not that much) and you hear the hummm all around you, Again very subtle but you feel it and hear it. you think it s the road or the tires but no. There is a vibration.

Now, up the speed to 110 or more and the brake, not emergency braking but when you see the highway exit a bit late and have to brake a lillt hard. Here is where you can see the whole vibration, on steering wheel, on the seat everywhere along with a sound of the vibration ( strange but you can really hear it) etc.

Now, I have changed all discs, all bake pads, all 4 tires. My dealer says there are no problems with bushes, suspensions, coils, arms etc.
Of course they want me to put the car there to search deeply into the problem but every time we are replacing parts without been sure if that will fix the problem, its money coming out of my pocket.

So that is it.
I have a friend that was chief mechanic on a BMW Dealer which i will try to work with him on this on the next days.

But what do you guys think?
By the way… the car never crashed

Hope hearing form you guys soon

thanks for the help.

[hwntime]

Originally Posted by tonycouves

hi Guys
First of all congrats on this great forum.

So lets get down to business.

I'm joseph and i live in Portugal.

I am a proud owner of a BMW 2Series Coupe but a diesel version
Yes they exist.
It s BMW 220d Sport version with Sport Automatic Gearbox,18'inch OEM wheels etc etc etc...If any more details are needed let me know

So i bought this car almost one year and a half. as it was second hand car with low mileage ( about 18 000 miles ).

I started to notice some vibration when i brake from 140km/h to 110km/h which almost disappears below this speed.

So this is what happened and what i've done so far.

1 - As wheels had some curb marks and scruffings and sent them to be repaired and repainted. when this was done, wheels were balanced so I figure this would fix the vibration. It didn't.

2 - When I went for a brake fluid change requested by the onboard computer, I went to the official dealer and complaint about this vibration.
Their solution has two front new discs, front brake pads and they told me the rear tyres were not so healthy. Got the discs and got the pads. Vibration still there.

3 - As i had the oportunity to change my tyres and get rid of the runflat tech, I replaced all 4 tires for Michelin Pilot Sport 4. Still vibrating.

4 - On another service on BMW dealer, again i have complaint about the vibration that was getting on my nerves and their solution was. New Rear Discs and new rear brake pads. It smoothen the vibration but it is still there.

Conclusion:
Driving along between 30 to 55 mph - you feel a relevant vibrating on the all car. Very subtle but its there.

Speeds between 62 and 85 - vibrating gets a bit noticeable (not that much) and you hear the hummm all around you, Again very subtle but you feel it and hear it. you think it s the road or the tires but no. There is a vibration.

Now, up the speed to 110 or more and the brake, not emergency braking but when you see the highway exit a bit late and have to brake a lillt hard. Here is where you can see the whole vibration, on steering wheel, on the seat everywhere along with a sound of the vibration ( strange but you can really hear it) etc.

Now, I have changed all discs, all bake pads, all 4 tires. My dealer says there are no problems with bushes, suspensions, coils, arms etc.
Of course they want me to put the car there to search deeply into the problem but every time we are replacing parts without been sure if that will fix the problem, its money coming out of my pocket.

So that is it.
I have a friend that was chief mechanic on a BMW Dealer which i will try to work with him on this on the next days.

But what do you guys think?
By the way… the car never crashed

Hope hearing form you guys soon

thanks for the help.

Are you sure it's not the ABS kicking in? The way you're describing your braking technique leads me to believe that it's possibly the ABS pulsing. If the dealership mechanics can't replicate it, maybe it's because they're not slamming the brakes as hard as you. The only last thing I can think of is alignment? If the wheels were previously curbed, who knows how hard and if they knocked your alignment out. You changed out all your tires, brake discs, and pads but no mention of you doing an alignment.

[tonycouves]

Hi
In regards of alignment all have been done correctly
First time the wheels went for refurbish and paint they came and were aligned as per model specifications.
Wheels went to paint a second time due to some problems on the initial job appeared. Again the same alignment.

As for ABS I’m sure that’s not it since it vibrates without braking and when you do, it just escalates the vibration

When mechanic from the dealer came to me after replacing the rear discs and pads he told me that the problem was not 100% fixed but it was better.
It was on the initial testing I’ve made but you can t replicate all of your situations on a 10mintute ride.
As said this is something other then wheels or discs.
Some engine support , rear axel or gearbox support that is failing. I’m not a mechanic so I’m shooting theories.

When i spoke to my friend Bmw mechanic without letting him know what I have done, first thing he said was rear discs. He said if the vibration is on the chassi and not the steering wheel, it’s rear discs. He was suprised when o told him I had them replaced.

The problem is that this is leading me to sell the car and not choose Bmw anymore.

My wife drives Mercedes. She had 3 and now drives a C Coupe last model.
Never she had a problem like this in all of her cars and she does not handle them as I do. She just drives. Doesn’t t care of potholes braking or accelerating smoothly. For her cars are to drive from A to B.
She does approximately 40000miles a year

[overcoil]

It could engine mount or driveshaft.

If you put car in neutral at a standstill and rev the engine do you get a vibration ?

If you put the car in neutral at highway speed and get on the brakes do you get a vibration ?

[tonycouves]

Never tried either.
Trying tomorrow going to work and update afterwards.

[hwntime]

Was the car previously in an accident?

[tonycouves]

As said on first post
Car never crashed

[albertw]

My first guess is a bent front wheel. The shop may have repaired the cosmetic damage but didn't check the wheel shape. This would explain the vibration at a steady speed. When you get on the brakes weight is transferred to the front wheels and the sidewalls compress more. Both things would increase the vibration under hard braking.

You could do a basic check by taking the wheels off and rolling them in a straight line. If one of them rocks from side to side or up and down a bit, there's your problem.

[bimmerfile]

OP; You bought a used 2er with 18K Kms.
I assume you did not notice any vibration when you took the vehicle for test runs before you bought it or just after you bought it.
At what time after you purchased the vehicle did your 2er start to exhibit this strange behaviour?

[bryan_G01]

What tires, and tire pressure?

[tonycouves]

@Albertw - the repair shop were my wheels were taken is from an old friend that sells us all our car tires and puts up with our stresses with the cars. When the wheels came they were (and are) perfectly balanced. Shouldn’t this come up wine balancing?

@bimmerfile - I did one /two test drives but never went to highway speeds. The car was bought on a trustworthy dealership. When I drove the car home (300kms drive) I’ve noticed a small vibration but I thought to myself. This is a used car , previous owner ( a woman, and saying this has no second intentions) must not been so carefully as I am so it must be bad wheel balancing , close to tyre change or maybe in last resort brake discs. These were my thoughts when I brought the car from the dealership.
Bare in mind that this took some time to do everything I pointed out. Car at the moment ha 60000kms. Runs smoothly but with this vibration issue all along.
My last hope were changing tyres and rear discs and pads. This happen last November and it not solved the problem.

@bryan_f22 - brand new Michelin Pilot Sport 4.
Tire pressure as per owners manual

[2016M235i]

If it only vibrates when you brake, the problem is at least one warped brake rotor. The only other remote possibility is a bent hub shaft or loose caliper bolts.

[albertw]

Originally Posted by tonycouves

@Albertw - the repair shop were my wheels were taken is from an old friend that sells us all our car tires and puts up with our stresses with the cars. When the wheels came they were (and are) perfectly balanced. Shouldn’t this come up wine balancing?

If the wheel were bent it might be possible to add weights to compensate for the change in mass distribution, so the wheel would spin without vibration on the balancer. However, that doesn't guarantee that the tread will follow a perfect circle as the wheel spins. Once the tire is on the ground it will try to follow a snake-like path on the road, and it can't so the motion will be transferred to the car and you'll feel it as vibration.

A good technician should have noticed that the tread didn't run true, but there must have been some mistake made somewhere and this possibility seems to match all you've observed and the changes you've made.

I've had a few warped brake rotors, and none of them caused any vibration when the brakes were off - only when the brakes were applied. I suppose a warped rotor could cause constant vibration if the brakes were dragging, but the technicians should have noticed that and fixed it when they replaced the rotors and pads.

The technician should have checked the front rotors for runout before replacing them. If they were out of limits the new ones should have reduced the vibration when the brakes were applied. It is extremely unlikely the new rotors were warped from the factory. Possibly, if your brakes were dragging they might have overheated the rotors and if the new rotors had some internal defects they might have warped again before you tested the brakes at highway speeds.

I think you need someone else to check all the work that has been done by your shop before looking for less likely explanations. It's pretty easy to do a rough check on whether a wheel rolls true, and a $50 dial gauge and an improvised bracket for it will let you check the runout of the rotors while you've got the wheels off. If you don't want to do it yourself, take it to a different shop.

[tonycouves]

Originally Posted by ScottSinger

It could engine mount or driveshaft.

If you put car in neutral at a standstill and rev the engine do you get a vibration ?

If you put the car in neutral at highway speed and get on the brakes do you get a vibration ?

Tried both. No different vibration at standstill.
And braking in Neutral same vibration as of it was in Drive.


The major issue here is that I lack of time to be going from mechanic to mechanic and try to hear different opinions. I know this is what I have to do but my line of work and also my running trainings don t leave me a lot of flexibility to work on these issues.
Im one of those guys that pays to get the job done. Meaning that , on my previous visits to the dealerships, if they say I have to replace something , most of the times I believe it and give approval to do so with the hope that this will solve my problem.
Understand me as a person that likes that all is working well (don t we all?) Don t mind to get my hands dirty but this kind of stuff I think is out of my reach.
Never I had such a insistent problem and even trying to forget it, as a car guy (like all you guys) it’s impossible.
Like said before the last visit where I replaced rear brake discs and pads, when I had the car back and noticed the vibration was less but still there, sent them an email informing them, that despite all of the replacements, problem was still there. They were the first to tell me to go back there so they can go deeper on their search to resolve this but I’m “afraid” that this will drain my accounts on a rampage of part replacement.
“Hi sir. Problem is solved we just replaced 75% of the car and now you have a 4 series so the bill is 30000usd. Took a while but now it doesn’t t vibrate. ”

I will go upon all of the suggestions above. Also will try, on a dealership, if they can lend me a set of wheels from another car to see if the problem is in fact on the wheels.
Upon this conclusion will try to dig deeper and see what it can be.

[tonycouves]

@albertw - in order to take off the wheels I need to go somewhere (mechanic etc) because my car , since it came with runflats ( not anymore ) doesn’t have a jack to lift the car.
Also what do you mean with 50$ Dial gauge and improvised bracket?

[overcoil]

Originally Posted by tonycouves

@albertw - in order to take off the wheels I need to go somewhere (mechanic etc) because my car , since it came with runflats ( not anymore ) doesn’t have a jack to lift the car.
Also what do you mean with 50$ Dial gauge and improvised bracket?

The Dial Gauge can check brake discs, hubs and wheels that are out of line or not tightened to spec. Most use a strong magnetic base that mounts to something immovable and then it almost like placing a record player needle on a record - a metal pin is layed on a hub or brake disc, and then rotating by hand the hub or disc and watching the amount of wobble on a needle gauge.

__________
But to some things you can do to pinpoint the issue.

I had you rev the car in neutral to feel if maybe the engine mounts were bad. If you revved in neutral and got a knocking then that might mean the engine mounts were very bad.

And putting the car in neutral while coasting and braking, to try to eliminate the drivetrain ( engine, transmission ) as a cause.

Now when you just feel a vibration in the steering wheel it often means an issue with the front wheels; warped brakes, bad front ball joints - which are also checked with car in air and grab tire at 12 & 6 and try to knock back and forth and feel and hear of excessive movement.

When the vibration just comes from the seat or you feel it just in your bottom, usually a sign the problem is coming from the rear wheels.


It’s not uncommon for novice technicians or basic equipment to miss certain balance issues, sometimes a dealership is recommended https://www.hunter.com/oem/bmw

That’s all I know about balance. Oh, and sometimes a driveshaft can cause vibrations - but I’m not sure of the tips to help isolate an out of round driveshaft except in some cases using a Dial Gauge - not sure your description point to a driveshaft.

[aerobod]

Sometimes you can determine the source of a vibration by looking at the vibration frequency. You can use a free app such as VibSensor to collect the vibration data by resting an iOS or Android device on the centre console or other relatively firm surface.

At 100km/h every rotation of the wheel is at about 13Hz, the driveshaft at about 45Hz depending on diff ratio and engine at various frequencies depending on revs. You can also determine from the vibration direction what the problem may be, for example a bent wheel or hub should give a lateral or vertical vibration but not longitudinal vibration at 13Hz at 100km/h.

[CP911]

This sucks for OP, but it's a used car. It's not like the dealership is going to do a full shakedown test at all speeds or go through each car with a fine-toothed comb before buffing out the scratches and turning it around for sale. People trade in lemons or problem/accident cars. It's usually the reason someone trades a car into a dealership to begin with. It's easy and mostly hassle free and dealerships are quick to make an offer based on year and mileage alone. There is always risk in buying a used car. Kind of hard to blame anyone here but OP for not doing enough due diligence before buying. I've been there myself... got burned on a used car that had been in an accident when the seller assured me it was perfect. Lesson learned. I won't buy another car without a full paint meter inspection as well as an underbody inspection on a lift.

OP - Sorry to hear this is leaving a sour taste in your mouth for BMW. I sincerely hope you get it resolved soon so you can start enjoying the car like it was meant to be enjoyed!

[tonycouves]

First of all want to thank all the opinions and suggestions but i’ve realized that I am chasing ghosts with this.
I have really thought in selling the car and buy a new one and get over it but I think I can figure this out.
With all of your suggestions and opinions I am going to start working to discover what the hell is making the car have these symptoms.
I have already called my friend at the wheel shop and told him to get me a set of wheels and test them to see if the car reacts the same.
If yes , the problem are not the wheels or tyres. If not and does not vibrate problem found.
Next will hand over the car to my other friend that was chief of mechanic on Bmw dealership (and also the main mechanic of bmw racing team here) that eats Bmws at breakfast lunch and dinner at his private garage and he will strip this down to find the problem.
It’s a person of my total trust so can’t be worst that what it is.
At this moment I think all of opinions and suggestions will have no positive effect if not putting them in practice.
Again I thank everyone for losing some time on helping a guy out and will keep you posted of everything that’s been done and what I have discovered.

Last resort I can burn the whole car and let insurance give me new one
We are having a lot strikes here in Portugal so who can say I can’t be hit with a cocktail Molotov on my drive to work

[hwntime]

Originally Posted by tonycouves

First of all want to thank all the opinions and suggestions but i’ve realized that I am chasing ghosts with this.
I have really thought in selling the car and buy a new one and get over it but I think I can figure this out.
With all of your suggestions and opinions I am going to start working to discover what the hell is making the car have these symptoms.
I have already called my friend at the wheel shop and told him to get me a set of wheels and test them to see if the car reacts the same.
If yes , the problem are not the wheels or tyres. If not and does not vibrate problem found.
Next will hand over the car to my other friend that was chief of mechanic on Bmw dealership (and also the main mechanic of bmw racing team here) that eats Bmws at breakfast lunch and dinner at his private garage and he will strip this down to find the problem.
It’s a person of my total trust so can’t be worst that what it is.
At this moment I think all of opinions and suggestions will have no positive effect if not putting them in practice.
Again I thank everyone for losing some time on helping a guy out and will keep you posted of everything that’s been done and what I have discovered.

Last resort I can burn the whole car and let insurance give me new one
We are having a lot strikes here in Portugal so who can say I can’t be hit with a cocktail Molotov on my drive to work

If you burn the car, make sure you delete this post beforehand to leave no evidence lol

[tonycouves]

Originally Posted by hwntime

If you burn the car, make sure you delete this post beforehand to leave no evidence lol

Who’s burning what sorry?

Keep you guys posted with updates soon

[XutvJet]

The 2 series shares all of it's drivetrain and suspension with the F2X 3 and 4 series. A Google search of "BMW 435 vibration highway" reveal people having very similar issues to you. For many, it was an out of round wheel that was missed by many shops initially. The second most common issue was worn control arm and tension strut bushings. Others had issues with a worn hub bearing or rust on the inner hub portion of the brake rotors.

First swap the wheels and see if the issue disappears. If it doesn't, begin looking at the control arm bushings and tension strut bushings. The fact that your wheels were scuffed up means the prior owner, though perhaps never wrecking the car, was not very good with spacial awareness and routinely hit curbs, potholes, etc. German hard parts tend to be robust. The soft stuff like bushings, not so much. You need to remove these parts to inspect the bushings.

Lastly, these cars aren't exactly the smoothest, noise, and vibration free cars out there. They have short wheelbases and fairly stiff suspensions. I don't have any vibrations in the car, but my passenger seat vibrates around at speed. I can't say I've ever had a car that I haven't seen this happen.